1999 version of Chinese Democracy

[JAxlMorrison]

No matter what, "There Was A Time" is one of my favorite songs of all time. Loved all the demos, love the final version, wish I'd seen it live more than once.

I'd like to hear what Ashba has done with OMG, however, if that's confirmed to be true.

[Haters Gonna Hate]

Liked the CD TWAT better than the demo form 1999 but I do like the IRS form 1999 better

[Voodoochild]

I'd like to hear what Ashba has done with OMG, however, if that's confirmed to be true.

It isnt. I guess the guy assumed it was Ashba on those live rehearsals low-quality recordings we all heard.

[Georgy Zhukov]

I was hoping Ron did some crazy stuff on Oh My God. Hearing the demo and the 2001 Rio version proved how much work needed go be done. Same with Silkworms.

Axl got shit for taking so long, but he only wanted to make the record sound good. That meant finding producers that can achieve that sound. Any producer will love the final product but artists are not always happy sigh their final results. He finally found Constanzo and was finally able to finish the album.

Edited May 5, 2012 by BirdCatcher

[stumbleine]

I just want to say that I'm a fan of Chinese democracy.

not as a Guns album but as an Axl solo project.

my favourite is the acoustic Catcher from that Paris latenight show.

that's the most beatiful Axl moment post Guns.

[Voodoochild]

Get over it.

I was hoping Ron did some crazy stuff on Oh My God. Hearing the demo and the 2001 Rio version proved how much work needed go be done. Same with Silkworms.

Axl got shit for taking so long, but he only wanted to make the record sound good. That meant finding producers that can achieve that sound. Any producer will love the final product but artists are not always happy sigh their final results. He finally found Constanzo and was finally able to finish the album.

Actually, he produced himself with Caram.

[Georgy Zhukov]

Get the fuck over it. People.

I guess I worded it wrong, but I meant to say he needed a producer to help him find that sound. I don't think he was confident enough to do it himself. I don't know much about Caram but I think the problem with previous producers is that they wanted to get it done ASAP and were confident that their product was the best. Axl let's them go over their differences.

[rumandraisin]

You got lots of things wrong, man.

There was a time - Lacks the Buckethead solo but its still pretty cool, with the industrial loop Axl was going for. So, its just Paul and Robin on gutars on the first leak, maybe Axl in bits of it? I wish there was a bit on the finish album where you could safely say, "yep, thats Paul". Even live he was hard to pin point.

Paul is on that lead riff in Madagascar in the final version - done by Richard live.

where abouts, i'd love to be able to pin point some exact Paul guitar parts. Any clue as to the exact seconds? I have the multitracks so it should be easy to hear

Catcher in the Rye - Besst example of Roy Thomas bAkers extensive rehaul of the project. Everything ended up being redone apart from the vocals, first the drums were re-recorded with Brain changing the feel of the track, Josh's drumming on this and IRS is very heavy, more glam and warmer. Then came re-doing the bass with different amps, adding more guitars when Robin came back, and Buckethead and Richard, although Bucets were errased after Bumblefoots guitars were added. More sound effects and orchestra overdubs followed, hey presto, completely different song. So strange.

Not everything was redone. Robin's lead and some of Paul's rhythm are on the album version. We never heard any demo with Bucket and I find hard to believe that there is one.

True, forgot about those two things. I just assumed Robins parts were replaced as when he left in 99 Axl said they were replacing his parts so i thought they were recorded when he came back in 2000

IRS - There's two demos leaked of this, one has Buckethead and one is pre-Bucket. The first one has Josh on drums, the second has Brain aswell. Some nice spanish guitar nd drum machines on the intro to the one with Bucket/Brain, the two demos are fascinating to compare to eachother. The 2nd is stronger in my opinion, and has an additional 20 odd seconds. The first has that police siren noise which is cool, and its easier to work out who's doing what on guitars, eg the lead is Robin, the rhthym is Paul. The 2nd has different vocals, and features a Buckethead solo instead of Robin (listen to the killswitch at the very end of the solo).

What 20 additional seconds? The difference between the two is the tempo: seems like the 1999 demo was recorded from a cassete tape, which explains the hicups on the tempo. And, as far as I know, the vocals was always the same.

One is 4:08, the other is 4.29, there's an addiotional piece of music in the album version at 1.32 that has a solo over the top that sounds like it could be Robin that isnt in the demos.

But we do have an earlier demo circa 2004, pre-bumblefoot, featuring some more acoustic stuff in the opening verse.

the Buckethead accoustic is still the same, nothing has changed on that.

my bad, it just sounds higher in the mix

Better - Circa 2002, Better was first mentioned from in 2003 iirc when Axl spun some tracks at a strip club.

Better was only mentioned in 2006, about a month before it leaked.

"Our first leaks [presumably Better, There Was A Time and IRS, leaked in early '06] were from using a sound system in a strip club in the early hours when it was basically empty. I went there to play the tracks for someone I was interested in working with. I'd gone there with a guy who worked band security, who was allegedly somehow related to the owners, feeling it was a bit more of a protected environment than it turned out to be." (Axl, Billboard, 02/06/09)

Riad and the Bedouins - Bumblefoot replaced Buckets solo, not much else seems to be that different. The demo has a snippet pf weird vocals near the end. Thats about it, the Buckethead solo wasnt one of his best, alot of tapping, not very melodic, not that the Bumble solo was much better.

Lots of things different. There is a new intro (with that stolen sample), Bumblefoot did rhythm with some licks all over the song, throwing Robin's rhythm to the left channel mixed with Paul Tobias (which made the song lose its fat and groovy sound IMO). And the original solo was made by Robin and Bucket.

The cut between Robins part into BUckets is at 2.33 i take it?

Oh My God - Axl claimed it was just a demo, i guess everything was back then in his eyes, but it does show you how quickly the band COULD work. It started life as a demo idea between Dizzy and paul in 1997, then forgotten about. In July 1999 the band finish it, Axl writes and adds vocals then its edited, mixed, mastered all within a few weeks. Sounds dreadfull, the quality, compared to the other songs on the sound track. Has some interesting parts, especially the pseudo disco bridge where you can really hear Pauls guitar work and the drum/bass combo is ball busting! Dj Ashba recently made that guitar line n the chorus so much more prominent and funky. No one quite knows who did the two solo's.

Where did you get this thing about DJ's guitar line in the chorys? And if youre asking about who did the two solos in the demo, its 1st Dave Navarro and 2nd half is Paul Tobias.

From the soundchecks recently, it was Ashba doing the lead lick in the chorus, that is actually in the demo only very quiet. Could you list the times that the different solos start please I find this all fascinating haha!

Silkworms - Apparently the chorus is gone, not that it was anything great, just that one line. Played at alternating speeds is 2001, the best version being the first time on NYE House of Blues, with the fierce synth opening and super fast aggressive metal behind Axl's venomous vocals. I imagine this'll sound so much better on the next album if there is one.

Indeed, I agree with everything on this.

[iftheworld]

1999 CITR for one reason. Brian May. I know why he cut him out, but it baffles me. His solo mid song dominates the updated versions.

Edited May 5, 2012 by iftheworld

[Naupis]

People underestimate the effect roy barker had, when he told axl his songs suck.

To have been a fly on the wall in that conversation would have been amazing. Axl wasn't far removed from being the rockstar in the world, and then a label exec tells him to go back to the drawing board because the stuff isn't good. Axl likely blew a gasket the likes of which we have never seen before.

[Georgy Zhukov]

Wonder how Roy felt when Axl told him his production sucked?

[shotgunblues1978]

For what it's worth Tommy pins the blame for the album's delays mostly on the shoulders of Roy Thomas Baker and Jimmy Iovine

Stating that RTB came in and made them re-record everything over and over again when the effect he was looking for could've been handled during the mixing and mastering portion.

There's no doubt that RTB did some absurd shit (like making Brain re-record all of Josh Freese's parts in one take - so the entire final drum track on TWAT, for example, was recorded in one take), and drove costs through the roof. RTB produced a lot of great records in the 70s and 80s but hasn't done much of note since 1990 and stories like this make you wonder if he sort of went off the deep end at some point.

Regardless, I think the biggest thing that hurt the album's chances in that era was the change in management at Geffen Records when UMG bought up Polygram. The Geffen execs who had been behind the CD project, approved the $10 million advance, etc. were all fired or reassigned in early 1999 when the album was on the verge of being completed. In essence, according to Tommy (and also Tom Zutaut) what they needed in 1999/2000/2001 was someone who was going to come in and say the album's good enough, let's wrap it up instead of saying you need to change this, re-record that, etc. The Tommy interview was quite fascinating where he talked about how the recording process and mismanagement of the process from the business/label side of things was a perfect representation of everything that has caused the record industry to collapse in the past decade.

At the end of the day, I think it worked out in terms of the album matching Axl's "vision," and I think that Ron added a lot of depth/warmth to the album with his work that really elevated a handful of the songs (particularly the title track and Catcher). But it's certainly a fascinating thing to look back upon. I think that the 1999 album would have been a very dark, spaced out album that would've gone over pretty well in that era of rock.

[GNR 1991]

Am I the only one who's never heard the HOB or Hard Rock versions of "Silkworms"? I've only listened to the Rock in Rio version, but I hear they played it at HOB and it was different and much better?

[Haters Gonna Hate]

Am I the only one who's never heard the HOB or Hard Rock versions of "Silkworms"? I've only listened to the Rock in Rio version, but I hear they played it at HOB and it was different and much better?

I've never heard it can't find it on Youtube.

[rumandraisin]

Am I the only one who's never heard the HOB or Hard Rock versions of "Silkworms"? I've only listened to the Rock in Rio version, but I hear they played it at HOB and it was different and much better?

I've never heard it can't find it on Youtube.

I'll share it tomorrow guys, the HOB version, its much much faster and the synths in the opening are like some techno metal shit. Too fucking good xD And Axl is venomous, spitting out the lyrics, and Brain is going crazy on the drums. so good.

[hudsonsaul]

Chinese Democracy would have been far better sales wise if released in and around Oh My God, and if it had that aggressive vibe, new guns would have been more accepted too, critics less bitter, and plenty of more time to allow the band to grow and release more tunes.

CD's biggest problem imo, was the over production of every tiny bit of the album, and far too many slower numbers the average listener gets bored too easily and doesn't give the album time to settle in.

All imo.

[Voodoochild]

I'll just leave this here.

[RandallFlagg]

It's just bizarre seeing how much was there around 1999, I wonder what Axl worked on for the next nine years, you could make a fair few records worth in that time.

[Voodoochild]

I'll just leave this here.

Ok, if that doesnt work, try this one:

[Apollo]

I think the 2008 version is undoubtedly a better album in terms of the meticulous crafting and production

I disagree. The final versions of the songs is overproduced

Agreed. Sometimes less is more.

CD is one of my favorite albums of all time. But some of the leaks were better.

[Estranged Reality]

i've always felt the older '99 demos were a little more lush and you could sense the "movie soundtrack influence" that axl spoke of before (or maybe it was someone else who mentioned it). i feel many of the additions to the final tracks made them overall sound better - or at least harder-rocking (such as the extra solo and drum fill at the end in I.R.S., the heavier hip-hop beat in TWAT, the soloing in CITR) - but certainly these are interesting, and as much as I like the final version of CITR, I forgot how good Brian May's solo was.

[Chris 55]

I never understood why the demos had such a crappy sound quality to them. Wasn't Catcher recorded on a cassette tape?

[Voodoochild]

I never understood why the demos had such a crappy sound quality to them. Wasn't Catcher recorded on a cassette tape?

If you're talking about those 1999 demos, they were bootleged on cassete or something. The recordings were probably rough mixes too, as the drums sounds weird and the center channel is very mudded.

[GnR Chris]

Wow, the version of IRS in the first post is better than the final version on the record. I have an old demo or bootleg of IRS but not THAT one. Never heard this one before. Too bad it didn't stick.

[One.In.A.Million]

Well I have a feeling that the version of IRS in the first post is a remix of some sort, and not an original demo. The reason is because for some reason Robins first solo is put as the second main solo, the one that Buckethead did on the album, and Ron live. Robins solo should be the first one, not the second...

The first ever IRS that leaked was also cleaner than this one, but I also always loved that acoustic intro on the demo. I know Robins first solo wasn't on the original demo, but I have a feeling that the second solo was similar to the Buckethead one, and not Robins one.

And lastly wasn't the first time we heard Robins solo on this track, during the batches of leaks in 2007?. So Robins solo never even existed until he started playing it live in 06, so it definitely wouldn't have been on a 1999 version of IRS.