Exile on Main Street vs. Physical Graffiti

[Guest Len B'stard]

With the greatest respect Mike, i think you have something of a skewed notion of peoples awareness of these sorts of things, perhaps i'm wrong but, OK, i'm from England, you take your average inner city school in London and get all those 15/16 yr old boys and girls and start askin' em who Led Zeppelin are, i don't reckon as many of em would know who they are as you think might.

And then entire communities like black communities, hispanic communities, asian communities, a lot of these don't grow up being exposed to that sort of music as kids or around the house and we live in a very very multicultural society these days.

Whereabouts are you from Mike?

In my first school, which was mostly populated by white kids, high school i'm talkin' here, there was a contigent of like....8 to 10 guys who hung around together and had band t shirts and long hair and were into that kinda music and in the school i went to after which was a more shitter school, had mostly asian kids like myself, there literally wasn't one kid with long hair and band t shirts and NOBODY liked rock bands...and this is 1999 i'm talking about when i left high school.

I'm not saying Zep are totally unknown, some obscure garage band, fucking far far from it and i'm sure out of the ones you asked a lot of them would at least be able to say "they're some old band, aren't they?" but this idea that they have like, Michael Jackson levels of awareness/popularity anymore just isn't true.

I come from an Asian background myself and i'm not talking all first generation either and i can pretty much guarantee you that a vast majority of em, the people i know at least, local community, 95% of them ain't got a clue who Led Zeppelin are and out of the 5% they could probably tell you they are a band but no one'd be able to name a song or a band member.

I think a good two generations have grown up without rock n roll being the popular music of the day so it's ridiculous to suggest that awareness levels of Led Zeppelin are still that high.

Also, and i don't wanna offend here...but bands like The Beatles and The Stones, they, very marginally, have a lot more of a universal appeal than something like Zep because they are more typical if you like, Zep are heavy, bordering on metal type stuff, with the imagery and the long hair and the loudness and the whole attendant stereotype and there is still a vast cross-section of people who are put off by that per se, there's a stereotype there that still exists by virtue of which people are immediately turned off by bands like Zep, i'm not saying it's right or fair but it is what it is.

I mean the average young lads response in my day was "urgh, you listen those greasy metallers? Are you a headbanger? They look like they've got fleas!", to a whole big cross-section of society, people like that, bands that look like that are the subject of ridicule. Now i ain't sayin' it's right but...

Don't take none of this bad by the way, i'm not having a go at you, they'd be the same with bands i like, worse probably, Zep might look like something the cat dragged in but they are pretty much inoffensive caricatures whereas the Sex Pistols to them would just be fuckin' freaks and sickos and highly abnormal.

Edited May 9, 2013 by sugaraylen

[Iron MikeyJ]

I respect your post, we all come from different places and countries. What's true in my neck of the woods may not be in yours. I am from michigan, about an hour north of detroit. I am 31 years old, married, with 2 kids. I really have no idea what teens are into these days, nor do I care. Saying that, rock is still very prevelant in my community. Rock, country, and hip hop are still the big 3. And since rock is still very much prevelant, zeppelin being one of the kings, are still very prevelant. Not like they were in 1977, but at this moment id say they are more popular than nirvana or any grunge band. At least in the 20~60 demographic.

Most white kids in the usa grow up on rock and country. Because that's what our parents listened to. By the time I was 13 I had heard zeppelin 4 hundreds of times because of my father. Same goes for the beatles, stones, and all the big bands.

I partially agree with what you said about zeppelin not being the most "universal" band. Which is part of the reason why Ilike them. I disagree about the stones being more "widly appealing." Because I don't see them that way at all, you have to like good ole rock n roll to like the rolling stones. The beatles are the most universally appealing band. My daughter is 8 years old and loves the beatles, so does my grandma that is 80. No other "rock" band appeals to such a wide audience, zeppelin included.

Here's the thing for me about zeppelin, they are like a fine wine, or a nice glass of cogniac. While other bands are "gateway" bands imo. People don't get into rock because of bands like zeppelin or floyd. They are the bands you have to work your way to. Aerosmith, the beatles, ac/dc, and even the stones are what I call "gateway" bands. You start out with these bands, and eventually work your way to bands like zeppelin or floyd. Which is how it should be. I agree that the stones may be easier to get into than zeppelin, but that hardly makes them better. Is beer better than cogniac or a fine wine? No, but more people drink beer.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Do you think perhaps in inner city Detroit the ratio of kids that knew about em would be a little different perhaps?

And as far as what most white kids grow up listening to, you're the same age as me roughly (29) so i figure our parents generations are the same but you kids around these days that were born in 1989 and 1990, those parents, even the white ones i think, weren't necessarily listening to your classic rock n roll. I guess your point, broadly speaking, still stands but i don't think it's quite the same way as people like us (and in our age group) grew up with rock n roll as sort of a standard.

To be really honest, even we didn't in the same way as the preceeding generation, far from it, in mine and yourses youth Hip Hop fucking exploded and rock has been slowly seeping out of the charts since then and today it's hardly there at all but then to lean on your side a little the charts aren't necessarily a reflection of ALL listening habits or awareness levels musically speaking.

[Iron MikeyJ]

Hip hop def has had a huge influence on me and society in general, and its something my parents hated. So there is more variety in music today than there was 30 years ago. And I'm sure in the inner city of detroit hip hop is pretty much all they listen to.

So ya your back ground and race helps determine the music you listen to growing up.

[moreblack]

That's the thing with Zeppelin, it's not like they released a slew of #1 singles or any singles really. So how do so many people know/like them? From my perspective, the people I meet that I hang out with, are mostly rock fans. And it's almost impossible to get into rock without eventually hearing about Led Zeppelin. I mean, shit. Modern bands like Finger Eleven or Alter Bridge will cover their songs at their concerts. And just this past week at the Revolver Golden Gods, Halestorm did Whole Lotta Love with the singer of Disturbed. So even some of today's bands will push them to their fans.

[DieselDaisy]

When I was in high school (i am 31 and in the uk) classic rock was not liked at all. I was in a group of friends who liked classic rock bands (Stones, Zep, GN'R, Hendrix) and metal (Metallica, Megadeth) and they represented, probably 2% of the high school musical tastes. The rest of the school was into pop (cheesy spice girls shit), hip hop, rave and techno - those were the dominant musical genres. There was the whole Brit Pop thing and still a few grunge leftovers but people into the Stones, Zeppelin and Hendrix were few and far between. A few of the Oasis fans also liked The Beatles but that is it.

This was circa, 1995-8. I cannot imagine what it is like now.

[moreblack]

94-98 saw a resurgence from them into the public eye as well, with the Unledded album Page & Plant made, as well as the release of Encomium which featured many of the day's artists covering their favorite Zep tunes. I remember the STP Version of Dancing Days being on the rock station a lot.

[LightningBolt]

I admittedly haven't read everything posted before this, but I want to chime in anyways. I think that a lot of these older bands are catching a second wind among younger people these days. I'm 19 years old and in college right now, and it is not difficult at all to find people wearing Led Zeppelin, Beatles, or Pink Floyd shirts. You can hear people playing the music from their dorm rooms. A lot of stores have these classic band t-shirts for sale all the time. In high school it was easy to find people into older classic rock bands, as well. For what it's worth (not sure it's worth much), I've grown up in the mid-Atlantic region of the United States my whole life, which I believe is probably the most diverse area of the country.

If I were to guess, I'd really say the Internet has probably given younger people an easier way to find these bands compared to even ten years ago. I'm also under the impression that things like classic rock radio have gotten bigger over the past couple of years. It's just so easy to find all this music now. It's not like the stuff needs to be played on the radio for people to hear about it nowadays. I wouldn't necessarily say that a band like Led Zeppelin is common knowledge among people my age, per se, but they're not exactly unknown, either.

[Vincent Vega]

Do you think perhaps in inner city Detroit the ratio of kids that knew about em would be a little different perhaps?

And as far as what most white kids grow up listening to, you're the same age as me roughly (29) so i figure our parents generations are the same but you kids around these days that were born in 1989 and 1990, those parents, even the white ones i think, weren't necessarily listening to your classic rock n roll. I guess your point, broadly speaking, still stands but i don't think it's quite the same way as people like us (and in our age group) grew up with rock n roll as sort of a standard.

To be really honest, even we didn't in the same way as the preceeding generation, far from it, in mine and yourses youth Hip Hop fucking exploded and rock has been slowly seeping out of the charts since then and today it's hardly there at all but then to lean on your side a little the charts aren't necessarily a reflection of ALL listening habits or awareness levels musically speaking.

I was born in '90 and I grew up listening to the Stones, Led Zeppelin, Jim Carroll, Patti Smith, The Cranberries, Simon & Garfunkel, and a lot of things in that vein.

[Randy Lahey]

Led Zeppelin are one of the top 5 best-selling music artists of all time.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Randy Lahey

[wasted]

Kashmir v Tumbling Dice.

I think Kashmir is more well known.

[Guest Len B'stard]

When I was in high school (i am 31 and in the uk) classic rock was not liked at all. I was in a group of friends who liked classic rock bands (Stones, Zep, GN'R, Hendrix) and metal (Metallica, Megadeth) and they represented, probably 2% of the high school musical tastes. The rest of the school was into pop (cheesy spice girls shit), hip hop, rave and techno - those were the dominant musical genres. There was the whole Brit Pop thing and still a few grunge leftovers but people into the Stones, Zeppelin and Hendrix were few and far between. A few of the Oasis fans also liked The Beatles but that is it.

This was circa, 1995-8. I cannot imagine what it is like now.

There you go, there's actually a reflection of what i'm talkin' about, thats how shit actually really was and now its worse than that so, y'know, one can live ones life on a forum and read billboard stats and say, hey, everybody and their mother knows who Led Zeppelin are but the fact is they don't and that numbers getting fewer and fewer.

Do you think perhaps in inner city Detroit the ratio of kids that knew about em would be a little different perhaps?

And as far as what most white kids grow up listening to, you're the same age as me roughly (29) so i figure our parents generations are the same but you kids around these days that were born in 1989 and 1990, those parents, even the white ones i think, weren't necessarily listening to your classic rock n roll. I guess your point, broadly speaking, still stands but i don't think it's quite the same way as people like us (and in our age group) grew up with rock n roll as sort of a standard.

To be really honest, even we didn't in the same way as the preceeding generation, far from it, in mine and yourses youth Hip Hop fucking exploded and rock has been slowly seeping out of the charts since then and today it's hardly there at all but then to lean on your side a little the charts aren't necessarily a reflection of ALL listening habits or awareness levels musically speaking.

I was born in '90 and I grew up listening to the Stones, Led Zeppelin, Jim Carroll, Patti Smith, The Cranberries, Simon & Garfunkel, and a lot of things in that vein.

Shut up Miser

[DieselDaisy]

Nobody cared about Unledded in my school - trust me on that. If it was hardcore techno it may have went down better than an acoustic album by a couple of fifty somethings.

Edited May 10, 2013 by DieselDaisy

[moreblack]

Even if the numbers getting fewer, it's a case of taking a teaspoon out of the ocean. You gotta think, that stuft's still around for a reason, and it's not because people are leaving it behind.

Edited May 10, 2013 by moreblack

[Randy Lahey]

People will still be listening to Zeppelin in a hundred years. They've stood the test of time and are second only to The Beatles in terms of popularity.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Randy Lahey

[Guest Len B'stard]

Even if the numbers getting fewer, it's a case of taking a teaspoon out of the ocean. You gotta think, that stuft's still around for a reason, and it's not because people are leaving it behind.

Well i'm glad we've at least got someone to admit to the fuckin' shit, through gritted teeth if nothing else It's just reality man, it's not a negative reflection on the shit, it's not to say that it's maybe lesser than something, it's just a fact when shit gets older it ain't at the forefront anymore, it just happens. Yeah Randy people'll be listening to it in a 100 years just like people somewhere are probably listening to Leadbelly too right now but that don't make it the music of the day, does it?

OK, no one said it's gonna fade and die, no one said it's been wiped off the face of the earth, i was just making a really simple and obvious point, based on your saying that Zeppelin had a universal appeal to the point of being equivalent to "hugs and chocolate" which was you trying MASSIVELY to overstate the importance of your favorite band in the modern age.

And you can say what you like about record sales and the millions that are sold (or were once sold) but at the same time, a lot of people have been born in the last however many decades have passed since Zep were around and those people make up a lot or the majority of what the market for music is today and those people are the young of this (and couple of the preceeding generations) and hey, newsflash, they ain't all being born with parents whoose record collections consist of Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyds greatest hits and fewer still are going into schools and hanging out with their mates down the park and getting passed a copy of Led Zeppelin III, rarely do you see someone driving through a fuckin' neighbourhood listenin' to Bon Ur Stomp or whatever the fuck it's called, bobbin' their fuckin' head or whatever, it's just reality man, it's whats happenin' today, i'm sorry if that bothers anybody but i didn't fuckin' make it, i'm just callin' it.

Teaspoon outta the ocean, more like the Zep fans are the teaspoon and the oceans getting bigger with each generation, that analogy fits a bit more accurately i'd say. It's amazing people and their ability to fuckin' delude themselves. And to what ends too, i don't understand why it's done. I mean, what do you achieve by blagging yourself like that? I mean i love The Sex Pistols but i don't walk around thinking that they seriously are as relevant now to people and kids today as they were in 1977, no matter how much i love them and how many albums i have and gigs i've seen, why would i do that, do you think it makes them better in your mind or...? I dunno, i'd like that explained to me.

After a while, when no ones listening to bands anymore, even the term MOST POPULAR band begins to lose some of it's weight, don't you think?

I just can't believe sitting here that there are perfectly reasonable people out there that can bluff themselves into having the nerve to suggest something as ridiculous as the idea that Led Zeppelins fanbase are growing at the rate of some sort of population exploision or something

Edited May 10, 2013 by sugaraylen

[wasted]

When aliens land we'll give them an ipod of music and Shrillex and Bieber will vaporize them.

[Randy Lahey]

It's obvious you have a personal bias against Led Zeppelin. Kids today can hit a couple buttons and download the entire discography of these classic bands. My parents didn't listen to Led Zeppelin and I still discovered them and got into them.

People in a hundred years will likely listen to Zeppelin and all these other monumental bands in the same way that people today still listen to classical music.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Randy Lahey

[Guest Len B'stard]

It's obvious you have a personal bias against Led Zeppelin. Kids today can hit a couple buttons and download the entire discography ot these classic bands. My parents didn't listen to Led Zeppelin and I still discovered them and got into them.

People in a hundred years will likely listen to Zeppelin and all these other monumental bands in the same way that people today still listen to classical music.

And this bias is reflected in my post by way of...? What exactly? I'm not particularly a fan of Led Zeppelin, no but are you saying you can really dispute what i've been saying there, if you can i'd like you to, i'd like anyone too. Yes i do have a bias against Led Zeppelin but please don't try and make me out to be so childish that i'd dispute facts just to get people to agree with me that Led Zeppelin suck cuz thats not even what i'm trying to say here.

How does it reflect a bias of any sort whatsoever to state that Led Zeppelin are not as popular as they used to be and the analogy of disliking them being similar to disliking hugs and chocolate is totally totally false because it's simply putting them up on too high a pedestal, they are just...not...that...pop-u-lar....any....more.

Again, sorry, bias or no bias thats a fact. You really really REALLY think the appeal of Zeppelin was EVER that universal, seriously? You reckon long hair and loud guitars and solos and all that has ever been that universally respected?

I think the problem arises when you start to think that your type of people are the only fuckin' people in the world. The fact is every single thing you say completely avoids the point i was making and to be quite honest it's actually a brilliant reflection of whats being tossed around in the Dad Rock thread, of the deification of these things and putting them up on a pedestal and treating them like they're fuckin' holy, it's hilairious, when really, what did i actually say, that they're not universally popular to the point of being on the level of "hugs and chocolate" and any dislike of theirs to be immediately put down to being someone that just hates whatever other people like, THAT is just ridiculous.

And look at the responses it's illicited, "these monumental bands will be listened to like classical music 100 years from now" yeah, really? Well thats great man but whats that got to do with what i was saying?

Hugs and chocolate, i love it

Edited May 10, 2013 by sugaraylen

[Randy Lahey]

It's obvious you have a personal bias against Led Zeppelin. Kids today can hit a couple buttons and download the entire discography ot these classic bands. My parents didn't listen to Led Zeppelin and I still discovered them and got into them.

People in a hundred years will likely listen to Zeppelin and all these other monumental bands in the same way that people today still listen to classical music.

And this bias is reflected in my post by way of...? What exactly? I'm not particularly a fan of Led Zeppelin, no but are you saying you can really dispute what i've been saying there, if you can i'd like you to, i'd like anyone too. Yes i do have a bias against Led Zeppelin but please don't try and make me out to be so childish that i'd dispute facts just to get people to agree with me that Led Zeppelin suck cuz thats not even what i'm trying to say here.

How does it reflect a bias of any sort whatsoever to state that Led Zeppelin are not as popular as they used to be and the analogy of disliking them being similar to disliking hugs and chocolate is totally totally false because it's simply putting them up on too high a pedestal, they are just...not...that...pop-u-lar....any....more.

Again, sorry, bias or no bias thats a fact. You really really REALLY think the appeal of Zeppelin was EVER that universal, seriously? You reckon long hair and loud guitars and solos and all that has ever been that universally respected?

I think the problem arises when you start to think that your type of people are the only fuckin' people in the world.

Do you think they would be one of the top 5 best selling artists in music history if they didn't have universal appeal?

[wasted]

I doubt there will ever be better rock than Zepp or the Beatles etc. There will be other stuff, maybe people will get into something different but nobody will top the 70s.

[Guest Len B'stard]

It's obvious you have a personal bias against Led Zeppelin. Kids today can hit a couple buttons and download the entire discography ot these classic bands. My parents didn't listen to Led Zeppelin and I still discovered them and got into them.

People in a hundred years will likely listen to Zeppelin and all these other monumental bands in the same way that people today still listen to classical music.

And this bias is reflected in my post by way of...? What exactly? I'm not particularly a fan of Led Zeppelin, no but are you saying you can really dispute what i've been saying there, if you can i'd like you to, i'd like anyone too. Yes i do have a bias against Led Zeppelin but please don't try and make me out to be so childish that i'd dispute facts just to get people to agree with me that Led Zeppelin suck cuz thats not even what i'm trying to say here.

How does it reflect a bias of any sort whatsoever to state that Led Zeppelin are not as popular as they used to be and the analogy of disliking them being similar to disliking hugs and chocolate is totally totally false because it's simply putting them up on too high a pedestal, they are just...not...that...pop-u-lar....any....more.

Again, sorry, bias or no bias thats a fact. You really really REALLY think the appeal of Zeppelin was EVER that universal, seriously? You reckon long hair and loud guitars and solos and all that has ever been that universally respected?

I think the problem arises when you start to think that your type of people are the only fuckin' people in the world.

Do you think they would be one of the top 5 best selling artists in music history if they didn't have universal appeal?

They could be number 1 for all it matters to the point i was making because it ain't the day in which the vast bulk of those records were sold Randy dear, what was universal appeal in 1969 isn't necessarily the same in 2013.

[Randy Lahey]

It's obvious you have a personal bias against Led Zeppelin. Kids today can hit a couple buttons and download the entire discography ot these classic bands. My parents didn't listen to Led Zeppelin and I still discovered them and got into them.

People in a hundred years will likely listen to Zeppelin and all these other monumental bands in the same way that people today still listen to classical music.

And this bias is reflected in my post by way of...? What exactly? I'm not particularly a fan of Led Zeppelin, no but are you saying you can really dispute what i've been saying there, if you can i'd like you to, i'd like anyone too. Yes i do have a bias against Led Zeppelin but please don't try and make me out to be so childish that i'd dispute facts just to get people to agree with me that Led Zeppelin suck cuz thats not even what i'm trying to say here.

How does it reflect a bias of any sort whatsoever to state that Led Zeppelin are not as popular as they used to be and the analogy of disliking them being similar to disliking hugs and chocolate is totally totally false because it's simply putting them up on too high a pedestal, they are just...not...that...pop-u-lar....any....more.

Again, sorry, bias or no bias thats a fact. You really really REALLY think the appeal of Zeppelin was EVER that universal, seriously? You reckon long hair and loud guitars and solos and all that has ever been that universally respected?

I think the problem arises when you start to think that your type of people are the only fuckin' people in the world.

Do you think they would be one of the top 5 best selling artists in music history if they didn't have universal appeal?

They could be number 1 for all it matters to the point i was making because it ain't the day in which the vast bulk of those records were sold Randy dear, what was universal appeal in 1969 isn't necessarily the same in 2013.

What has universal appeal in 2013?

Edited May 10, 2013 by Randy Lahey

[Guest Len B'stard]

It's obvious you have a personal bias against Led Zeppelin. Kids today can hit a couple buttons and download the entire discography ot these classic bands. My parents didn't listen to Led Zeppelin and I still discovered them and got into them.

People in a hundred years will likely listen to Zeppelin and all these other monumental bands in the same way that people today still listen to classical music.

And this bias is reflected in my post by way of...? What exactly? I'm not particularly a fan of Led Zeppelin, no but are you saying you can really dispute what i've been saying there, if you can i'd like you to, i'd like anyone too. Yes i do have a bias against Led Zeppelin but please don't try and make me out to be so childish that i'd dispute facts just to get people to agree with me that Led Zeppelin suck cuz thats not even what i'm trying to say here.

How does it reflect a bias of any sort whatsoever to state that Led Zeppelin are not as popular as they used to be and the analogy of disliking them being similar to disliking hugs and chocolate is totally totally false because it's simply putting them up on too high a pedestal, they are just...not...that...pop-u-lar....any....more.

Again, sorry, bias or no bias thats a fact. You really really REALLY think the appeal of Zeppelin was EVER that universal, seriously? You reckon long hair and loud guitars and solos and all that has ever been that universally respected?

I think the problem arises when you start to think that your type of people are the only fuckin' people in the world.

Do you think they would be one of the top 5 best selling artists in music history if they didn't have universal appeal?

They could be number 1 for all it matters to the point i was making because it ain't the day in which the vast bulk of those records were sold Randy dear, what was universal appeal in 1969 isn't necessarily the same in 2013.

What has universal appeal in 2013?

Not Led Zeppelin...and thats the point i'm trying to make, i don't know what does in 2013, i don't think i could answer offhand, not without thinking about it. Michael Jackson would probably be closer to it than any band i expect.

[DieselDaisy]

In the England of the time I was a teenager it was all, Human Traffic and the last vestiges of the rave scene. And the black American artists were also making a huge impact. The girls, then as now, also liked the cheesy pop. I wish it wasn't the case and my teenage years were like 'Dazed and Confused' - more dope fueled keg party, less ecstacy fueled rave - but that is the way it was! If I was to split the musical tastes of my teenage contemporaries (1995-98), of the big comprehensive working class High School I attended, I would say that...

- 80% were into hardcore techno, cheesy pop, rave, rap and hip hop. The girls tended to like the pop. The boys, the others.

- 15% were into BritPop which became big, 1995 onwards (Oasis, Blur, Manics).

- 5% were into Heavy Metal,(Metallica were the dominant force here), Grunge and Guns N' Roses who deserve their own category as a sort of, 'Classic Rock Band' only recent. You have to remember that there were people in High School who had worshipped GN'R in Middle School when they were the biggest band in the world during the Illusion Tour - I am one of them.

So you are probably only disccusing 20% who had a potential pathway into the byways of classic rock n' roll bands. The BritPoppers first port of call was The Beatles (The Anthology 1 dropped in the same year that Oasis and Blur exploded) and the Metalheads/Grungers/GN'R fans might have access to Zep and Sabbath first.

I tended to head for the metalhead group even though I was more, 'the classic rock/GN'R guy'. I seemed to have the most in common with that group (long hair. A fondness for black band t-shirts) although I despised some of the Metalhead bands (Slayer and Sepultura). I actually saw a lot of merit in Brit Pop but I didn't head in that direction for some reason. You have to remember that classroom politics also played a part in what scene you chose.

So that was what happened when I grew up.

Have you noticed, nobody liked Classical Music (which I love)? Maybe one or two of the wealthier 'horsey' set liked it - girls? Who knows? Classical Music is in an even worse position for discovery than Classic Rock so perhaps we should be grateful.

Edited May 10, 2013 by DieselDaisy