Show thread April 23rd, 2014 - Golden Gods - Los Angeles, CA - Axl receives "Ronnie James Dio Lifetime Achievement Award"

[Rovim]

Well if Axl does deserve this award, it has to be based solely on 1985-93 because the 1999-today period has been shite.

Chinese is not shit. Even most of the people that dislike it admit it had a few good songs. (I think it's a great album)

I was generalising the whole period - not specifically the album Chinese Democracy. In sum total, I do not see how anyone can regard the nugnr era as, anything less than a massive failure, both commercially and artistically.

Commercially not really a failure since Chinese sold about 3 million copies. (rock albums don't really sell that much in general) Artistically - no. It got fairly decent reviews. A lot of hardcore fans really like it too. The live shows still have an audience and the tours were pretty succsesful.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Rovim

[DieselDaisy]

Well if Axl does deserve this award, it has to be based solely on 1985-93 because the 1999-today period has been shite.

Chinese is not shit. Even most of the people that dislike it admit it had a few good songs. (I think it's a great album)

I was generalising the whole period - not specifically the album Chinese Democracy. In sum total, I do not see how anyone can regard the nugnr era as, anything less than a massive failure, both commercially and artistically.

Commercially not really a failure since Chinese sold about 3 million copies. (rock albums don't really sell that much in general) Artistically - no. It got fairly decent reviews. A lot of hardcore fans really like it too. The live shows still have an audience and the tours were pretty succsesful.

Listen, were you around in 2001? If somebody said to you back in 2001 that by 2014, Axl would still only have released one album (he mentioned a 'trilogy') and instead, would be playing the hits in Vegas with cockrockers like Ashba, would you have believed them?

There is no doubt that 1999-2014 has been a failure.

Edited March 6, 2014 by DieselDaisy

[Rovim]

Listen, were you around in 2001? If somebody said to you back in 2001 that by 2014, Axl would still only have released one album (he mentioned a 'trilogy') and instead, would be playing the hits in Vegas with cockrockers like Ashba, would you have believed them?

There is no doubt that 1999-2014 has been a failure.

I was around, yeah. One album in 20 years sucks, and it's not enough, but looking at what Axl managed to do, which is release Chinese, an album that sold 3 million copies and tour the world many times, I don't see how you can call it a failure.

The Gn'R machine is profitable, the album got mostly good reviews. That's pretty good and not at all a failure.

I guess if you compare it to the classic line up it obviously won't compare, but judged on it's own merit, it's a success.

[maynard]

Bottom line: If you lower your standards, GNR is doing just fine.

[Rovim]

Bottom line: If you lower your standards, GNR is doing just fine.

Actually, Gn'R is doing fine compared to most rock bands as a live act and Chinese was well recieved by critics. The main problem is the release of just one album in 20 years and Axl's and the Guns camp's refusal to interact with the fans and give them real updates.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Rovim

[maynard]

Bottom line: If you lower your standards, GNR is doing just fine.

Actually, Gn'R is doing fine compared to most rock bands as a live act and Chinese was well recieved by critics. The main problem is the release of just one album in 20 years and Axl's and the Guns camp's refusal to interact with the fans and give them real updates.

It's exactly what I said. If you compare GNR to other old rock bands as a live act, yeah, they're doing just fine... CD got mixed reviews mostly. You also mention the lack of new material which is frustrating but it's ok for the casual fans. So yeah.... if you lower your standards, GNR is doing just fine.

[DieselDaisy]

Listen, were you around in 2001? If somebody said to you back in 2001 that by 2014, Axl would still only have released one album (he mentioned a 'trilogy') and instead, would be playing the hits in Vegas with cockrockers like Ashba, would you have believed them?

There is no doubt that 1999-2014 has been a failure.

I was around, yeah. One album in 20 years sucks, and it's not enough, but looking at what Axl managed to do, which is release Chinese, an album that sold 3 million copies and tour the world many times, I don't see how you can call it a failure.

The Gn'R machine is profitable, the album got mostly good reviews. That's pretty good and not at all a failure.

I guess if you compare it to the classic line up it obviously won't compare, but judged on it's own merit, it's a success.

Yes but we are discussing Axl getting an award for his career here. I merely argue that it can only be for, 1985-1993. Chinese? Nobody cares about those songs. The fans who turn up at Vegas just want to hear Jungle and Sweet Child? The album completely failed to dent the public consciousness. Therefore, it can only be judged, a failure. Axl has found himself, replicating 1987 rather than building a new identity (which is, sort of what he desired in 2001). So when the judges decided to nominate Axl, you can rest assured that they did not even think of Chinese Democracy.

The touring has seen nugnr descend from an arty circus line-up, with innovative players like Bucketehad, into a cheesey greatest hits band. I cannot see how that can be viewed as, successful. I mean Axl lost his best musicians, Buckethead, Finck and Brain, through inactivity. Did he count on that back in 2001?

The whole period has been a failure. Axl lost his best band only to replace them with inferior musicians. Democracy was delayed too long, and when it was released, it was not good enough and did not sell very well. And the band have morphed into a greatest hits nostalgia act.

[Rovim]

Bottom line: If you lower your standards, GNR is doing just fine.

Actually, Gn'R is doing fine compared to most rock bands as a live act and Chinese was well recieved by critics. The main problem is the release of just one album in 20 years and Axl's and the Guns camp's refusal to interact with the fans and give them real updates.

It's exactly what I said. If you compare GNR to other old rock bands as a live act, yeah, they're doing just fine... CD got mixed reviews mostly. You also mention the lack of new material which is frustrating but it's ok for the casual fans. So yeah.... if you lower your standards, GNR is doing just fine.

Gn'R got a score of 64 on metacritic. That's not mixed reviews, it's generally favorable reviews. The shows are long and rock hard (even with Ashba in the line up) That's doing fine on any standard. No need to lower it.

[maynard]

Never thought having long shows was something to praise, specially if the show is long because of solos and breaks where the only original member of the band is not even on stage... But fine... GNR is doing well. Expecting anything more than an album with mixed reviews in 20 years is too unrealistic, I guess.

[Rovim]

Listen, were you around in 2001? If somebody said to you back in 2001 that by 2014, Axl would still only have released one album (he mentioned a 'trilogy') and instead, would be playing the hits in Vegas with cockrockers like Ashba, would you have believed them?

There is no doubt that 1999-2014 has been a failure.

I was around, yeah. One album in 20 years sucks, and it's not enough, but looking at what Axl managed to do, which is release Chinese, an album that sold 3 million copies and tour the world many times, I don't see how you can call it a failure.

The Gn'R machine is profitable, the album got mostly good reviews. That's pretty good and not at all a failure.

I guess if you compare it to the classic line up it obviously won't compare, but judged on it's own merit, it's a success.

Yes but we are discussing Axl getting an award for his career here. I merely argue that it can only be for, 1985-1993. Chinese? Nobody cares about those songs. The fans who turn up at Vegas just want to hear Jungle and Sweet Child? The album completely failed to dent the public consciousness. Therefore, it can only be judged, a failure. Axl has found himself, replicating 1987 rather than building a new identity (which is, sort of what he desired in 2001). So when the judges decided to nominate Axl, you can rest assured that they did not even think of Chinese Democracy.

The touring has seen nugnr descend from an arty circus line-up, with innovative players like Bucketehad, into a cheesey greatest hits band. I cannot see how that can be viewed as, successful. I mean Axl lost his best musicians, Buckethead, Finck and Brain, through inactivity. Did he count on that back in 2001?

The whole period has been a failure. Axl lost his best band only to replace them with inferior musicians. Democracy was delayed too long, and when it was released, it was not good enough and did not sell very well. And the band have morphed into a greatest hits nostalgia act.

But it did sold well for a rock album in 2008. The shows, with this line up are successful. Casual fans were not impressed by Chinese, and it didn't take the world by storm. But that doesn't make it a failure cause it still sold 3 million copies.

The current band's tour are way more successful compared to the 2002, and Ashba is very well recieved by casual fans (not by me)

If anything, the 2002 line up was a failure compared to the tours since 2006 and especailly from 2009 onwards.

I agree about the award given to Axl thanks for what he did with the classic line up, as AFD and UYI are classic albums and old Guns impact on the music world was huge and can never be replicated again by what came after it.

The whole period wasn't a failure cause Axl did manage to rebuild the band and tour with it for years and release an album that was well recieved by critics. I guess it's all relative, but if a failure, it was not, and still isn't. I prefer the 2002 line up over the current line up, and the classic line up over everything else, but the current line is not a failure. It does it's job live, and if Axl will ever give them a chance, I think the current members of the band can create a good Gn'R album.

Never thought having long shows was something to praise, specially if the show is long because of solos and breaks where the only original member of the band is not even on stage... But fine... GNR is doing well. Expecting anything more than an album with mixed reviews in 20 years is too unrealistic, I guess.

But it didn't get mixed reviews. It got generally favorable reviews:

http://www.metacritic.com/music/chinese-democracy/guns-n-roses

And the shows are not just long, they rock. There are way too much solo spots and cover songs, but it's still a damn good rock show, and most reviews for the live shows were very good. One album in 20 years is a problem though.

[magisme]

You have to understand that many of us, rightly or wrongly, when we use the name GNR, still have in mind the band that took the music world by storm, the band that became the biggest act on the planet, the band that was beginning to be mentioned in the same breath as bands like the Stones. Is current GNR a successful money making entity for Axl & Co.? Sure. Does current GNR deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as old GNR, let alone the Stones? Fuck no. So if you are going to say that current GNR is successful, fine, but you've lowered the fuckin' bar dramatically. No two ways about it.

[Rovim]

You have to understand that many of us, rightly or wrongly, when we use the name GNR, still have in mind the band that took the music world by storm, the band that became the biggest act on the planet, the band that was beginning to be mentioned in the same breath as bands like the Stones. Is current GNR a successful money making entity for Axl & Co.? Sure. Does current GNR deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as old GNR, let alone the Stones? Fuck no. So if you are going to say that current GNR is successful, fine, but you've lowered the fuckin' bar dramatically. No two ways about it.

Only a fool would think the current band is better then old Guns. But I did say that if you judge new Guns on it's own merit, it's not a failure.

I understand what you're saying cause I'm a huge fan of old Guns myself. I don't see it as lowering the bar. I just think it's not as good cause Axl is older, and Slash, Duff, and Izzy are not in the band anymore, and the chemistry between Axl and them was unmatched.

There is nothing Axl can do to make it as good or even close to being as good. Just like Slash will never find a better fit then Axl as a singer.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Rovim

[Little EMO Annie]

I am going!!!

[Tom-Ass]

But it did sold well for a rock album in 2008. The shows, with this line up are successful. Casual fans were not impressed by Chinese, and it didn't take the world by storm. But that doesn't make it a failure cause it still sold 3 million copies.

It sold soley on the anticipation of a new Guns N Roses record. Stores stocked the shelves with it and got screwed over. They ended up having to sell the thing for $1.99.... If Axl releases another it won't sell half that.

But I did say that if you judge new Guns on it's own merit, it's not a failure.

It's own merit? Any sucess that band has is credited to the Guns N' Roses brand name.

[saber_]

I think it's fitting Axl is receiving this award.

After all, the current version of Guns n' Roses is like the Black Sabbath with Ronnie James Dio- it's a new version of the band, with a different sound and mentality.

[Rovim]

But it did sold well for a rock album in 2008. The shows, with this line up are successful. Casual fans were not impressed by Chinese, and it didn't take the world by storm. But that doesn't make it a failure cause it still sold 3 million copies.

It sold soley on the anticipation of a new Guns N Roses record. Stores stocked the shelves with it and got screwed over. They ended up having to sell the thing for $1.99.... If Axl releases another it won't sell half that.

But I did say that if you judge new Guns on it's own merit, it's not a failure.

It's own merit? Any sucess that band has is credited to the Guns N' Roses brand name.

The bottom line is it still sold. Even when many already listened to it on Myspace, 3 million albums were sold. And you can't possibly know how many copies a follow up will sell. But probably not more then Chinese did if I had to guess.

Yes, it's own merit, as in, based solely on the shows played by new Guns and Chinese. It's a success thanks to the Guns N' Roses brand, but it's still a success. Axl and his new Guns were still required to build the reputation of the tours as something viable and profitable and they did just that. No one is denying the benefits of the brand that is Guns N' Roses.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Rovim

[Rovim]

I think it's fitting Axl is receiving this award.

After all, the current version of Guns n' Roses is like the Black Sabbath with Ronnie James Dio- it's a new version of the band, with a different sound and mentality.

Only with far less success, albums, and acceptance by fans. Instead of getting a reward, Axl should get his head out of his ass and give the fans what they want: more then one album every 20 fucking years. Allow your band to write a fresh album and release it. Give the fans real updates. A reward. What a joke.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Rovim

[volcano62]

I'm ready for new music now

[saber_]

I think it's fitting Axl is receiving this award.

After all, the current version of Guns n' Roses is like the Black Sabbath with Ronnie James Dio- it's a new version of the band, with a different sound and mentality.

Only with far less success, albums, and acceptance by fans. Instead of getting a reward, Axl should get his head out of his ass and give the fans what they want: more then one album every 20 fucking years. Allow your band to write a fresh album and release it. Give the fans real updates. A reward. What a joke.

Tough shit for those who think he doesn't deserve the award I guess. *shrug*

[Rovim]

I think it's fitting Axl is receiving this award.

After all, the current version of Guns n' Roses is like the Black Sabbath with Ronnie James Dio- it's a new version of the band, with a different sound and mentality.

Only with far less success, albums, and acceptance by fans. Instead of getting a reward, Axl should get his head out of his ass and give the fans what they want: more then one album every 20 fucking years. Allow your band to write a fresh album and release it. Give the fans real updates. A reward. What a joke.

Tough shit for those who think he doesn't deserve the award I guess. *shrug*

Yeah, we're all just a bunch of haters. It's not like Axl continues to give the fans reasons to be frustrated.

[saber_]

No need to revert to the oft-used strawman logical fallacy that people spam around here. No one called anyone a "hater." I just said "tough shit" if you think Axl doesn't deserve the award. Sorry. *more shrugging*

[Rovim]

No need to revert to the oft-used strawman logical fallacy that people spam around here. No one called anyone a "hater." I just said "tough shit" if you think Axl doesn't deserve the award. Sorry. *more shrugging*

I think you should get the award on Axl's behalf.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Rovim

[Apollo]

I think it's fitting Axl is receiving this award.

After all, the current version of Guns n' Roses is like the Black Sabbath with Ronnie James Dio- it's a new version of the band, with a different sound and mentality.

Only with far less success, albums, and acceptance by fans. Instead of getting a reward, Axl should get his head out of his ass and give the fans what they want: more then one album every 20 fucking years. Allow your band to write a fresh album and release it. Give the fans real updates. A reward. What a joke.

[Tom2112]

Jericho's proclaimed his love of ChiDem on numerous occasions (there's always a post here when he tweets about it). And he's right about SCOM, I enjoy that song a lot more at the Slash gigs I go to than the GNR ones.

Fozzy even covered "Sorry" once in concert.

Really? I'd love to hear that! any links?

[Apollo]

I'm ready for new music now

I'm feeling very luvable today.

Think how amazing it would be as an Axl fan to hear three new songs at this show or in Vegas? I know some people are obsessed with hearing a new song ONLY from the CD for the first time. But there was something really, really exciting and awesome about hearing CD, Madagascar, The Blues and Rhiad in a live setting before we heard them on CD. There is just something really cool about that, imo.

This forum would blow-up if Axl played a couple new songs in Vegas this year.