Len Cnut Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 (edited) The focus on justice is just your inability to see beyond yourself...and part of Gods eternal plan is to make it so you learn to see beyond yourself. What a load of horseshit. A HUGE load of fresh horseshit. The focus of justice is our ability to tell shitty from fair. Not a complicated concept to grasp. Which is exactly my point, whats shitty or fair...to you. It's not something best understood from a self involved perspective. There are certain things we can all agree on. Things that are unjust. It's not really being self involved, just having common sense. That's the problem with what you're saying. I don't think you're understanding me but I'm not explaining myself well either, what I'm trying to say is the focus is on justice in a personal sense, how it relates to you as opposed to attempting to get ones head around the broader ideas here. If you persist in looking at it in that kinda way you'll get nowhere. I understood you perfectly. I just don't agree with what you're saying is all. I don't believe the reason I call it injustice is cause I can't see beyond myself, or the big picture. I'm saying god doesn't exist, there is no plan, but there is injustice. It's a weak excuse.Why this horrid shit? cause that's god's plan and you can't see it cause you can't see beyond yourself, please improve yourself and open your eyes. It's dumb.But i wasnt talking about you, i was talking to Amir based on a comment that HE made where he was questioning the existing order of religion, i wasn't talking about the idea of justice per se, i was making a distinction which, in short, amounts to you won't understand this crap from a self first perspective.Also, with all due respect, you're over-simplifying with the last paragraph and, as a result, missing the idea.What do you mean 'improve' myself? Edited February 2, 2015 by Len B'stard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovim Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 The focus on justice is just your inability to see beyond yourself...and part of Gods eternal plan is to make it so you learn to see beyond yourself. What a load of horseshit. A HUGE load of fresh horseshit. The focus of justice is our ability to tell shitty from fair. Not a complicated concept to grasp. Which is exactly my point, whats shitty or fair...to you. It's not something best understood from a self involved perspective. There are certain things we can all agree on. Things that are unjust. It's not really being self involved, just having common sense. That's the problem with what you're saying. I don't think you're understanding me but I'm not explaining myself well either, what I'm trying to say is the focus is on justice in a personal sense, how it relates to you as opposed to attempting to get ones head around the broader ideas here. If you persist in looking at it in that kinda way you'll get nowhere. I understood you perfectly. I just don't agree with what you're saying is all. I don't believe the reason I call it injustice is cause I can't see beyond myself, or the big picture. I'm saying god doesn't exist, there is no plan, but there is injustice. It's a weak excuse.Why this horrid shit? cause that's god's plan and you can't see it cause you can't see beyond yourself, please improve yourself and open your eyes. It's dumb.But i wasnt talking about you, i was talking to Amir based on a comment that HE made where he was questioning the existing order of religion, i wasn't talking about the idea of justice per se, i was making a distinction which, in short, amounts to you won't understand this crap from a self first perspective.Also, with all due respect, you're over-simplifying with the last paragraph and, as a result, missing the idea.What do you mean 'improve' myself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 The focus on justice is just your inability to see beyond yourself...and part of Gods eternal plan is to make it so you learn to see beyond yourself. What a load of horseshit. A HUGE load of fresh horseshit. The focus of justice is our ability to tell shitty from fair. Not a complicated concept to grasp. Which is exactly my point, whats shitty or fair...to you. It's not something best understood from a self involved perspective. There are certain things we can all agree on. Things that are unjust. It's not really being self involved, just having common sense. That's the problem with what you're saying. I don't think you're understanding me but I'm not explaining myself well either, what I'm trying to say is the focus is on justice in a personal sense, how it relates to you as opposed to attempting to get ones head around the broader ideas here. If you persist in looking at it in that kinda way you'll get nowhere. I understood you perfectly. I just don't agree with what you're saying is all. I don't believe the reason I call it injustice is cause I can't see beyond myself, or the big picture. I'm saying god doesn't exist, there is no plan, but there is injustice. It's a weak excuse.Why this horrid shit? cause that's god's plan and you can't see it cause you can't see beyond yourself, please improve yourself and open your eyes. It's dumb.But i wasnt talking about you, i was talking to Amir based on a comment that HE made where he was questioning the existing order of religion, i wasn't talking about the idea of justice per se, i was making a distinction which, in short, amounts to you won't understand this crap from a self first perspective.Also, with all due respect, you're over-simplifying with the last paragraph and, as a result, missing the idea.What do you mean 'improve' myself? You dont have to crusade with me fella, I'm an atheist already Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amir Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 I'm an atheistLennie must be hanged for Shirk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 How are you getting away with it anyway, if im going to hell young man i'll be holding your bacon munching kuffar hand all the way As long as we agree i get the top bunk and i get to choose the tunes we'll do alright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amir Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 As long as we agree i get the top bunk and i get to choose the tunes we'll do alright Nah, wouldn't be Hell without a little bit of ELO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Len will join the Nation of Islam soon. Just, watch this space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magisme Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Can't argue with that. To go a little further I just expect the same from somebody who is telling me to act or behave a certain way. If they're doing so because of a faith based belief that isn't good enough for me I'm afraid.Why shouldn't we kill (humans, because fuck other beings, amirite)? Is it a matter of right and wrong, or is it simple pragmatism?So you're saying that without God we wouldn't know right from wrong?I'm not saying anything yet. I'm just asking you a question. Full disclosure, I do have my doubts whether we know right from wrong or whether there even is right and wrong - right and wrong proper and not pragmatics - without God or a substitute for God. In some ways, God is a placeholder, and it doesn't have to be God holding that place. Regardless, I'm asking you in good faith. I'm always interested to see how people come to their sense of right and wrong, if they do have a sense of right and wrong.....Did someone seriously say that justice is a simple concept? Holy fuck. Some countries still have the death penalty. Killing isn't seen as objectively wrong by all humans. Certain types of killing are condoned by most countries (war, "collateral damage", etc.).The original commandment against killing was more about not killing someone from your tribe.Get in the Derrida thread.I'm talking about murder. I should have said murder. That would have made the exclusion of animals, and other living beings, self explanatory since you can't murder an animal, at least not by any legal code I'm aware of, which is probably worth thinking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amir Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 I do have my doubts whether we know right from wrong or whether there even is right and wrongTold you, man, nihilism... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magisme Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 I do have my doubts whether we know right from wrong or whether there even is right and wrongTold you, man, nihilism... Nah. You still have to make a couple jumps before you get to nihilism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovim Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) Did someone seriously say that justice is a simple concept? Holy fuck. That's a very Mag thing to do isn't it? taking a small part of what someone says without giving too much of a fuck about the context and doing this: I didn't mean justice as a whole, but the basic idea here is the difference between shitty and fair, right and wrong and what that should mean for all sides involved.You're very quick to mock. Very quick to mock. Quick To Mock should be your indian name. Edited February 3, 2015 by Rovim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) I'm not saying anything yet. I'm just asking you a question. Full disclosure, I do have my doubts whether we know right from wrong or whether there even is right and wrong - right and wrong proper and not pragmatics - without God or a substitute for God. In some ways, God is a placeholder, and it doesn't have to be God holding that place. Regardless, I'm asking you in good faith. I'm always interested to see how people come to their sense of right and wrong, if they do have a sense of right and wrong.God damnit, I hate doing this shit on a cell phone! But to address your point then no I don't think there is an absolute right or wrong because that would require us to invoke an ultimate authority by which right and wrong can be defined. That would leave no room for argument and no ambiguity which to me seems ludicrous. As for our innate sense of morality and right and wrong well there are many schools of thought on this that can relate back to basic evolutionary processes but most simply going back to the whole "do unto others" concept. In effect I don't go around kicking people in the bollocks cuz I don't want a kick in the bollocks. In terms of a more general approach it can be argued that altruism is an evolutionary mechanism to benefit the existence of our species in larger groups and it's easy to see why. Basically the every man for himself types would have tended to fair less successfully back in ancient tribal times where cooperation was more beneficial to survival. These people more inclined to altruistic tendencies were more likely to survive hence the propagation of the "morality" gene, for want of a better phrase, was favoured. Or some shit like that. Edited February 3, 2015 by Dazey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) Did someone seriously say that justice is a simple concept? Holy fuck. That's a very Mag thing to do isn't it? taking a small part of what someone says without giving too much of a fuck about the context and doing this: I didn't mean justice as a whole, but the basic idea here is the difference between shitty and fair, right and wrong and what that should mean for all sides involved.You're very quick to mock. Very quick to mock. Quick To Mock should be your indian name.Nah, his Indian name would be 'Bodyin' Hoes' Edited February 3, 2015 by Len B'stard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Drama Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 My Indian name is Lenny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 My Indian name is Lenny.Lun Lenny Na Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magisme Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Did someone seriously say that justice is a simple concept? Holy fuck. That's a very Mag thing to do isn't it? taking a small part of what someone says without giving too much of a fuck about the context and doing this: I didn't mean justice as a whole, but the basic idea here is the difference between shitty and fair, right and wrong and what that should mean for all sides involved.You're very quick to mock. Very quick to mock. Quick To Mock should be your indian name.Oh lord. ....I'll get at you in a bit, Dazey. Have to shower and go pretend to teach for a few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lithium Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 My Indian name is Lenny.But your given name is Cumface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 My Indian name is Lenny.But your given name is Cumface.Funny, thats the nickname of someone i know. It all started when we saw this local drug dealer, proper weedy looking guy and, look, I'm no oil painting myself so i should talk but this guy was ugly as fuck and my brother and his mate were there and one of em goes 'fuckin' hell, i wonder what his cumface is like!' and it just stuck as a nickname Len will join the Nation of Islam soon. Just, watch this space. Dies' in gonna hold my hand to the induction centre, we're gonna take a detour by the polling station so he can nip in and drop Ed Milliband a vote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magisme Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I'm not saying anything yet. I'm just asking you a question. Full disclosure, I do have my doubts whether we know right from wrong or whether there even is right and wrong - right and wrong proper and not pragmatics - without God or a substitute for God. In some ways, God is a placeholder, and it doesn't have to be God holding that place. Regardless, I'm asking you in good faith. I'm always interested to see how people come to their sense of right and wrong, if they do have a sense of right and wrong.God damnit, I hate doing this shit on a cell phone! But to address your point then no I don't think there is an absolute right or wrong because that would require us to invoke an ultimate authority by which right and wrong can be defined. That would leave no room for argument and no ambiguity which to me seems ludicrous.As for our innate sense of morality and right and wrong well there are many schools of thought on this that can relate back to basic evolutionary processes but most simply going back to the whole "do unto others" concept. In effect I don't go around kicking people in the bollocks cuz I don't want a kick in the bollocks. In terms of a more general approach it can be argued that altruism is an evolutionary mechanism to benefit the existence of our species in larger groups and it's easy to see why. Basically the every man for himself types would have tended to fair less successfully back in ancient tribal times where cooperation was more beneficial to survival. These people more inclined to altruistic tendencies were more likely to survive hence the propagation of the "morality" gene, for want of a better phrase, was favoured.Or some shit like that. Nice. So you're pretty clearheaded about this. There is no right and wrong strictly speaking, rather a code of conduct that helps us survive and avoid pain to which we've largely attached right and wrong, even though absolute right and wrong have nothing to do with them, which we admit. Good.Then, since philosophy is my thing, the task is twofold. Anywhere someone is decrying evil or bad or the inhumane or whatever, I insist that they do so either through God, which makes their claim absolute and indisputable but undoubtedly theological, or they do so through pragmatism, and I'll work to persuade their righteousness that it shouldn't be so righteous. And then, secondly, invention and imagination. It's not good enough, imo, to say, "Well, there's no god, so might as well forget about right and wrong." But it's also not good enough to accept that right and wrong are simply biologically determined survival strategies. So, in a Hegelian move (I'm referring to his dialectic but if you don't know about that it's fine), I want to incorporate the coming to consciousness of all the above and ask, What now? Knowing what we know. How to proceed with the good and justice and any other such concept? We've gathered nearly infinite information over the past century or so. It might be time to think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) Nice. So you're pretty clearheaded about this. There is no right and wrong strictly speaking, rather a code of conduct that helps us survive and avoid pain to which we've largely attached right and wrong, even though absolute right and wrong have nothing to do with them, which we admit. Good.That would be it in a proverbial nutshell. Exactly. I actually find the concept of right and wrong in the biblical sense to be a little unnerving. Like when people say that without God how would we know right from wrong. It's basically a stick and carrot hypothesis whereby people only do good things for fear or favour is it not? Like can you truly define yourself as good if you're only acting in the way to avoid a kicking or to seek a reward of some sort? That said I suppose you could argue that any deed that gives us satisfaction is inherently selfish irrespective of how it impacts or indeed benefits others. Edited February 3, 2015 by Dazey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magisme Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Like when people say that without God how would we know right from wrong. It's basically a stick and carrot hypothesis whereby people only do good things for fear or favour is it not? Like can you truly define yourself as good if you're only acting in the way to avoid a kicking or to seek a reward of some sort?Yeah, I've never understood that, although I've never been a believer. And I've never gotten much more than the tautological God is God answer when I've asked people about it. Would love if one of our believers would address this. I forget who said it, but it's like that whole there are no atheists in foxholes thing, to which the reply is that the foxholes seem to be the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Then, since philosophy is my thing, the task is twofold. Anywhere someone is decrying evil or bad or the inhumane or whatever, I insist that they do so either through God, which makes their claim absolute and indisputable but undoubtedly theological, or they do so through pragmatism, and I'll work to persuade their righteousness that it shouldn't be so righteous. And then, secondly, invention and imagination. It's not good enough, imo, to say, "Well, there's no god, so might as well forget about right and wrong." But it's also not good enough to accept that right and wrong are simply biologically determined survival strategies. So, in a Hegelian move (I'm referring to his dialectic but if you don't know about that it's fine), I want to incorporate the coming to consciousness of all the above and ask, What now? Knowing what we know. How to proceed with the good and justice and any other such concept? We've gathered nearly infinite information over the past century or so. It might be time to think.I can't give a decent answer to this on my phone. I'll try to have a crack at it when I get to my laptop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amir Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 It's not good enough, imo, to say, "Well, there's no god, so might as well forget about right and wrong." But it's also not good enough to accept that right and wrong are simply biologically determined survival strategies.Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) Like when people say that without God how would we know right from wrong. It's basically a stick and carrot hypothesis whereby people only do good things for fear or favour is it not? Like can you truly define yourself as good if you're only acting in the way to avoid a kicking or to seek a reward of some sort?Yeah, I've never understood that, although I've never been a believer. And I've never gotten much more than the tautological God is God answer when I've asked people about it. Would love if one of our believers would address this. I forget who said it, but it's like that whole there are no atheists in foxholes thing, to which the reply is that the foxholes seem to be the problem. On a slight tangent I just find the readiness to leap to a fantastical explanation a little odd when in most cases there are much simpler obvious solutions. Occam's Razor and all that? Also what's wrong with just admitting that there are a lot of things we simply don't know the answer to? Edited February 3, 2015 by Dazey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magisme Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 It's not good enough, imo, to say, "Well, there's no god, so might as well forget about right and wrong." But it's also not good enough to accept that right and wrong are simply biologically determined survival strategies.Why?Because I think things like the good and justice are valuable concepts, and just because we've mucked them up so far is no good reason to toss them out or helplessly throw our hands in the air.Like when people say that without God how would we know right from wrong. It's basically a stick and carrot hypothesis whereby people only do good things for fear or favour is it not? Like can you truly define yourself as good if you're only acting in the way to avoid a kicking or to seek a reward of some sort?Yeah, I've never understood that, although I've never been a believer. And I've never gotten much more than the tautological God is God answer when I've asked people about it. Would love if one of our believers would address this. I forget who said it, but it's like that whole there are no atheists in foxholes thing, to which the reply is that the foxholes seem to be the problem. On a slight tangent I just find the readiness to leap to a fantastical explanation a little odd when in most cases there are much simpler obvious solutions. Occam's Razor and all that? Also what's wrong with just admitting that there are a lot of things we simply don't know the answer to?Nothing wrong with it at all. I don't know is one of the most lovely and profound things a person can say imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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