Tour Lithographs and show specific artwork

[AussieHrvat]

I emailed the seller and asked if genuine, specifically that they were from the show on the night and got the same response

"The lithographs we have for sale are not reprints. The lithographs that are unnumbered were extras that were put aside and given to famous VIP's attending the show. These were extras from that show that were not given out. Exactly the same as the numbered ones just no number. They always make extras not for sale to public. Official merchandise. Good luck."

[mattathias]

2 hours ago, Esssssstranged said:

They're not fake. I think they're extras. I bought one, for curiosity sake, and it's one I owned that I bought in person, wanted to compare. They're spot on. The ink is spot on, the paper fibers are spot on. Faking these can be done, but why fake a GNR when you can fake a Sperry or Emek and take in serious $$$.

Faking these isn't as simple as a copy machine. These are printed old school printing press style...google lithography. They're printed with difffent screens of ink...you'd need the source art from the artist to get these right. I've worked in graphics, printing(screen, 4 color) for almost 20 years. They probably run an extra 50-100 prints bc it's cheaper to do that than set up with ink again and try to match the colors. Then they go through the stack and pull out ones with imperfections...and someone ends up with them, Mr. WarPig is that guy. We run extras all the time...if it's cool art you you think we trash it you're crazy...once got had 5,000 cover passes to a local bar. Saved me $5-8 a night. 

Has anyone seen any number A/P or artists proof? I've been really curious about that. That's generally how studios handle this stuff. E.g. they generate a few artists proofs to check that the printing process is sound before starting the numbered editions. Generally studios are very reluctant to sell the A/Ps

[liqddynamite]

Finally saw an actual pic of the Gorge on ebay.  Disappointing for me personally, I don't understand why there's so much black margin outside of the gold frame.  Plus the gold seems kind of matte, if it was gold foil like Metlife 1 has this would be a lot cooler imo.  

Also, has anyone figured out what the art reference is?

[The Holographic Universe]

7 minutes ago, liqddynamite said:

Finally saw an actual pic of the Gorge on ebay.  Disappointing for me personally, I don't understand why there's so much black margin outside of the gold frame.  Plus the gold seems kind of matte, if it was gold foil like Metlife 1 has this would be a lot cooler imo.  

Also, has anyone figured out what the art reference is?

I was underwhelmed by the litho, too. I thought the one on Instagram looked awesome, but yeh gold frame didn't look as cool as I expected.

[Gordon Comstock]

7 minutes ago, liqddynamite said:

Finally saw an actual pic of the Gorge on ebay.  Disappointing for me personally, I don't understand why there's so much black margin outside of the gold frame.  Plus the gold seems kind of matte, if it was gold foil like Metlife 1 has this would be a lot cooler imo.  

Also, has anyone figured out what the art reference is?

 

I think it looks really good, I like the black around the edge instead of white like most others. I know I'm late now but here's one of the ones I got:

(I don't have any for sale, before anyone asks)

[Dacatzass]

2 hours ago, Esssssstranged said:

They're not fake. I think they're extras. I bought one, for curiosity sake, and it's one I owned that I bought in person, wanted to compare. They're spot on. The ink is spot on, the paper fibers are spot on. Faking these can be done, but why fake a GNR when you can fake a Sperry or Emek and take in serious $$$.

Faking these isn't as simple as a copy machine. These are printed old school printing press style...google lithography. They're printed with difffent screens of ink...you'd need the source art from the artist to get these right. I've worked in graphics, printing(screen, 4 color) for almost 20 years. They probably run an extra 50-100 prints bc it's cheaper to do that than set up with ink again and try to match the colors. Then they go through the stack and pull out ones with imperfections...and someone ends up with them, Mr. WarPig is that guy. We run extras all the time...if it's cool art you you think we trash it you're crazy...once got had 5,000 cover passes to a local bar. Saved me $5-8 a night. 

I do know how these are made (I have a friend who owns a graphic shop who mostly does silkscreens. My sister has worked in his shop for over a decade) and I still maintain what warpig was doing is shady as f.... Why fake these instead of a Sperry or Emek? Why do counterfeiters mostly counterfeit $20 bills instead of larger notes like $50's or $100's? Because $50's and $100's attract more attention when you  try to pass them; but a $20 bill? A $20 bill I is used in everyday transactions and doesn't draw as much scrutiny. Nobody bats an eye. Same goes here... counterfeiting a Sperry would draw too much attention and scrutiny, but these GNR prints are hot right now and the technology exists in any good quality print shop to make as many copies as you can by procuring an original at the show.

i doubt his explanation for a couple of reasons:

1. We know these are not all made at the same print shop. He has sold Hatch prints as well as prints from different artists in different geographic locations. Some of the European prints are metric, some variants like different sizes, and some of the Asian prints are reportedly of poorer quality paper and print wise. New Orleans was glow in the dark, but the Singapore print wasn't (even though it was supposed to be). That means he doesn't have access to the prints at the original print level because they have been using different shops to make these. And no... I haven't seen warpig selling a glow in the dark New Orleans, but I could be wrong... that would add an extra process with special phosphorescent ink, but he could still do it.

2. Which means he would have to be getting these at the show level. This would fit his explanation that these are extras made for special VIP's that would be attending the show. But how many VIP's would they expect at any given show? And if you did have VIP's attending, you would want to make the lithographs more special as opposed to less special by leaving them unnumbered. Artists and Printers always run off extra copies, but the Artists (who would get a set number of extras) would denote these with an AP for "Artist Print" and start a newer smaller numbering sequence. Printers would denote them as "Test Prints"... the first prints in a batch and denote them similarly. Either action would make them more special (and thus worthy to hand out to VIP's)... not less special. This makes his explanation suspect to me. More likely the band would offer the lowest numbered lithographs to any VIP's in attendance. There has been some speculation about this in this very thread. What is the lowest numbered lithograph you have seen offered on eBay?

3. The most telling (and damning) thing for me goes back to how we know they have had different print shops producing these things... some prints sold at the show are hand numbered in their entirety... ex: 1/500. Other prints offered at the shows are numbered in first digit only, with the print size number added during the printing process to make it easier for the poor guy hand numbering all the prints. He would only has to write the "1", and not the "/500". Yet some of these prints warpig offers that have the printed portion of the number (like NJ) has it conspicuously absent. That definitively means that the print he is offering Is definitely not the same print that was produced when the original lithos were made... They were produced by a different printer on a different press at a different time.

What do I think about the whole thing?I think warpig might actually own a print shop somewhere or have access to printing equipment/good paper stock. He obtains an original at the show or off of eBay and then produces good enough quality copies to Offer for sale. He obscures the original numbers on the originals when he makes his copies because that would be a sure tell. Easy enough to believe a story that they are special VIP prints instead of hard evidence that he is doing something underhanded.

I also he focuses mainly on the US prints because it is easier to source imperial sized paper locally for his print shop or equipment as opposed to the metric sized paper that was used overseas. That would probably be much harder to obtain domestically (although I think I have seen him selling some Asian and European prints as well). If you bought one of his prints, and you are happy with the final product, then that is ok with me.

Can I prove any of the above? No I can't, nor do I really care to. I would just personally steer clear of any of his auctions, but that is just me.

 

[amaninjapan]

2 hours ago, uzi your illusion said:

 I haven't personally bought one from this guy but I'm of this thinking as well.

 if this guy really wanted to pull a scam why wouldn't he of numbered the lithos himself? There's enough pictures online of the ink color and type set used at each venue to where you could have replicated it.

Also, why wouldn't he make prints of the more high-dollar lithos from Asia and Europe? He has claimed from the beginning he has a hook up in North America and has stayed true to that. 

He also has a New Orleans for sale that's glow in the dark which I imagine would be tough to pull off. 

I would only buy one from this guy if I was desperate for one that I couldn't find anywhere else. But if you're not hung up about having something officially sold at the show, then this is a good way to build up your collection on the cheap.

Again my only real apprehension to what this guy is doing is that I'm worried now that the print he's  selling will get numbered by somebody else and reposted. That and he's flooded the market a bit bringing down value for the time being.

I wonder if it would be worth having an archive here of each litho and what numbers all members have. Obviously not super conclusive but it might be helpful down the line.

 

I keep running the situation through my mind and it just feels so sketchy. I tried to look at answers for both sides of the equation and these are my skeptical responses:

Why wouldn't he number the lithos himself?
a) Maybe he doesn't have a legit litho laying around so he doesn't have the ability to copy the handwriting and correct pen type? We know some are done in pencil, pen and paint marker.
b) Maybe by not putting numbers on it, he's leaving himself some wiggle room when it comes to trying to pass off fakes? By selling them without numbers one could argue that there's no way he was trying to pass them off as 'real' because 'everybody knows real ones all have numbers'

Why not make prints of the more expensive lithos?
a) Maybe he doesn't have access to scans of them?

He has claimed he has a hook up in North America but now he's selling Australian lithos too.

As for having a New Orleans - It always reminds me of a line from the first or second season of The X-Files - "A lie is most convincingly hidden between two truths." What better way to pass off fakes than to mix them in with the occasional legit litho? Why worry about maybe selling a real litho for below-value if you're making pure profit selling a hundred fakes?

I think he's really exploiting a niche market here. If he priced them at like $20 then everyone would know they're fake and maybe he wouldn't sell as many. But make them $75 or $100, then you rake in both people who don't realize they're fake PLUS people who are willing to buy a fake because they would rather spend $75 on a fake than $250 or $300 on an authentic one.

Even if we were to give this guy the benefit of the doubt (and I'm firmly in the 'don't reward this guy for his behavior' camp) - he would STILL be flooding the marketplace with items that aren't legitimate, authentic sold-at-the-concert lithos. Which if it wasn't bad enough by itself, it would - like you said - give OTHER people the opportunity to buy them, write their own numbers on them and then flood the market with even WORSE fakes. It's a lose-lose-lose situation for all involved.

Your idea about having some sort of litho number archive is good but honestly I think it'd be hard to implement. There's no way that the small group of people here collecting lithos would have a significant percentage of the lithos so we'd be archiving only a small handful of them anyway. Plus there's nothing preventing people from lying unless we expect people to take photos and then it's just a whole lot of effort for not a lot in return. For example, there's like what maybe 10 people here with a Cincinnati? Even if we believed everyone when they provided their litho number, there's still a couple of hundred out there unaccounted for

[Dacatzass]

4 minutes ago, amaninjapan said:

I keep running the situation through my mind and it just feels so sketchy. I tried to look at answers for both sides of the equation and these are my skeptical responses:

Why wouldn't he number the lithos himself?
a) Maybe he doesn't have a legit litho laying around so he doesn't have the ability to copy the handwriting and correct pen type? We know some are done in pencil, pen and paint marker.
b) Maybe by not putting numbers on it, he's leaving himself some wiggle room when it comes to trying to pass off fakes? By selling them without numbers one could argue that there's no way he was trying to pass them off as 'real' because 'everybody knows real ones all have numbers'

Why not make prints of the more expensive lithos?
a) Maybe he doesn't have access to scans of them?

He has claimed he has a hook up in North America but now he's selling Australian lithos too.

As for having a New Orleans - It always reminds me of a line from the first or second season of The X-Files - "A lie is most convincingly hidden between two truths." What better way to pass off fakes than to mix them in with the occasional legit litho? Why worry about maybe selling a real litho for below-value if you're making pure profit selling a hundred fakes?

I think he's really exploiting a niche market here. If he priced them at like $20 then everyone would know they're fake and maybe he wouldn't sell as many. But make them $75 or $100, then you rake in both people who don't realize they're fake PLUS people who are willing to buy a fake because they would rather spend $75 on a fake than $250 or $300 on an authentic one.

Even if we were to give this guy the benefit of the doubt (and I'm firmly in the 'don't reward this guy for his behavior' camp) - he would STILL be flooding the marketplace with items that aren't legitimate, authentic sold-at-the-concert lithos. Which if it wasn't bad enough by itself, it would - like you said - give OTHER people the opportunity to buy them, write their own numbers on them and then flood the market with even WORSE fakes. It's a lose-lose-lose situation for all involved.

Your idea about having some sort of litho number archive is good but honestly I think it'd be hard to implement. There's no way that the small group of people here collecting lithos would have a significant percentage of the lithos so we'd be archiving only a small handful of them anyway. Plus there's nothing preventing people from lying unless we expect people to take photos and then it's just a whole lot of effort for not a lot in return. For example, there's like what maybe 10 people here with a Cincinnati? Even if we believed everyone when they provided their litho number, there's still a couple of hundred out there unaccounted for

I like how you think amaninjapan... Too often people are willing to believe a story without looking at the whole picture or looking at all the clues.

As I said, the most damning piece of evidence that he is selling fakes is the absence of the numbers added during the print process from the original printer (for those print shops that went that route).

Remember that some people were worried that their "eBay bought litho" was fake because the number was printed and not hand-written? There is no way some of his lithos were produced at the same time as the originals. His story completely falls apart right there.

[amaninjapan]

7 minutes ago, Dacatzass said:

2. Which means he would have to be getting these at the show level. This would fit his explanation that these are extras made for special VIP's that would be attending the show. But how many VIP's would they expect at any given show? And if you did have VIP's attending, you would want to make the lithographs more special as opposed to less special by leaving them unnumbered. Artists and Printers always run off extra copies, but the Artists (who would get a set number of extras) would denote these with an AP for "Artist Print" and start a newer smaller numbering sequence. Printers would denote them as "Test Prints"... the first prints in a batch and denote them similarly. Either action would make them more special (and thus worthy to hand out to VIP's)... not less special. This makes his explanation suspect to me. More likely the band would offer the lowest numbered lithographs to any VIP's in attendance. There has been some speculation about this in this very thread. What is the lowest numbered lithograph you have seen offered on eBay?

 

The reason I don't believe this "VIP print" stuff is this - we have pretty much confirmed that the band takes about 20 or 30 lithos off the top of the stack for every show. The band members distribute these as they wish. We've had several sources confirm this - from stagehands to merch store staff to even the band themselves. Remember when we all realized nobody had EVER seen a litho numbered below 30? And then the ONE AND ONLY time we see a litho numbered below 30, it was when Duff autographed one and sold it on Facebook to pay for some friend's medical bills (Someone from Nightrain bought it and posted a picture and it was #14). So we know the band takes their allotment of lithos and we KNOW their own personal staff is numbered. Why on earth would we believe there's some magical stash of lithos elsewhere for VIPs that is mysteriously not numbered?

[IncitingChaos]

26 minutes ago, Gordon Comstock said:

 

I think it looks really good, I like the black around the edge instead of white like most others. I know I'm late now but here's one of the ones I got:

(I don't have any for sale, before anyone asks)

Wow! The black looks amazing. Will be great in a good frame 

[amaninjapan]

1 minute ago, Dacatzass said:

I like how you think amaninjapan... Too often people are willing to believe a story without looking at the whole picture or looking at all the clues.

As I said, the most damning piece of evidence that he is selling fakes is the absence of the numbers added during the print process from the original printer (for those print shops that went that route).

Remember that some people were worried that their "eBay bought litho" was fake because the number was printed and not hand-written? There is no way some of his lithos were produced at the same time as the originals. His story completely falls apart right there.

You know what, you're absolutely right - He has sold an Atlanta litho and that off the top of my head is one of the few that had the numbers printed on and not handwritten. His did not have any numbers printed on. So surely nobody can be expected to believe that it's not a reprint.

[amaninjapan]

30 minutes ago, Gordon Comstock said:

 

I think it looks really good, I like the black around the edge instead of white like most others. I know I'm late now but here's one of the ones I got:

(I don't have any for sale, before anyone asks)

I keep going back and forth on this.

I loved it.
Then I disliked it because I thought the gold frame was a bit much.
Then I liked it again because there was hope that the frame was gold foil metallic.
Then I disliked it again because I saw it wasn't gold foil metallic.
Then I liked it again because it all the gold gave me a a bit of a Gustav Klimt feel to it
Then I disliked it again because of the HUGE black frame around the gold frame. I mean sure it's nice to have a non-white-border litho from time to time but that's just too big!
Then I liked it again because it still looks quite beautiful.
Then I disliked it again because it looks a little too cartoony.
Then the colors are nice... then I feel like it's a cheap copout because the art really only covers like, 25% of the paper... I'm really all over the place with it.

It's definitely more good than bad but could've been executed better.

[Gordon Comstock]

3 minutes ago, amaninjapan said:

I keep going back and forth on this.

I loved it.
Then I disliked it because I thought the gold frame was a bit much.
Then I liked it again because there was hope that the frame was gold foil metallic.
Then I disliked it again because I saw it wasn't gold foil metallic.
Then I liked it again because it all the gold gave me a a bit of a Gustav Klimt feel to it
Then I disliked it again because of the HUGE black frame around the gold frame. I mean sure it's nice to have a non-white-border litho from time to time but that's just too big!
Then I liked it again because it still looks quite beautiful.
Then I disliked it again because it looks a little too cartoony.
Then the colors are nice... then I feel like it's a cheap copout because the art really only covers like, 25% of the paper... I'm really all over the place with it.

It's definitely more good than bad but could've been executed better.

 

I get that. I like the border(s) around the art though, it looks quite neat in contrast to my Vancouver or Vegas lithos for example.

[amaninjapan]

5 minutes ago, Gordon Comstock said:

 

I get that. I like the border(s) around the art though, it looks quite neat in contrast to my Vancouver or Vegas lithos for example.

The borders are great - it's just too much.

[TigerBubba]

Warpig, hate he's flooding the market, but if he has a Cincinnati for a low price, I'd buy!

[amaninjapan]

11 minutes ago, TigerBubba said:

Warpig, hate he's flooding the market, but if he has a Cincinnati for a low price, I'd buy!

You can't hate he's flooding the market and yet at the same time be willing to give him money for a cheap fake. Can't have it both ways, man.

[Gordon Comstock]

24 minutes ago, amaninjapan said:

The borders are great - it's just too much.

 

To be fair my second favourite litho is probably Seattle 2016, which also has a border around it and is "simpler" than most, so take that for what it's worth

I like the Gorge one because it's different, not only is it a unique venue but it's unique in that it's included in a stadium tour. So a unique design makes sense. I also like the 'NITL' in small print at the top of the border.

[Gordon Comstock]

31 minutes ago, TigerBubba said:

Warpig, hate he's flooding the market, but if he has a Cincinnati for a low price, I'd buy!

 

What is a "low price" for one of this guys lithos? After shipping and all would it be cheaper to just get one printed yourself, especially knowing that guy is selling copies anyway?

[amaninjapan]

5 minutes ago, Gordon Comstock said:

 

To be fair my second favourite litho is probably Seattle 2016, which also has a border around it and is "simpler" than most, so take that for what it's worth

I like the Gorge one because it's different, not only is it a unique venue but it's unique in that it's included in a stadium tour. So a unique design makes sense. I also like the 'NITL' in small print at the top of the border.

Nah that one was cool too. Seattle 2016 was definitely unique!

[Gordon Comstock]

1 hour ago, IncitingChaos said:

Wow! The black looks amazing. Will be great in a good frame 

 

I just put mine in a frame, it looks pretty awesome

 

6 minutes ago, amaninjapan said:

Nah that one was cool too. Seattle 2016 was definitely unique!

 

Agreed!

[estrangedtwat]

I'd buy a reasonably priced (cheap) repro if it's labeled as such. 

Reasonable my mind is at or lower than the original item retailed for.

Warpig is a scam artist.  Period.  If his shit was real, he wouldn't sell them all at the same set price.

 

Also, this guy who comes leaping to his defense with only 3 posts?  Hi Warpig.  You're still a scam artist.  I'm gonna report all your fake shit from now on cause I'm sick of people getting ripped off.

[xBrownstonex]

Warpig is a piece of shit and karma will fuck him up someday. I am sure.

[estrangedtwat]

Eh.  I don't believe in karma.  But I agree he's a piece of shit.

[Esssssstranged]

4 hours ago, estrangedtwat said:

I'd buy a reasonably priced (cheap) repro if it's labeled as such. 

Reasonable my mind is at or lower than the original item retailed for.

Warpig is a scam artist.  Period.  If his shit was real, he wouldn't sell them all at the same set price.

 

Also, this guy who comes leaping to his defense with only 3 posts?  Hi Warpig.  You're still a scam artist.  I'm gonna report all your fake shit from now on cause I'm sick of people getting ripped off.

Now I'm warpig? Lmao ok...

Edited September 6, 2017 by Esssssstranged

[AussieHrvat]

He sells Perth T shirts?? ha, I've got a new Large one with the spider if someone wants a genuine, ill swap it for a non fake litho of any sort!