GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

20 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I know nothing about Testament but I do know this is happening:

 

omg.  I  mean, I feel proud FOR him.  Where's a crying emoji when you need one?  Honestly.  So chuffed.  I'm a casual Metallica fan, was really into them (my Dad and I bonded over And Justice For All) around the time I discovered GNR and well, guess who took over my life?  

I would think that Slash would be supportive of his son whatever he wanted to do.  

Clearly, his son wants to be in a band and create music. Checking out their website, the lads already have a ton of gear (now that's a far cry from how his dad started off! ha!) and they're going about things the right way: you got two pals who are already on the same page (like Izzy and Axl except in this case it's 'Slash and Steven' ^^) and now they're advertising for the rest of the band. 

In years to come, IF GNR are in need of a drummer and IF London is a good fit for GNR and gels with the rest of the band then I see no reason why he shouldn't be allowed to be a GNR drummer.  If he's the best person for the job, then he should get it.  Obviously, this isn't a serious discussion, but it's fun to imagine the scenario anyway.

I'm sure Slash and Perla would help guide London through the social media pitfalls, the criticism, the trolls and fame and what not.  Look, this generation of kids coming up?  They are waaaay more savvy when it comes to social media, publicity etc...then my generation ever were, that's for sure.  London is probably telling his parents how to handle insta/twitter trolls etc...

 

[SerenityScorp]

On 8/12/2017 at 2:14 AM, Archtop said:

So what would the GnR counters be?

Top hat

Padlock

Skull

Rose

Gun

Cant think of anything else. 

 

Avocado 

On 8/13/2017 at 6:25 AM, Andy14 said:

Aaaaaaand speaking of Axl again...

Does this count as Slaxl? 

 

On 8/13/2017 at 7:45 AM, Georgina Arriaga said:

A little bit of Slaxl

 

I'm sure tht was on purpose 

[Fang]

The Classlessact stuff posted actually does sound a lil oldschool. Too bad he doesn't have other members yet. It'll kick ass when he does. 

[Blackstar]

On 8/14/2017 at 5:22 PM, killuridols said:

I don't know what you don't agree with because Axl said in 2001 that he was trying not to sound like the ACDC/Aerosmith vibe AFD had and that's exactly what the other guys were writing at the time they were still together.

He said that it didn't mean he wanted to go full industrial but he didn't want to be stuck in this sound either. He wanted to evolve it.

This jam thing sounds pretty much like old school rock, so I don't know anymore. I'm lost.

He said something different in 1999, 2002 and 2008 (and later) in regards to AFD and what he intended to do - and there is consistency in all those interviews. I think he said these things in 2001 (the year of his comeback) in an attempt to justify/legitimize the new band and the new sound as a vision he had for a long time. But even in that interview he didn't call AFD itself "dated"; he was talking mostly about his intentions in the period after the break-up; and I think that, combining it with he said in 1999, the part about the material the "old band" was trying to write being "dated" was in reference to Slash's Snakepit songs as they were.

I'll try to give a short version of the post I'd started writing:

My conclusion from all the stuff I've read is that those 2001 interviews, along with the way Axl introduced Tobias in RIR and some things Slash said around that time, helped in creating a myth, which in turn led to a revisionist narrative about the 1993-1996 period originating mostly from a portion of NuGnR fans who adopted it despite of what Axl said in all the above mentioned interviews - and many anti-NuGnR fans have believed it too from their own perspective. According to this myth, Axl had a grand artistic vision about the direction of GnR in the 90s (which eventually materialized with CD), but the "old band" was an obstacle; so he took control of the band in order to be able to fulfill his vision and, since the other members were unwilling/unable to follow it, they left; in other words, he sacrificed the "old band" for his vision. But in reality, although undoubtedly Axl did things that led to the break-up, he didn't "single-handedly" break the band. And, most importantly, he didn't want the band to break up and didn't try to make CD while Slash was still in the band; it (and NuGnR) was a choice he made after the break-up.

It seems that in 1994 (which was the crucial year) Axl, being a psychological mess with the lawsuits and all the other shit, didn't have a clear mind about what exactly wanted to do musically and how to do it. He didn't like Slash's songs as they were apart from 3-4 and wanted to use some of the ideas to "develop" them (and Duff agreed with him). To what? AFD 2 couldn't be an option without Izzy (and at that point they were at odds with him - also Slash said in an early 94 interview that he didn't want to return to that era). I think he was trying to fill Izzy's gap with a new strong element, looking for a guitarist that could "challenge" Slash (but Slash didn't want that) and leaning towards incorporating 90s grungy elements (maybe something a bit like... Velvet Revolver) plus his ballads; so he did want to evolve but not change the direction in a radical/CD-ish kind of way. But he wasn't in position to provide a clear input, then he brought in Tobias (who was "Axl's guy" but definitely not a guy to radically change the direction)... And Slash wasn't willing to go through another UYI process (or worse, as it seemed to be) -neither in terms of the time it had taken to be finished nor of Axl's "messing up" with the songs and the production etc; he wanted to put out an album and go back on the road - and moreover he hated Tobias. So he took his songs and made his Snakepit album (the timeline is not clear on whether Slash recorded Snakepit before the Sympathy For The Devil incident or after). *

Axl was shaken up by that and brought Zakk Wylde in early 1995 (imo in an attempt to appease Slash), who also wasn't a guy to change the direction and not a type that would be a "yes man" either - he was a blues/hard rock guitarist. It didn't work out, Slash suggested to bring back Gilby, Axl refused... Then Slash went on his solo tour (during which he gave many interviews -some of them really pissed off- talking about Axl, Tobias etc); in the meantime Izzy returned briefly and left; and when Slash returned, Axl made the legal manoeuvre with the name - which, regardless of what his reasons were (probably he saw a conspiracy behind what Slash did) - was a fatal move. After that, there were the last ill-fated sessions (with Axl playing rhythm, Tobias being "around" and the position of the second guitarist still open), which, according to a Duff interview a bit before Slash left, would lead to an "AFD oriented" album of "12 straight rockers - no ballads". Slash said he was a psychological wreck and couldn't function in the band anymore...

In my opinion there is no evidence that Axl tried to change the direction drastically- Pro-Tools alone couldn't do that. It's no secret that he had a thing with industrial and liked this music since it was still an underground thing and before it became a trend, but it wasn't something he tried to force on the band. Even if he had wanted to, his mental condition wouldn't have allowed him to - from what people who were around have said (and even himself has alluded to it), he didn't write or sing anything.

* UPDATE: There's evidence that Snakepit was recorded before the Sympathy for the Devil recording.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Blackstar

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

Wow, great research @Blackstar.  That was a really enlightening read and it all made sense to me.  Whenever you get a chance, it would be great if you would post the original (I'm guessing longer, more in-depth version) that you were in the process of typing up.  

[Padme]

42 minutes ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

Wow, great research @Blackstar.  That was a really enlightening read and it all made sense to me.  Whenever you get a chance, it would be great if you would post the original (I'm guessing longer, more in-depth version) that you were in the process of typing up.  

Yes Axl had psychological issues. He said that in an interview a few years ago that he had a writers block. And he couldn't write for many years. He blame Slash, Duff and Stephanie

Edited August 14, 2017 by Padme

[Blackstar]

53 minutes ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

Wow, great research @Blackstar.  That was a really enlightening read and it all made sense to me.  Whenever you get a chance, it would be great if you would post the original (I'm guessing longer, more in-depth version) that you were in the process of typing up.  

Thank you... I'll try to finish the original - it's already 2 pages long, lol.

[killuridols]

2 hours ago, Blackstar said:

He said something different in 1999, 2002 and 2008 (and later) in regards to AFD and what he intended to do - and there is consistency in all those interviews. I think he said these things in 2001 (the year of his comeback) in an attempt to justify/legitimize the new band and the new sound as a vision he had for a long time. But even in that interview he didn't call AFD itself "dated"; he was talking mostly about his intentions in the period after the break-up; and I think that, combining it with he said in 1999, the part about the material the "old band" was trying to write being "dated" was in reference to Slash's Snakepit songs as they were.

It would be better if you could provide the quotes and sources of the things he said in 1999, 2002 and 2008 because honestly, I don't remember exactly what he said.

The bolded part it is not very clear to me what you're trying to say...... Why would he want to justify/legitimize the new sound of the new band if at the same time he didn't think the sound of AFD was dated?
In that interview from 2001 he says that the only industrial song he had written so far was OH MY GOD and that's the reason why people were thinking he wanted to go industrial, but that the sound of CD did have some bluesy things, only that not so much influenced by AC/DC and Aerosmith as before.

2 hours ago, Blackstar said:

My conclusion from all the stuff I've read is that those 2001 interviews, along with the way Axl introduced Tobias in RIR and some things Slash said around that time, helped in creating a myth, which in turn led to a revisionist narrative about the 1993-1996 period originating mostly from a portion of NuGnR fans who adopted it despite of what Axl said in all the above mentioned interviews - and many anti-NuGnR fans have believed it too from their own perspective. According to this myth, Axl had a grand artistic vision about the direction of GnR in the 90s (which eventually materialized with CD), but the "old band" was an obstacle; so he took control of the band in order to be able to fulfill his vision and, since the other members were unwilling/unable to follow it, they left; in other words, he sacrificed the "old band" for his vision. But in reality, although undoubtedly Axl did things that led to the break-up, he didn't "single-handedly" break the band. And, most importantly, he didn't want the band to break up and didn't try to make CD while Slash was still in the band; it (and NuGnR) was a choice he made after the break-up.

I'm not sure what you describe is a myth that fans believe.

There are many things there that are true or at least, facts demostrate they did happen, we just dont know the reasons behind..... Like saying "the old band was obstacle" for Axl's vision. I've not heard of fans believing this. That sounds more like something Slash mentioned when he said Axl thought of GN'R as his solo band.

Neither you or me are in position of saying which were Axl intentions..... of course, we can assume he didnt want to break up the band, but if you have the other five or four guys saying they couldn't stand this guy anymore, that it was a dictatorship, that they were tired of his bullshit, not going to rehearsal and not liking the music they were writing, then why should we believe only Axl and not the rest?

Many CD songs were written in the mid-to-late 90's..... and there are tons, apparently, that he didn't release yet but those probably come from that time too.

2 hours ago, Blackstar said:

It's no secret that he had a thing with industrial and liked this music since it was still an underground thing and before it became a trend, but it wasn't something he tried to force on the band.

But he slipped "My World", which is some sort of industrial shit, into UYI 2 without the rest of the band knowing about it..... how is that not forcing something?

It looks to me that back then he had been doing too many things of that type that alienated his band members: My World, Look At Your Game Girl, Sympathy for the Devil, bringing in Paul Tobias, Zakk Wylde, the maneuver with the name thing..... in a nutshell, he did everything possible to mess up with the other guys.... if it was his intention or not, I dont know, we will never know, but he did do all those things and it is undeniable.

 

Edited August 14, 2017 by killuridols

[Blackstar]

@killuridols, here are the quotes you asked (I left out the Slash conspiracy-"it's all his fault" stuff -when possible, lol- because what matters in this discussion is what he says about AFD and his intentions about the direction):

1999:

Rose: I originally wanted to make a traditional record or try to get back to an "Appetite [For Destruction]" thing or something, because that would have been a lot easier for me to do. I was involved in a lot of lawsuits for Guns N' Roses and in my own personal life, so I didn't have a lot of time to try and develop a new style or re-invent myself, so I was hoping to write a traditional thing, but I was not really allowed to do that.

Loder: What prevented you from doing, like, a traditional rock record?

Rose: Slash.

Loder: [Laughs] But you could have found another guitar player or something, right?

Rose: Well, not really.... Not to make a true Guns record. It's kind of like, I don't know, if you know somebody has a relationship, and there's difficulties in that, and Mr. or Mrs. Right doesn't kind of just stumble into their path, or they don't stumble across that person, they can't really get on with things. Somebody didn't come into my radar that would have really replaced Slash in a proper way.

Loder: Yeah.

Rose: And it really wasn't something we were trying to do. We were trying to make things work with Slash for a very, very long time... about three and a half years.
....

Rose: For me, when I hear certain things on the "Use Your Illusion" tour, I... on that record, it's... since I'm in it, I can hear a band dying. I can hear when Izzy was unconsciously over it. I can hear where the band was leaning away from what Guns N' Roses [had] originally been about.

People may have their favorite songs, and it may be on "Use Your Illusion," but most people do tend to lean towards "Appetite" as being the defining Guns N' Roses record, and I can hear how, in the sound, it [UYI] was moving away from that there. There's just so much I was able to do in keeping that aspect together.

...

[Talking about what he was trying to do post-Slash]:

So once it was really understood by me that I'm really not going to be able to make the right old-style Guns N' Roses record, and if I try to take into consideration what Guns did on "Appetite," which was to kind of be a melting pot of a lot things that were going on, plus use past influences, I could make the right record if I used my influences from what I've been listening to that everybody else is listening to out there. So in that sense, I think it is like old Guns N' Roses as far as, like, the spirit and the attempt to throw all kinds of different styles together.

2002:

“Originally I intended to do more of an Appetite style recording but with the changes in the band's dynamics and the band's musical influences at the time it didn't appear realistic. So, I opted for what I thought would or should've made the band and especially Slash very happy. Basically I was interested in making a Slash record with some contributions from everybody else. There’d still be some chemistry and some synergy happening and whatever dynamics anyone else could bring in to the project. ... I think that some of the riffs that were coming out of him were the meanest, most contemporary, bluesiest, rocking thing since Aerosmith’s Rocks. The 2000 version of Aerosmith Rocks or the 1996 Aerosmith Rocks by the time we would have put it out. I don’t know if I would have wanted to even do a world tour at the time but I wanted to put that record together and could we have done it? Yes. It’s not something I would want to approach (without Slash) because at the time there was only one person that I knew who could do certain riffs that way. We still needed the collaboration of the band as a whole to write the best songs. Since none of that happened, that’s the reason why that material got scrapped.

...

2008:

And I’m not talking change of styles or sounds etc. A lot of people bought that crap and me having gone in other directions seems to many to have verified that. ... but I have the rehearsal tapes. There’s nothing but Slash based blues rock...

2009:

All this time, most thought I changed the direction with 'Illusions.' A lot of nonsense theories, speculation and complete nonrealities put together by others, based on [...] [and] one interview taken out of context I did with Kurt Loder where I said I hated 'Appetite.' That sentence has been used and twisted in every conceivable way since to vilify me and purports to prove my guilt and responsibility, when I wasn't speaking to the music itself but the overwhelming and at that time seemingly drowning success of our record.

My statement was in specific response to the feelings I had listening to DJs at the L.A. hard rock station KNAC at the time complaining about having to play the entire record for the umpteenth time for fans. I simply wanted to make another record and have it be as good or better. If you don't think I would've liked to have five 'Appetites' and been living like the Stones at the time, you're high. With that, any other avenue I hoped to pursue musically would more than likely been available as well. [...]

Why didn't you write 'Appetite'-style songs yourself then?
Part of what destroyed Guns was the battle between those guitars that works so well for 'Appetite.' I have no concept how to duplicate that with either the old guys or anyone else. [...]

--------

- What I wrote is not made up by me - and I didn't say that it's possible to know what happened exactly. I wrote this when I started writing the long post which I've left in the middle:

On 31/7/2017 at 11:36 PM, Blackstar said:

We don't know everything about what happened during all that period (1993-96); there are blanks and contradictory claims (sometimes even by the same person in different time frames). What we have is a) interviews/quotes from that period (which are the most reliable sources), b) later accounts of the people involved (interviews, autobiographies, Axl's chats etc), c) accounts of other people close to the band (Marc Canter, Doug Goldstein etc), d) some legal documents that are accessible online. If one reads all these sources, combines them and filters them, leaving out longtime preconceived notions (or recent epiphanies) and biases about who was the villain of the soap opera, we can have a pretty clear frame of the series of events and of the causal links between them.

People often confuse events and different phases, because Axl's way of writing/talking is abstract and context lacking and Slash's book goes back and forth in the timeline.

There were two  phases: 1) 1993-94 (Gilby's firing, Tobias/Sympathy For The Devil, Snakepit songs), 2) 1995-96 (Zakk Wylde sessions, Slash's Snakepit tour, Izzy's brief return, Axl gets ownership of the name, sessions with Axl being the rhythm guitarist).

I'll write a lengthy post later about all this - probably there will be 5 more pages of replies until I post it

---------

- I don't understand what you don't understand in what I said about the 2001 interview

- RE: The old band as an obstacle. I've read it in this forum, in posts by disappointed NuGnR fans: (paraphrasing) "He broke up the band to do something new, but he released only one album... "

Edited August 14, 2017 by Blackstar

[Blackstar]

I forgot to address these:

6 hours ago, killuridols said:

Many CD songs were written in the mid-to-late 90's..... and there are tons, apparently, that he didn't release yet but those probably come from that time too.

 

Source about CD songs written when Slash was still in the band (apart from TIL)?

6 hours ago, killuridols said:

 

8 hours ago, Blackstar said:

It's no secret that he had a thing with industrial and liked this music since it was still an underground thing and before it became a trend, but it wasn't something he tried to force on the band.

But he slipped "My World", which is some sort of industrial shit, into UYI 2 without the rest of the band knowing about it..... how is that not forcing something?

It looks to me that back then he had been doing too many things of that type that alienated his band members: My World, Look At Your Game Girl, Sympathy for the Devil, bringing in Paul Tobias, Zakk Wylde, the maneuver with the name thing..... in a nutshell, he did everything possible to mess up with the other guys.... if it was his intention or not, I dont know, we will never know, but he did do all those things and it is undeniable.

- Not true about My World. To be accurate, it's true only for Izzy, who said he heard it after the albums were released (but there is a quote from him shortly before he left, where he said he wasn't interested in hearing the mixed stuff that was being sent to him). Slash and Duff knew about it - Duff even said (in 2005-6) that he liked it. They also knew about Look At Your Game Girl. They didn't want to play on it, but they knew it beforehand.

- Sympathy For The Devil: Yes, that was lame. Like I said in the other post, the timeline is not clear on whether it was before Slash recorded Snakepit or after, hence it's not clear which one was the action and which one the reaction (these two stories are interrelated). Regardless, it surely was a bad move.

- Tobias:

Axl claims that he brought him in just to "help" and he didn't try to force him as a member. He said it was all open; and this seems true, at least to some extent, from the series of events, because after the Sympathy story he brought another guitarist (Zakk Wylde). Duff in his second account of the Tobias story (in his book) partly corroborates Axl's claim. Axl also said that Slash didn't suggest another guitarist. Slash said he suggested to bring Gilby back and Axl didn't agree. He admits though in the book that the second guitar position was open and that later Axl expected his input on the guitarist, but he was in such a shitty mood that he didn't do anything.

Why Axl didn't want Gilby, why he wanted Tobias and what was his issue with the guitarists in general? We can only assume. This is my theory:

On 27/7/2017 at 6:36 PM, Blackstar said:

I have a theory on the reason (not the main one probably, but at least a partial one) why Axl wanted Paul Tobias in the band.

According to Axl (I'm paraphrasing), there was a rivalry between Izzy and Slash in the early days; he said they didn't like each other much. But that rivalry (Axl has called it a "war"), as reflected to the making of the songs and to their guitar interplay, was a basic ingredient of the band's sound and a big part of what made AFD a "perfect" (Axl's word) album.

I think Axl had been trying (in vain) to recreate that "ingredient" since Izzy's departure and throughout the NuGuns era untli the DJ Ashba period (when he obviously gave up). In general, he'd been trying to replicate the recipe of the AFD era. It didn't have to do with the musical direction, but with recreating the chemistry. This is why he was looking at lead guitarists to replace Izzy; he wanted someone to "challenge" Slash, not just complement him. And when Slash left, two guitarists weren't enough for what he was trying to do (he knew it would be impossible to find someone with Slash's talent and personality, and even if he didn't want to change the direction, he'd have to). I also think it wasn't coincidental that Axl's choice for Duff's replacement was a bassist with punk roots.

Where does Paul Tobias fit in this pattern? He had some things in common with Izzy, as far as Axl is concerned: He was, like Izzy, Axl's childhood friend/schoolmate from Indiana (all three of them were at the same school year) and someone who Axl had played and written (at least) a song with. Axl said in 1987 that he had seen Izzy's big potential all along (he said he'd been "pushing" him to write) and, when the original band got together (ie. Izzy and Slash), Izzy "brought it". So maybe Axl thought that history could be repeated with Tobias*. Of course, like I said, this was likely a partial reason, with the main being the power game and Axl wanting his own guy in the band.

 

* Additionally, maybe Axl really thought that Tobias had potential, because in 1988, in the joint MTV interview with Slash, he praised him as a good guitarist with Jimmy Page feel etc.

Slash though didn't want a "battle of guitars". Izzy was Izzy, but he didn't want a “guitar/songwriting rival” as his replacement; he just wanted a good rhythm guitarist he could click with and be complemented by (and to him, Gilby was good for that).

And he disliked Tobias both as a guitarist and as a person. We don’t know Tobias (as a person), as the guy has never spoken, but judging from that Duff didn’t like him either, and also that even Tommy Stinson said that he was arrogant, it seems that there was indeed a problem with his character. Marc Canter said that Slash thought Tobias wasn't cool and didn't have the right image for the band. I was under the impression that Tobias was among Axl's Indiana friends who had come to LA after GnR made it (so Slash and Duff knew him and disliked him beforehand), but according to Marc, Axl brought him from Indiana to come and help. And of course it's reasonable that Slash/Duff didn't like him even only for that - a "random" friend from Indiana to help? Also, given the situation between them already during the tour, they were negative towards anyone who was "Axl's guy". And apparently Tobias did everything to fulfill that role; Dizzy was Axl's guy too, but it seems that he knew to keep his mouth shut, while Tobias didn't.

Anyway, regardless of the reasons Axl wanted Tobias and Slash didn't like him, what matters is that, from Slash’s POV, Axl disrespected and insulted him by putting him to work with a guy he knew Slash didn’t like/appreciate. Like I said above, Axl brought another guy (Zakk) but...

-------

EDIT - About Axl's quotes above: He's been consistent and we can choose if we believe him or not. It's obvious from my first post that I don't believe him entirely about the musical direction - I believe him though in that he never "hated" Appetite.

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by Blackstar

[killuridols]

@Blackstar ok, thank you for taking the time and work!
Here's my take on all this....

---

1999 Quotes:

I have taken the time to read the whole thing again (I remember hearing part of this conversation on MTV, it was on the phone, right?.....). I can also see where you are drawing your conclusions from, the ones you posted in your previous comment, but now that I've read more than what you quoted here, I do not necessarily see it or understand it the same way you did.

1) "I originally wanted to make a traditional record or try to get back to an "Appetite [For Destruction]" thing or something, because that would have been a lot easier for me to do."

In that first statement, I feel there's already a bit of resistance with the AFD kind of album............... He says making a record similar to AFD would have been the easiest path for him, but he's not saying that it is something that he actually WANTED to do, something that he genuinely liked. It sounds like he wanted to do it, just so that he could get it out of the way... probably to comply with the record company demands or to fill space/time so that the band wouldn't disappear from the audience minds.

In that part, he also mentions that he didn't have the time to reinvent himself or develop a new style, so making an album similar to AFD would have been the path of least resistance, WHILE he was looking for something that he actually wanted to be proud of.

From my POV, he's not talking about AFD as something he REALLY wanted to go back to, but just as the only way he knew how to make a quick GN'R album, so that he could deliver it in a short span of time.

2) He is asked about the origin of 'Oh My God' and if he's been working with samples....
"No, not a lot, no. Basically, [I'm] listening to everything that's out there as far as music goes. That was a big difference between myself and Slash and Duff, is that I didn't hate everything new that came out. I really liked the Seattle movement. I like White Zombie. I like Nine Inch Nails, and I like hip-hop. I don't hate everything. I don't think everybody should be worshiping me 'cause I was around before them."

This one is pretty obvious to me. He's criticizing or implying that Slash and Duff were not so open to new sounds and new fads, while he was the one into the rare new things and willing to incorporate more modern sounds in a GN'R album.

3) "So once it was really understood by me that I'm really not going to be able to make the right old-style Guns N' Roses record, and if I try to take into consideration what Guns did on "Appetite," which was to kind of be a melting pot of a lot things that were going on, plus use past influences, I could make the right record if I used my influences from what I've been listening to that everybody else is listening to out there."

He's not REALLY saying that he was not allowed to make an album that sounded like AFD..... What he's saying is that when AFD was conceived, they did it by using the influences that everybody brought before they joined the band. He says "melting pot" of ideas and past influences. AFD was influenced by AC/DC, Aerosmith, a bit of Rolling Stones, etc. bands and artists that they ALL liked, more or less.

Then he adds "I could make the right record if I used my influences from what I've been listening to (...)" meaning that he was not allowed to use his CURRENT influences (90's) when they were trying to write that GN'R album that never saw the light.

Combined with what he said before, he was implying that Slash and Duff were not open to incorporate the sounds/styles/ideas that Axl was cooking in his mind from the things he had been listening to at the time (NIN, White Zombie, hip-hop, grunge), and for that reason he understood that he was not allowed to be creative the way he was when they wrote AFD. But nothing to do with the AFD sound. He was talking about the AFD writing process, the creative process behind.

4) "So we have material that we think is too advanced for old Guns fans to hear right now and they would completely hate, because we were exploring the use of computers [along with] everybody really playing their ass off and combining that, but trying to push the envelope a bit. It's like, 'Hmm, I have to push the envelope a little too far. We'll wait on that.' So we got a list of things."

"Material too advanced for old Guns fans to hear right now and they would completely hate".................. thank you, Axl
Not only he thought his former bandmates were Neanderthals regarding new music, but also the fans.....

5) "People may have their favorite songs, and it may be on "Use Your Illusion," but most people do tend to lean towards "Appetite" as being the defining Guns N' Roses record, and I can hear how, in the sound, it was moving away from that there. There's just so much I was able to do in keeping that aspect together."

I think here he's talking about how consistent and solid AFD is, versus the Illusions being a mess of different styles and songs that are not necessarily linked to each other. That album was planned for them to be able to release all of the old material they had been accumulating for years.

Axl is evidently proud of the way AFD was created, recorded, how it came out and how much weight it has in the overall scheme of things, but this doesn't mean he wanted to replicate the AFD sound in the following GN'R albums. It is clear to me that what he wanted was to extrapolate the structure of the album.

---

2002 Quote:

“Originally I intended to do more of an Appetite style recording but with the changes in the band's dynamics and the band's musical influences at the time it didn't appear realistic. So, I opted for what I thought would or should've made the band and especially Slash very happy. Basically I was interested in making a Slash record with some contributions from everybody else. There’d still be some chemistry and some synergy happening and whatever dynamics anyone else could bring in to the project. ... I think that some of the riffs that were coming out of him were the meanest, most contemporary, bluesiest, rocking thing since Aerosmith’s Rocks. The 2000 version of Aerosmith Rocks or the 1996 Aerosmith Rocks by the time we would have put it out. I don’t know if I would have wanted to even do a world tour at the time but I wanted to put that record together and could we have done it? Yes. It’s not something I would want to approach (without Slash) because at the time there was only one person that I knew who could do certain riffs that way. We still needed the collaboration of the band as a whole to write the best songs. Since none of that happened, that’s the reason why that material got scrapped.

This one looks like an upgraded version of what he said to Loder in 1999 by adding the info about "Slash based record". I don't know about this. Can't say if its true or not. It is really Axl's "new side" of the story by 2002.

What I do notice is that (after reading the whole press release) this time he sounds much more aggressive than before and like he's responding to the things that Slash had said to the press around the same time. The inconsistency that I find here is that if it is true that he wanted to please Slash and make him happy this way.... why didn't he mention the Slash-centered album in 1999?

This upgraded version is a much better excuse, explaination, justification and makes him look way better than what he responded to Loder three years before.

----

2008 Quote:

All add the whole quote....

"And I’m not talking change of styles or sounds etc. A lot of people bought that crap and me having gone in other directions seems to many to have verified that. Then you have the mind twisting equally as true horseshit in Slash's book but I have the rehearsal tapes. There’s nothing but Slash based blues rock and he stopped it to both go solo and try to completely take over Guns. I read all this if Axl would’ve put words and melodies on it could’ve… That was denied and I didn’t walk till several months after having 3 to 4 hour phone conversations nearly every day with Slash trying to reach a compromise. I was specifically told no lyrics, no melodies, no changes to anything and to sing what I was told or fuck off."

What other directions did he go with CD? LOL

Even though I can feel an old Guns vibe to some of the songs in CD (obviously, Axl was always a main presence in all GN'R music), the truth is that most original GN'R fans do not like the album, cannot lump it with any previous GN'R release and most songs on it are fully charged with computer sounds, layers, drums that sound more like pop than rock, etc. Therefore, when he says that he's been verified in his previous claims of not having wanted to change the style or the sound, this is pretty much not true.

The rest of the quote should be taken for what it is.... a case of "he said, she said" (just switch he for she).... Hard to prove and only left to believe in the word of one or the other.

I also wanted to copy the whole quote, because this is where Axl talks about not being allowed to write lyrics, melodies, etc and to just "shut up and sing" . And this is the same guy that a year later says 'Sorry' isn't about Slash
Maybe it is not completely about Slash but dude, that line!

And another thing..... this version is pretty similar to what he said in 2002, which is the upgraded version of what he said in 1999.  It looks to me that this version works way better than what he said in 1999, because ever since the 2002 Press Release, he uses the Slash-based album as the "proof" of him not wanting to change directions. Is this a well thought-out response, in contrast to the other one, where he was being more spontaneous?

If I had to believe something, I'd definitely believe the 1999 version. Why? Because it is closer in time with the events that led to the break up; it sounds more "fresh" to me, less lawyer-filtered.

---

2009 Quote:

"All this time, most thought I changed the direction with 'Illusions.' A lot of nonsense theories, speculation and complete nonrealities put together by others, based on [...] [and] one interview taken out of context I did with Kurt Loder where I said I hated 'Appetite.' That sentence has been used and twisted in every conceivable way since to vilify me and purports to prove my guilt and responsibility, when I wasn't speaking to the music itself but the overwhelming and at that time seemingly drowning success of our record.

My statement was in specific response to the feelings I had listening to DJs at the L.A. hard rock station KNAC at the time complaining about having to play the entire record for the umpteenth time for fans. I simply wanted to make another record and have it be as good or better. If you don't think I would've liked to have five 'Appetites' and been living like the Stones at the time, you're high. With that, any other avenue I hoped to pursue musically would more than likely been available as well. [...]"

Same as before..... as years went by, Axl learned to improve his version of events, by either adding new elements or finally getting to explain in more length the things that, according to him, were used to prove him guilty of breaking up the band.

All in all, what he's explaining here is that he was fed up with AFD and the fact that it felt like he could never make another album that would top it.

So, when the other day I said that Axl doesn't want to know a thing with AFD, this quote sorts of validates my comments. I said that in a loose way because I'm always kind of joking or I want to type fast but I didn't mean that he hates the album because the songs suck or the sound sucks. What I mean is that he's tired of the whole AFD being the only bar to measure the success of any other GN'R release, and that he's always manifested a need to make different things, to evolve that sound, the lyrics, etc.

The Axl Rose of this interview is even angrier than before. Here's where he calls Slash a cancer better be removed; the non-possibility of EVER reuniting with him and that Slash should have never been in Guns from the beginning. Aside from criticizing him as a guitar player, saying Slash doesn't have passion anymore and it is a whore for the limelight

The whole interview feels like a bitter snake is talking, so I think most of his words should be taken with a grain of salt, especially because we know everything that happened in the following years up to now.

---

2 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Source about CD songs written when Slash was still in the band (apart from TIL)?

The source is myself  

Seriously, I don't think neither way can be proven to be true or not, just speculation on our part. In my opinion, some CD songs had their seed planted around that time, maybe as ideas, drafts, demos... None of us would have access to that.

* This article from 1994 says Axl is writing new material for the GN'R album....... how could anyone possibly know if that material was later used for CD or not?

* In this other article from 1995, Zakk Wylde talks about him joining GN'R to jam and possibly write with them. From the jamming, Zakk said about Axl: "He's got a batch of good ideas, piano things that sound really cool."
Was that material that Axl later used for CD?....... Unknown

What makes me think that some of the CD songs were created or have their roots during this time, it is mostly because of things said by Axl, like when he mentioned he wrote the song 'Oklahoma' because of his Court encounters with Erin. Then TWAT and IRS, being indicative of his relationship with Stephanie.

* Here's a Slash quote from Nov 1995 mentioning the ballads 'issue' (I don't think the only song Axl was writing back then was TIL): "I don't give a fuck about doing epic videos and so on and so forth, or talking about my ex-wife or ex-girlfriend. It's part of Axl's trip - he sees what he's singing, y'know?". That quote makes me think that maybe Axl was either working on 'Oklahoma' or 'Street Of Dreams'.

* This is a chat with Slash from Oct 1996:
Are Guns N' Roses back together in the studio as a band, or are you recording your various parts separately?
Slash: At this point in time we have only been collaborating together. But we have been doing mostly Axl's material.

If we take in consideration the amount of time Axl uses to make his songs, then I find it strange that by 1999, he was already recording 70 songs with his new band. This is also why I assume that many CD songs started back then, in some way or another, and I don't think Axl would have got rid of his own material just like that. I'm sure he's used some, if not all, of the things he was writing for old GN'R. And of course, there's the chance that many of them didn't make it to ChinDem and are still sitting inside the Vault.

---

About your theory with Tobias and stuff.... yeah, I think the scenario you present is very plausible. It is obvious that bringing that guy in was like putting the finger in the wound. A typical Axl thing if you think about it ...... look at it as a relationship between man and woman (or any other combination to be fair ), they've oftenly alluded to the band as a "marriage".... so what Axl does? Instead of fixing it with the band members, the originals, the ones that are part of the problem, he thinks that a person from the outside will be the solution .... pretty much like when he suggested to Erin that Adriana should move in to live with them and teach Erin how to be good in bed

4 hours ago, Blackstar said:

And he disliked Tobias both as a guitarist and as a person. We don’t know Tobias (as a person), as the guy has never spoken, but judging from that Duff didn’t like him either, and also that even Tommy Stinson said that he was arrogant, it seems that there was indeed a problem with his character. Marc Canter said that Slash thought Tobias wasn't cool and didn't have the right image for the band. I was under the impression that Tobias was among Axl's Indiana friends who had come to LA after GnR made it (so Slash and Duff knew him and disliked him beforehand), but according to Marc, Axl invited him from Indiana to come and help. And of course it's reasonable that Slash/Duff didn't like him even only for that - a random Axl's friend from Indiana to help? Also, given the situation between them already during the tour, they were negative towards anyone who was "Axl's guy". And apparently Tobias did everything to fulfill that role; Dizzy was Axl's guy too, but it seems that he knew to keep his mouth shut, while Tobias didn't.

Tobias lasted less than a fart in a jar so I think that says it all. Slash and Duff must have laughed their asses off when they found out.

Of course it was insulting for them to bring that guy with no fucking credits into a megaband like GN'R .... it is odd because Axl seems to have this thing for complex stuff, sophisticated shit but then he pulls out a Tobias or a DJ Ashba and you are left wondering WTF?

 

[Mona]

You all know a LOT and I don’t yet, so feel free to correct me if I make a fact mistake

Axl said that uyi was straying from their sound, but in my opinion, uyi worked for them and while I love afd and would take 10 of them happily, I’m not sure if gnr would’ve been able or even willing to make another appetite. Even if Axl said he was ready to create another afd-style album, the band wasn’t living on the streets anymore, that afd-era us against them pack mentality was pretty much gone when they started turning against each other. Appetite was created because of the way they were living.

A Slash-oriented blues rock/traditional album would’ve been possible if Axl did agree to it, but would they (especially Axl) have been able to accept whatever it was that they would’ve pulled together? You can't really force yourself to work with people you can't get along with and by that time, there was a lot of conflict in the band. I’m not a musician, but I write and I think that even if it is possible to force yourself into creating, it’s most likely not going to be that good, because you are not putting everything you have into it. I’m not sure that album would’ve had better fate than chinese. And even if they had made that one more traditional album, things could’ve still gone off the rails after that.

Moreover, what pulled me to them is the difference between afd and uyi. They had a lot more ahead, you can hear it with coma, locomotive, breakdown (underrated) and estranged- maybe an overstatement, but they could’ve been the next queen or beatles or stones. Of course, some would prefer them to stay afd-style. I love afd’s rawness and I love illusion epics and I do think that one doesn’t rule out the other. By remaking afd, it could’ve possibly created the acdc thing- I like acdc as much as the next person, but most of the songs I’ve heard sound the same to me.

I think they all made a lot of mistakes- the drugs, drinking, apathy that stemmed from it, their failure to communicate  Also, Axl figured he should be the one to impose progress and by doing it, whether it was his plan or not, he alienated others. Change has to happen naturally.

Also, I noticed how much I wrote Axl’s name. Maybe it’s just me, but I haven’t seen anything from Slash or Duff that corroborates Axl’s story about his willingness to write a “Slash album” or an afd-style album. I tried to find something, but I’m kind of tired and also not very good at it. I’ll try to find something later. Though in the one that @killuridols posted (http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=16), Slash does say: "But from my point of view, I just wanna do a brash hard rock record, with maybe one ballad on it. Ask Axl the same question and you'd get a completely different answer"

Maybe there really wasn’t another way this could have gone. Nobody from afd5 has strayed very far from rock in their solo work. You take the afd lineup apart; those solo albums are exactly what you get. If afd wasn’t possible and neither was progress or just a simple hard rock album- maybe that was it.

I’m speculating and I realize that. It’s a lot of question marks everywhere.

Also

From all those interviews @Blackstar posted, I don’t think nuguns ever even had a chance with Axl, subconsciously or not. He keeps talking about how Slash was the only guitarist who could do what he wanted.

Sorry if the post is a bit incoherent- like I said, I didn’t get much sleep tonight

[Blackstar]

7 hours ago, killuridols said:

This one is pretty obvious to me. He's criticizing or implying that Slash and Duff were not so open to new sounds and new fads, while he was the one into the rare new things and willing to incorporate more modern sounds in a GN'R album.

I said in my first post that I think he did want to incorporate some modern elements. I didn't base my conclusions only on what Axl said, I filtered what everybody said. The bolded parts are based mainly on Slash's 1995 interviews (some of which you posted below), Marc Canter's accounts and some secondary sources (and, as you see, I included the ballads).

16 hours ago, Blackstar said:

It seems that in 1994 (which was the crucial year) Axl, being a psychological mess with the lawsuits and all the other shit, didn't have a clear mind about what exactly wanted to do musically and how to do it. He didn't like Slash's songs as they were apart from 3-4 and wanted to use some of the ideas to "develop" them (and Duff agreed with him). To what? AFD 2 couldn't be an option without Izzy (and at that point they were at odds with him - also Slash said in an early 94 interview that he didn't want to return to that era). I think he was trying to fill Izzy's gap with a new strong element, looking for a guitarist that could "challenge" Slash (but Slash didn't want that) and leaning towards incorporating 90s grungy elements (maybe something a bit like... Velvet Revolver) plus his ballads; so he did want to evolve but not change the direction in a radical/CD-ish kind of way. But he wasn't in position to provide a clear input, then he brought in Tobias (who was "Axl's guy" but definitely not a guy to radically change the direction)... And Slash wasn't willing to go through another UYI process (or worse, as it seemed to be) -neither in terms of the time it had taken to be finished nor of Axl's "messing up" with the songs and the production etc; he wanted to put out an album and go back on the road - and moreover he hated Tobias. So he took his songs and made his Snakepit album (the timeline is not clear on whether Slash recorded Snakepit before the Sympathy For The Devil incident or after).

 

7 hours ago, killuridols said:

3) "So once it was really understood by me that I'm really not going to be able to make the right old-style Guns N' Roses record, and if I try to take into consideration what Guns did on "Appetite," which was to kind of be a melting pot of a lot things that were going on, plus use past influences, I could make the right record if I used my influences from what I've been listening to that everybody else is listening to out there."

He's not REALLY saying that he was not allowed to make an album that sounded like AFD..... What he's saying is that when AFD was conceived, they did it by using the influences that everybody brought before they joined the band. He says "melting pot" of ideas and past influences. AFD was influenced by AC/DC, Aerosmith, a bit of Rolling Stones, etc. bands and artists that they ALL liked, more or less.

Then he adds "I could make the right record if I used my influences from what I've been listening to (...)" meaning that he was not allowed to use his CURRENT influences (90's) when they were trying to write that GN'R album that never saw the light.

Combined with what he said before, he was implying that Slash and Duff were not open to incorporate the sounds/styles/ideas that Axl was cooking in his mind from the things he had been listening to at the time (NIN, White Zombie, hip-hop, grunge), and for that reason he understood that he was not allowed to be creative the way he was when they wrote AFD. But nothing to do with the AFD sound. He was talking about the AFD writing process, the creative process behind.

I don't agree that the bolded is what he says here. Yes, he talks about AFD as a melting pot, not as musical direction. But I didn't include this quote in relation to what he said before about what he wanted to do with Slash and Duff. The reason I included it is because he was talking about what he could do after Slash left (his could here is not referring to the past, but to the present); he means that since the "Slash element" is not there anymore, he had to change the direction, but with usiing the "AFD melting pot recipe".

7 hours ago, killuridols said:

The inconsistency that I find here is that if it is true that he wanted to please Slash and make him happy this way.... why didn't he mention the Slash-centered album in 1999?

The term "traditional" he used in 1999 album can be a container for blues. Also in 1999 it was a phone interview, a conversation, with Kurt Loder asking something else etc., while in 2002 it was a press release and he was able to give a comparatively more detailed and coherent version.

In my opinion there is something that supports what he says about a traditional/blues-based album: The choice of Zakk Wylde. Zakk was Ozzy's guitarist, but at that time he also had a solo band (which he wrote the songs for) and its style was heavy blues rock with southern rock elements:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3y2egVYDxPo

I think he brought him to please Slash. Slash himself says in his book that Axl's intentions were good.

The fact that Slash didn't want a lead guitarist is another matter, but I think it shows something about the direction.

7 hours ago, killuridols said:

2008 Quote:

All add the whole quote....

"And I’m not talking change of styles or sounds etc. A lot of people bought that crap and me having gone in other directions seems to many to have verified that. Then you have the mind twisting equally as true horseshit in Slash's book but I have the rehearsal tapes. There’s nothing but Slash based blues rock and he stopped it to both go solo and try to completely take over Guns. I read all this if Axl would’ve put words and melodies on it could’ve… That was denied and I didn’t walk till several months after having 3 to 4 hour phone conversations nearly every day with Slash trying to reach a compromise. I was specifically told no lyrics, no melodies, no changes to anything and to sing what I was told or fuck off."

What other directions did he go with CD? LOL

Even though I can feel an old Guns vibe to some of the songs in CD (obviously, Axl was always a main presence in all GN'R music), the truth is that most original GN'R fans do not like the album, cannot lump it with any previous GN'R release and most songs on it are fully charged with computer sounds, layers, drums that sound more like pop than rock, etc. Therefore, when he says that he's been verified in his previous claims of not having wanted to change the style or the sound, this is pretty much not true.

No, it's not what he says here. This quote is (Nu)Axlian language at its most incomprehensible , and one needs to read it three times to understand what he means. I'll translate the first two sentences into English:

And I’m not talking change of styles or sounds etc. --> I didn't take control of the band/the name (this paragraph is in reference to this subject) to change the style/sound/direction.

A lot of people bought that crap and me having gone in other directions seems to many to have verified that. --> A lot of people believe that this was the reason I did it, and the fact that I went in another musical direction with CD is used by many people as verification that this is what I wanted to do with the "old band" too (but I didn't).

7 hours ago, killuridols said:

I also wanted to copy the whole quote, because this is where Axl talks about not being allowed to write lyrics, melodies, etc and to just "shut up and sing" . And this is the same guy that a year later says 'Sorry' isn't about Slash
Maybe it is not completely about Slash but dude, that line!

Imo this line could be about other people.

7 hours ago, killuridols said:

So, when the other day I said that Axl doesn't want to know a thing with AFD, this quote sorts of validates my comments. I said that in a loose way because I'm always kind of joking or I want to type fast but I didn't mean that he hates the album because the songs suck or the sound sucks. What I mean is that he's tired of the whole AFD being the only bar to measure the success of any other GN'R release, and that he's always manifested a need to make different things, to evolve that sound, the lyrics, etc.

I disagree Anyway, yeah, he always wanted to make different things, but I think it's obvious from the 1999 interview already that he has accepted the fact that AFD will be the defining GnR album forever and that it can never be surpassed. And this doesn't mean that he wouldn't want to do hard rock ever again.

7 hours ago, killuridols said:

Seriously, I don't think neither way can be proven to be true or not, just speculation on our part. In my opinion, some CD songs had their seed planted around that time, maybe as ideas, drafts, demos... None of us would have access to that.

Okay, yeah (I'm not quoting the whole thing with the sources), maybe he had written some more piano stuff apart from TIL, which might have ended up on CD as well. But all that wasn't intended to be on an album like CD then. It was the usual ballad stuff he'd been doing since 1983.

In relation to his productivity during that period, both Slash and Zakk Wylde have said that they didn't hear Axl sing at all. Slash also said that none of the songs had vocals and Zakk that Axl didn't write any lyrics at all... I read a Duff 1996 interview where he said he was trying to convince Axl to make an appearance with The Neurotic Outsiders or at least attend a show, but, although he liked the band, he wouldn't go...

4 hours ago, Mona said:

A Slash-oriented blues rock/traditional album would’ve been possible if Axl did agree to it, but would they (especially Axl) have been able to accept whatever it was that they would’ve pulled together? You can't really force yourself to work with people you can't get along with and by that time, there was a lot of conflict in the band. I

They disagreed about the Snakepit songs. Axl and Duff didn't like them.

4 hours ago, Mona said:

Maybe it’s just me, but I haven’t seen anything from Slash or Duff that corroborates Axl’s story about his willingness to write a “Slash album” or an afd-style album. I tried to find something, but I’m kind of tired and also not very good at it. I’ll try to find something later.

I posted a quote from Duff (1996) in my other post about an "AFD oriented album". See also my reply to killuridols above about the choice of Zakk Wylde.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Blackstar

[killuridols]

1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

In my opinion there is something that supports what he says about a traditional/blues-based album: The choice of Zakk Wylde. Zakk was Ozzy's guitarist, but at that time he also had a solo band (which he wrote the songs for) and its style was heavy blues rock with southern rock elements:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3y2egVYDxPo

I think he brought him to please Slash. Slash himself says in his book that Axl's intentions were good.

Yeah, it could be. But I think that there's also the possibility that Axl did that because he saw that Paul Tobias was disliked by Slash....kinda to compensate for bringing Paul and causing havoc....but in reality, Zakk never joined in a formal manner, he was there just to jam and entertain a bit.

Like @Mona pointed out from that interview, there is much more evidence of Slash and the rest of the band saying they wanted to work in a traditional GN'R album and saying Axl was being the obstacle to it. 

IMO, the idea that Axl wanted to make a Slash-oriented album is something he made up later in time, even if he says that he has the recordings of the jams or whatever.... Of course he has them, but that's because Axl never played anything during those jams, or probably just parts. Axl's work comes after the songs are structured.

Gilby Kerrang! 1994: "Well, it's an Axl thing. He just wasn't into what we were doing, so he's kind of rethinking what he wants to do. He just kind of threw a wrench into everything that me, Slash and Matt had worked to. And then Duff came in."

"For a while there, I contributed a lot. But now, I don't know how much I'm going to contribute. Like I said, Axl pretty much threw a wrench into everything. He didn't like what we were all doing."

"It's Axl's band, and he runs it the way he wants. And whatever he wants to do is gonna happen. So we can work on songs all year long and come up with 20 songs, but when it comes down to it, if Axl writes 10 songs, he'll go, 'I want my 10 songs on the record'. And that's what's gonna happen.

"So as much as we work on 'em, it doesn't mean anything, because they may never get anywhere. Slash and I are working on some stuff right now together. It's stuff that we put together for the next GN'R record, stuff that isn't gonna make it now. So we're putting something together. We don't know if this is gonna be a Slash solo album or what it's gonna be."

Slash RS 1995: "I just want to do a really cool Guns record, and I don't want to push it 'cause I don't  feel like we have to rush it out to keep up with the Joneses. So when everybody feels comfortable doing that... I don't know exactly where [Rose's] head is at, as far as what that should sound like. It changes from month to month."

I have a hard time believing that Gilby and Matt were into the music that Axl liked by then, so I think it's pretty fair to say that they were probably working on an album that sounded much more like traditional GN'R than anything else.

It is also interesting how Gilby talks about working on songs that will never get released.... Pretty much how some of the nuGN'R members felt after years and years of working on songs that didn't see the light. Bumblefoot, Ashba, Finck...all fed up of waiting or having their work rejected.

It shows a tendency in Axl's way of doing things. This is why I think it is easier to believe these guys rather than Axl.

2 hours ago, Blackstar said:

I’m not talking change of styles or sounds etc. --> I didn't take control of the band/the name (this paragraph is in reference to this subject) to change the style/sound/direction.

A lot of people bought that crap and me having gone in other directions seems to many to have verified that. --> A lot of people believe that this was the reason I did and the fact that I went in another musical direction with CD is used by many people as verification that this is what I wanted to do with the "old band" too (but I didn't).

Ok. It makes sense. But it doesn't prove anything just because he's saying it. He made an album the way everybody predicted.

You can say "no, that's the only choice he was left because there was no Slash to replicate the AFD style" but the truth is that there are many guitarists out there that could have played traditional rock for a new GN'R album. Yeah, no one is exactly like Slash, but even with the style he went for on CD, he tried to add some old Guns elements like big ass solos and complex songs. Probably only so that he could legitimate the album in some way and make it more appealing to the traditional GN'R fan.

2 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Imo this line could be about other people.

I'm not sure how many people out there are capable of telling Axl Rose to "shut up and sing" without bad consequences for their lives.

Probably only Steven and Matt Sorum  and both were fired.

2 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Okay, yeah (I'm not quoting the whole thing with the sources), maybe he had written some more piano stuff apart from TIL, which might have ended up on CD as well. But all that wasn't intended to be on an album like CD then. It was the usual ballad stuff he'd been doing since 1983.

In relation to his productivity during that period, both Slash and Zakk Wylde have said that they didn't hear Axl sing at all. Slash also said that none of the songs had vocals and Zakk that Axl didn't write any lyrics at all... I read a Duff 1996 interview where he said he was trying to convince Axl to make an appearance with The Neurotic Outsiders or at least attend a show, but, although he liked the band, he wouldn't go...

It was intended to be on the new GN'R album they were writing and I'm sure that much of CD sounds like what he wanted to sound back then (even if he didn't have an exact clear idea of what he wanted, it was in that direction at least).

Yeah, Axl not writing lyrics or singing, IMO, has to do with something he mentioned in that Loder interview from 1999, about wanting to change the way he was writing songs. Like with AFD he wrote the lyrics first and had to adapt the music to it but with the new album, he wanted to write music first and then have the music challenging him as a lyricist.

"I write the vocals last, because I wanted to invent the music first and push the music to the level that I had to compete against it. That's kind of tough. It's like you got to go in against these new guys who kicked ass. You finally got the song musically where you wanted to, and then you have to figure out how to go in and kick its ass and be one person competing against this wall of sound."

Don't know... maybe it was just an excuse to not do shit

2 hours ago, Blackstar said:

I posted a quote from Duff (1996) in my other post about an "AFD oriented album". See also my reply to killuridols above about the choice of Zakk Wylde.

Why would Slash say all the contrary to this belief then? It makes no sense to me. And these are things that Slash said right in the moment when things were actually going on. I'm sorry he's more lucky than Axl in terms that all the things he said are documented in the press, while what Axl said and did is just what others say he said and did. This is why it is so hard to believe him..... By 1999, he was so pissed off that it was the only time he would come out to say something but he could have easily made it up only to back up his claims.

Slash, Nov 1995, Metal Hammer: 

"Anyway, we accomplished that and then we took off on this world-wide fucking mega-rock star thing. So then we come home, and I'm writing material that's just the same as the kind of material I used to write in the old days, and Axl's whole trip was...

"Everybody used to go, "What's gonna happen when Guns is no longer.. when a new fad comes along?" or whatever. And I'd be, "I don't give a fuck". And I watched it happen, and it didn't matter to me. With Axl it mattered a hell of a lot. Next thing you know, he wants to be Pearl Jam, right? Why? I hate Pearl Jam anyway, so what's the point? And it's great to watch Pearl Jam going through what they're going through, cos I'm going, "See Axl?"

"We do what we do the best that anybody does. Let's just go out and do a club tour, a theatre tour, and fucking get back down to where we have some validity with an audience that we can relate to. But Axl was all fucking.. he wants to be on MTV, he wants to do Unplugged, he wants to be this, he wants to be that. So we didn't see eye to eye, and that's where a lot of that bullshit got started, and of course it was blown out of all proportion in the press.

"I played him the material that I was writing, and he was like, "I don't wanna do that kind of music." The stuff that he was into, I couldn't understand. So I took the material back - I was cool - and at the same time I started jamming with Matt (Sorum) at home. And Gilby was still my mate - I didn't have anything to do with him being fired from Guns - and we met up with Mike Inez, and all of a sudden I realised we had a band. I'm making a short story long here! And Eric (Dover) had this really innocent, natural, very "retro" kind of voice. And I was like "Cool!" y'know - play my ass off, the band's great, Eric sings the way he sings and so on - and we did an album in a short amount of time. And then I booked a tour, and at this point Axl turned around and wanted the material back. And that's where the big shit started, because I told him, "Dude, it's gone. If I remember correctly, it was turned down flat." And that's where we got threats of lawsuits and this, that and the other."

During this whole interview Slash sounds pissed off too. Saying a lot of bitter snake things as well.... so it's hard to tell what was really going back then. One thing is certain, they weren't agreeing on what the new GN'R album should have sounded like, but it is very difficult for me to believe that Slash didn't want to make a traditional rock album because that's his essence and what he's always done. If we can't believe his words then we should believe his music, his work. Same goes for Axl... CD is the album he WANTED to make, not the option he was left with.

 

[Blackstar]

2 hours ago, killuridols said:

Why would Slash say all the contrary to this belief then? It makes no sense to me. And these are things that Slash said right in the moment when things were actually going on. I'm sorry he's more lucky than Axl in terms that all the things he said are documented in the press, while what Axl said and did is just what others say he said and did. This is why it is so hard to believe him..... By 1999, he was so pissed off that it was the only time he would come out to say something but he could have easily made it up only to back up his claims.

I've read all the quotes you posted. Slash talks about 1994. The Duff quote is from 1996.

Slash has made contradictory claims over the years.

2 hours ago, killuridols said:

During this whole interview Slash sounds pissed off too. Saying a lot of bitter snake things as well.... so it's hard to tell what was really going back then. One thing is certain, they weren't agreeing on what the new GN'R album should have sounded like, but it is very difficult for me to believe that Slash didn't want to make a traditional rock album because that's his essence and what he's always done. If we can't believe his words then we should believe his music, his work. Same goes for Axl...

No one said that Slash didn't want to make a traditional album...

2 hours ago, killuridols said:

Same goes for Axl... CD is the album he WANTED to make, not the option he was left with.

I have a different opinion. Let's agree to disagree.

[killuridols]

20 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Slash has made contradictory claims over the years.

Like what...? Related to the recording of the album?

20 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

No one said that Slash didn't want to make a traditional album...

Axl did. Sort of. 

20 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I have a different opinion. Let's agree to disagree.

Let's agree that you are crazy 

Edited August 15, 2017 by killuridols

[Blackstar]

7 hours ago, killuridols said:

Like what...? Related to the recording of the album?

For example, nothing of what he said in 1995 about what Axl wanted to do (ballads, Pearl Jam sounding music etc) is in the book. He talks only about their disagreement on the Snakepit songs without saying what Axl wanted to do. Also in the period around 2000 he was saying that the reason the band broke up was "musical differences". In the book he says that it wasn't the reason and the media made it up.

And in 2008 he said that after what had happened during the tour, he wasn't interested in making a GnR album:

What was so incomprehensible?

I can live with most shit, but it was the fucking up the gigs that got me. You've got four other musicians and 80 people working their ass off to set up this stadium show up every night, and you've got 30,000 to 180,000 fans turning up to see it. Everybody is dependent on it all synchronising, so when you start sabotaging that for no good reason, it's the most unbeliev­ably selfish thing. I just couldn't live with it. I tried to keep it together even after Izzy split
[Izzy Stradlin, guitarist who left Guns after Rose walked off stage in Mannheim, Germany in 1991], but after touring Use Your Illusion I and II for 28 months I was mentally and physically exhausted, I had no interest in working on another Guns record.

Forming Slash's Snakepit as a side­ project probably increased tensions between Axl and yourself...
Maybe, but I needed to come back down to earth and rediscover what a rock 'n' roll  band is actually about. And by the time I'd come back from that, Axl had built this impenetrable cocoon around him. I can't knock the guy -  he's an incredibly complex character and that's what makes him who he is. But I never could understand how we couldn't continue doing what we'd set out to do in the first place. There was so much animosity between us, so little communication because of my personality faults and his. Finally, I couldn't stand it any more and I left, but then I ended up putting together exactly the  same kind of band again [Velvet Revolver, 2002]. l must have upset someone in a past life, I guess {laughs).

7 hours ago, killuridols said:

Axl did. At least from those quotes you posted, so I don't understand what's the disagreement.

He didn't say it as in Slash wanting to do another kind of music, but as a conspiracy theory that Slash was reluctant to work and develop the songs because he had an agenda etc.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Blackstar
added quote

[Alja]

On 14. 8. 2017 at 3:16 PM, killuridols said:

For those who don't visit the D&N section, the good ol' Gibbo posted this video taken by another forum member who happened to be outside the venue when Duff, Slash and London were rehearsing.

Does it sound like Guns N' Roses? 

I like it! 

 

Whoa! That lad swings on drums! He got The Roll (the opposite twin of Rock which completes it), that`s why it sounds AFD-ish, AC/DC-ish or Stones-ish. Finest, deep, swinging roll. Thanks for sharing.

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

Wow, so much to read.  This is great!  I'll have to settle in for the night I think.

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

1 hour ago, Alja said:

Whoa! That lad swings on drums! He got The Roll (the opposite twin of Rock which completes it), that`s why it sounds AFD-ish, AC/DC-ish or Stones-ish. Finest, deep, swinging roll. Thanks for sharing.

He's inherited his dad's natural groove. ^^

[Georgina Arriaga]

Thank you @Blackstar and @killuridols for such research.

I was reading in Instagram about the Buffalo concert tomorrow...how much people says that they are waiting 20 plus years to see GNR again....I wonder how Axl feels about that...there must be a lot of frustration and maybe a sense of wasted time? in stage you don't see it...but who knows?

[MillionsOfSpiders]

On 14/08/2017 at 3:17 PM, Blackstar said:

So another scenario: what if Duff is the new AC/DC bass player?

Why can I see this actually happening? 

 

Even some of the AC/DC fans think it's something Axl and Angus want, so they don't have to get an outsider 

I can just see Duff giraffin' around the devil horn stage. 

[Blackstar]

31 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

Why can I see this actually happening? 

 

Even some of the AC/DC fans think it's something Axl and Angus want, so they don't have to get an outsider 

I think it's possible too. Duff is very open on joining bands.

Although it's Angus's band and he'll hire whoever he wants, I think it'd be better if they call it something else, especially if Duff joins...

31 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

I can just see Duff giraffin' around the devil horn stage. 

Angus will make him stand in the back and take three steps forward only for the backing vocals

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by Blackstar

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

27 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

Why can I see this actually happening? 

 

Even some of the AC/DC fans think it's something Axl and Angus want, so they don't have to get an outsider 

I can just see Duff giraffin' around the devil horn stage. 

Quoted for truth.  That's what he does!!  Big ol' giraffe that he is.  Sexy.  But a giraffe. 

[MillionsOfSpiders]

6 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I think it's possible too. Duff is very open on joining bands.

Although it's Angus's band and he'll hire whoever he wants, I think it'd be better if they call it something else, especially if Duff joins...

Or Angus will make him stand in the back and take three steps forward only for the backing vocals

 

That guy who the AC/DC fans trust as an insider hinted it would be Duff, as I remember, that's why they think he's in lol. 

It would be better if they called it something else, but wouldn't they rely on mostly playing the AC/DC back catalogue?