GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2

[killuridols]

The reliability issue is something assumed by the fans but never confirmed by either Axl, Slash or Duff.

Actually, it looks to me like a problem of hearing comprehension, because the only moment when they talked about reliability issues, they are thrown on Izzy's back, not Steven.

Please listen carefully to Axl response, he sorts of stutters and doubts when replying about Steven. He mentions the back surgery and then he goes like "I had no idea about that", "I don't know" but I can't understand what he really means by that.... Looks like he didn't know Steven was going to join? 

Jump to minute 12:14

its pretty confusing...

[cindy1985]

1 minute ago, killuridols said:

 

Ok, I just checked it out.

Im not sure how your opinion on that connects with the debate that someone else started because I called some posters "the word that is not banned but it is antagonistic" .....

But to reply to your post, well, I disagree that Axl is the one who held the band together... I don't see how, really.... From 1990 until 1993, the band started to disintegrate, losing Steven first and Izzy next but Slash and Duff were not absent, in spite of their addictions.

Slash was the one in charge of looking for Steven's replacement. They finished the UYI albums, Slash wrote amazing epic guitar parts for most of the songs. Duff helped too. Izzy was there and wrote until he was gone.... I mean, in what sense was Axl alone holding the band together? Actually, he was an element of contempt in many opportunities, he only communicated with the rest of the guys via Doug Goldstein...when tour started, he went full on riots, St. Louis, starting shows late or cancelling..... Really, I have problems seeing how he added extra help to keep the band going on.

As for your opinion about Steven, I think it could be the case that he does love them for what they represent to him (the band mates with whom he made it big, the biggest success of his life) but at the same time feeling disappointed for how things turned out and how the friendship got mixed up with the business part. It is not easy to keep a friendship and make business with your friends, there are always frictions and disagreements.

Its hard for me to see the contradiction. 

 i didnt read the beginning of conversation i just answered to the post..i refered to the years 86-89 axl had the less problems of drugs and alcohol.. he was the only guy who could give a serious interview the early years.. just remember what happened when duff and slash went to mtv to receive the awards. For me guns ended when izzy left the band that is 91. After that the whole chemistry ended, they became something else.. For steven i believe that he is the only guy for classic line up who wants the reunion no matter money. But i cant call somebody as a brother and then call him @@@@hole.  And for the history believe that all members made mistakes i dont want to accuse just one person... Slash is a real legend as a musician and i respect him for that but he wasnt able to take the control of this band due to his problems.. Thats my opinion.. 

[cindy1985]

9 minutes ago, killuridols said:

The reliability issue is something assumed by the fans but never confirmed by either Axl, Slash or Duff.

Actually, it looks to me like a problem of hearing comprehension, because the only moment when they talked about reliability issues, they are thrown on Izzy's back, not Steven.

Please listen carefully to Axl response, he sorts of stutters and doubts when replying about Steven. He mentions the back surgery and then he goes like "I had no idea about that", "I don't know" but I can't understand what he really means by that.... Looks like he didn't know Steven was going to join? 

Jump to minute 12:14

its pretty confusing...

the main difference between izzy and steven is that izzy didnt give an interview about reunion ... the first time he tweeted was "at this point in time'' that he wont participate... and after this interview said about money.

[cindy1985]

23 minutes ago, Padme said:

Again the reliability issue. How can we know for sure if he is not given a chance to play a whole show or a handfull of shows? Fans say the same thing about Izzy

steven said that they call him only to play several shows and not to be part of the reunion. As for izzy i read that they want to include him but with less money..for izzy nobady knows something speciffic..

[Tori72]

 

58 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

All by Axl only fans? 

That was my point. They all get a ton of shit from all directions.

(I guess I got out of the wrong side of the bed today or something) lol

Sorry, did I say what you already said? 

 

I’m lost in discussion. 

Edited April 25, 2018 by Tori72

[Natty]

Short topic change

Is someone here going to the skid row concert next week in Munich??

I'll be there on my own cause only I am as crazy to travel from Vienna to Munich for Skid Row. But I love them. my 2nd fav.band after GNR  

[Tori72]

3 minutes ago, Natty said:

Short topic change

Is someone here going to the skid row concert next week in Munich??

I'll be there on my own cause only I am as crazy to travel from Vienna to Munich for Skid Row. But I love them. my 2nd fav.band after GNR  

Nope. But have fun! 

[MillionsOfSpiders]

20 minutes ago, Tori72 said:

 

Sorry, did I say what you already said? 

 

I’m lost in discussion. 

I don't know, me too, I have a brain ache right now.

[killuridols]

20 minutes ago, cindy1985 said:

 i didnt read the beginning of conversation i just answered to the post..i refered to the years 86-89 axl had the less problems of drugs and alcohol.. he was the only guy who could give a serious interview the early years.. just remember what happened when duff and slash went to mtv to receive the awards. For me guns ended when izzy left the band that is 91. After that the whole chemistry ended, they became something else.. For steven i believe that he is the only guy for classic line up who wants the reunion no matter money. But i cant call somebody as a brother and then call him @@@@hole.  And for the history believe that all members made mistakes i dont want to accuse just one person... Slash is a real legend as a musician and i respect him for that but he wasnt able to take the control of this band due to his problems.. Thats my opinion.. 

Yes, but that doesn't mean he wasn't causing problems behind scenes and that the whole band was not lost, even back then.

Obviously, Slash and Duff were visibly drunk/drugged during interviews but the important thing is that they were working. I can't recall a story of a show that had to be cancelled because Slash was drugged to the point of not being able to play. I remember that Axl called out Slash and embarrassed him publicly because of drugs, but Slash argues that episode, so I don't know...

During those years, they had started having trouble to write together. Read the Chicago episode in Slash book, for example. Axl and Izzy were drifting away. Axl took a month to arrive there, when everybody was almost gone.

There are several accounts from ex-managers and other industry people telling how difficult it was to keep them focused and working on something. No one wanted to sign them because they were trouble.

Axl and Slash were having problems with the law, being accused of rape, they had to lay low for a while.... I mean, I don't know where this notion of Axl holding the band together comes from because when you learn the history of the band, you realize that it was a constant mess and that Axl was far from being an element of unity in the band. He was always an antagonist.

Duff later became the diplomat who dealt with them but I guess during the early years, it was Izzy the one in charge to soothe Axl.

As for Steven, I'm not sure he's called Axl a brother.... I think Steven has a tighter relationship with Slash and in a lesser extent with Duff. Actually, it looks to me that Steven is in good terms with all of them (even if he criticizes them) except for Axl.

Slash son's band will open for an Steven show so I really doubt that Slash would allow his son to play for the enemy, if Steven and him had such a bad relationship.

About Slash taking control of the band.... huh.... I guess you omitted the part where a paper made Axl the owner of the band, so sober or not, I have doubts he (or anyone else) could have done anything against that.

Axl made as legal maneuver that put everybody under his control, so it has nothing to do with sobriety, it was a power play.

 

13 minutes ago, cindy1985 said:

the main difference between izzy and steven is that izzy didnt give an interview about reunion ... the first time he tweeted was "at this point in time'' that he wont participate... and after this interview said about money.

No, the reliability issues have nothing to do with this, as everything said was many months after the current tour started.

From the video I posted, which is the only time Axl and Duff talked about the reunion,  the reliability issues are all put on Izzy's shoulders and about Steven is pretty unclear what happened. Not even Axl can explain it.

[cindy1985]

4 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Yes, but that doesn't mean he wasn't causing problems behind scenes and that the whole band was not lost, even back then.

Obviously, Slash and Duff were visibly drunk/drugged during interviews but the important thing is that they were working. I can't recall a story of a show that had to be cancelled because Slash was drugged to the point of not being able to play. I remember that Axl called out Slash and embarrassed him publicly because of drugs, but Slash argues that episode, so I don't know...

During those years, they had started having trouble to write together. Read the Chicago episode in Slash book, for example. Axl and Izzy were drifting away. Axl took a month to arrive there, when everybody was almost gone.

There are several accounts from ex-managers and other industry people telling how difficult it was to keep them focused and working on something. No one wanted to sign them because they were trouble.

Axl and Slash were having problems with the law, being accused of rape, they had to lay low for a while.... I mean, I don't know where this notion of Axl holding the band together comes from because when you learn the history of the band, you realize that it was a constant mess and that Axl was far from being an element of unity in the band. He was always an antagonist.

Duff later became the diplomat who dealt with them but I guess during the early years, it was Izzy the one in charge to soothe Axl.

As for Steven, I'm not sure he's called Axl a brother.... I think Steven has a tighter relationship with Slash and in a lesser extent with Duff. Actually, it looks to me that Steven is in good terms with all of them (even if he criticizes them) except for Axl.

Slash son's band will open for an Steven show so I really doubt that Slash would allow his son to play for the enemy, if Steven and him had such a bad relationship.

About Slash taking control of the band.... huh.... I guess you omitted the part where a paper made Axl the owner of the band, so sober or not, I have doubts he (or anyone else) could have done anything against that.

Axl made as legal maneuver that put everybody under his control, so it has nothing to do with sobriety, it was a power play.

 

No, the reliability issues have nothing to do with this, as everything said was many months after the current tour started.

From the video I posted, which is the only time Axl and Duff talked about the reunion,  the reliability issues are all put on Izzy's shoulders and about Steven is pretty unclear what happened. Not even Axl can explain it.

i dont try to defend axl.. i just say that he is not the only responsible...of course he made serious mistakes but the other guys made too.. i read slash book and i remember the fact about drugs...If axl became a tyrant 4 people didnt do anything about this...As for izzy i believe that he is totally right, no because iam fan of him,but a guy who had such a contribution on most of the songs you did not behave like that. Time will tell us .

[killuridols]

5 minutes ago, cindy1985 said:

i dont try to defend axl.. i just say that he is not the only responsible...of course he made serious mistakes but the other guys made too.. i read slash book and i remember the fact about drugs...If axl became a tyrant 4 people didnt do anything about this...As for izzy i believe that he is totally right, no because iam fan of him,but a guy who had such a contribution on most of the songs you did not behave like that. Time will tell us .

No one with a bit of world and a life lived through would believe the problems in the band were exclusively Axl's fault. All of them had their own shit, demons to deal with but they also had a dream that brought them together.

However, it is also unfair to say that Axl held the band together and that he was the element that kept it going because this is not true and it can verified via several sources.

The drugs seem to be a problem for each person involved but they didn't have a visible impact on the final products the band released. They made the albums and toured them. There's really nothing to blame drugs about that. Yes, drugs made Steven useless and they almost killed Slash, Izzy and Duff had an alcohol problem. But it cannot be said that drugs delayed albums and cancelled tours.

It is their egos what mainly torn the band apart. It came a point where they couldn't see eye to eye, find each other again, agree on the kind of music or album they wanted to make, agree on the direction the band had to take after the big success.

Axl becoming a tyrant is not something other people must have stopped. It is like saying that since a rapist cannot control himself, the women have to be pretty careful with what they wear in front of him......... Lol, no, it's not like that..... Axl should have never become a tyrant and realize by himself this behavior was damaging the band. Besides, I think there were several hints from the other guys and he didn't listen..... Why put a finger up Slash's ass by bringing a guy like Tobias to the room? Or to bring Zakk Wylde to duel with Slash?...... It makes no sense he played with Slash job like that.

[cindy1985]

32 minutes ago, killuridols said:

No one with a bit of world and a life lived through would believe the problems in the band were exclusively Axl's fault. All of them had their own shit, demons to deal with but they also had a dream that brought them together.

However, it is also unfair to say that Axl held the band together and that he was the element that kept it going because this is not true and it can verified via several sources.

The drugs seem to be a problem for each person involved but they didn't have a visible impact on the final products the band released. They made the albums and toured them. There's really nothing to blame drugs about that. Yes, drugs made Steven useless and they almost killed Slash, Izzy and Duff had an alcohol problem. But it cannot be said that drugs delayed albums and cancelled tours.

It is their egos what mainly torn the band apart. It came a point where they couldn't see eye to eye, find each other again, agree on the kind of music or album they wanted to make, agree on the direction the band had to take after the big success.

Axl becoming a tyrant is not something other people must have stopped. It is like saying that since a rapist cannot control himself, the women have to be pretty careful with what they wear in front of him......... Lol, no, it's not like that..... Axl should have never become a tyrant and realize by himself this behavior was damaging the band. Besides, I think there were several hints from the other guys and he didn't listen..... Why put a finger up Slash's ass by bringing a guy like Tobias to the room? Or to bring Zakk Wylde to duel with Slash?...... It makes no sense he played with Slash job like that.

 ok we have different opinion about the drama. 

[Alja]

Watching people around you dying on overdose or drug damage and watching your commerades going the same path killed many... He must have smelled rotting smell of their bodies and their dull eyes. Being with people who basically all what they care about is their next fix. It was easy for Axl to get the idea that he is the last one to have certain vision for the band. Instrument player can play pretty high and still sound good, not so singer. Now take a guy who is basically orphaned, disowned by his family, his hometown, all his roots, with band and few entourage people being his step family. He is sober enough to see this and he has this strange trait of no middle track, everything in him is extreme. There was one confession in Mick Wall`s book that major mistake management did was they were holding Axl apart from the rest. If there was task to put Axl on stage and make everything smooth running in any price... Axl was the element which differed Guns from other bands more than any other band member. So I wouldn`t tell he glued the band together. Still he is the poster boy, the most visible particle. 

Izzy was important to set the band and he was basically their first manager. He`s people-wise and was able to set things when Axl was just standing around having no clue. He was able to translate the world to Axl and Axl to the world and make him functioning; when I was going through books and interviews, there was always that bottom line of too intense, insecure, estranged guy with shitload of talent yet inability to go average and smoothly like most of people. He was gradually heavily loosing control over anything which held his world together and even with Slash book I had a feeling that Axl did all he could to make things work, even borrowing ideas from how other artist create, which, with lack of mutual communication inside the band gone sour and just ran vicious circle.

When Izzy was the first to deliver his tracks, he recorded it in an old fashioned rock`n`roll way (like Stones do), it must have been strong statement about where he wanted the band to be - and it`s not the way massive ballads recordings would work. 

Just sayin`.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Alja

[Kwick1]

First, I don't think calling each other derogatory names is called for whether or not the term is banned by the forum. 

Somehow, conversations always seem to come back to why the original 5 couldn't have lasted more than 5 years. What they released with AFD/ Lies was for lack of a better term magical given the problems they each were having. During those 5 years 1985-1990, GnR became the "biggest band in the world". That's a lot to happen when you have 5 members struggling with their own demons. Saying that Axl became a tyrant is only one sided view. If you don't get what you want, you're likely to have that view. Each member wanted GnR to go in a particular direction or stay the same.  I believe this is what ultimately broke up the original members of GnR-creative differences.  Axl takes so much of the blame, but his actions have always been what he believes is the best interest of GnR. In order to survive, something must continuously change and Axl knew that the band had to progress from AFD. Was I ready in 1991 for that progression? No. I didn't like all the people on stage during the UYI tour but I would never fault Axl for expanding GnR sound. 

 

[killuridols]

2 hours ago, Natty said:

Short topic change

Is someone here going to the skid row concert next week in Munich??

I'll be there on my own cause only I am as crazy to travel from Vienna to Munich for Skid Row. But I love them. my 2nd fav.band after GNR  

Lol, I wish I could go to Munich, not to see Skid Row though!

I can't conceive Skid Row without Baz, so I wouldn't attend the show even if they played right next door to me.

But if you still like the band, that is awesome you are travelling to see them

Im looking forward for Baz next album, he's shown some videos of him working in the studio with the other guys. Said he wants to try something new, something acoustic, so I can't wait to listen to that!

[Padme]

32 minutes ago, Kwick1 said:

Axl takes so much of the blame, but his actions have always been what he believes is the best interest of GnR. In order to survive, something must continuously change and Axl knew that the band had to progress from AFD

Fans of GN'R were fans of AFD, Lies and UYI kind of music. What made Axl believe that some new direction was going to make fans happy and willing to follow the band? 

I'm not saying they should clone AFD but not a huge departure from previous albums either. And in retrospective there was no winner here. Slash and Duff left. Axl created a new band. Some of those new members also left. Managers came and go as well. The album was 10 years in the making. And the public didn't care much about it. Where is the progress?

Slash and Duff had different bands. Izzy made songs for iTunes. Adler also had other bands and albums. Neither made any big impact except when Slash, Duff and Sorum made Velvelt Revolver. And it didn't last very long.

So we find ourselves with this reunion after 20 years. And still they can't get things 100% right for one reason or another. The shows are great. Slash is playing better than ever. Axl gets on stage on time. There is chemistry on stage. But they don't have the right managers. Izzy and Adler are not part of it for no clear reason. There is no album on the horizon. The set list is repetitive. Instead of a bunch of covers and CD songs that only 10 people care about. They should make a more real GN'R set list. And Slash has decided to keep going with Conspirators after the tour in Europe. Why he still cares about Conspirators? It just doesn't make any sense.

[killuridols]

There was no progress at all because 'Chinese Democracy' is an album made by Axl and other guys that are not Slash, Duff, Izzy and Steven.

The original lineup released only AFD and Lies, that is their statement. Then a new lineup made the Illusions, but had already lost the original drummer's feel.

What came after is not the product of the people who originally started the band. There's no evolution. There was change.

[Kwick1]

13 minutes ago, killuridols said:

There was no progress at all because 'Chinese Democracy' is an album made by Axl and other guys that are not Slash, Duff, Izzy and Steven.

The original lineup released only AFD and Lies, that is their statement. Then a new lineup made the Illusions, but had already lost the original drummer's feel.

What came after is not the product of the people who originally started the band. There's no evolution. There was change.

I will never convince you that CD is clearly GnR. I listened to it again side to side last week and its unmistakable GnR. Even were it not labeled GnR it's apparent from listening. GnR is more than the original 5 and more than the UYI line up. 

[Natty]

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

Lol, I wish I could go to Munich, not to see Skid Row though!

I can't conceive Skid Row without Baz, so I wouldn't attend the show even if they played right next door to me.

But if you still like the band, that is awesome you are travelling to see them

Im looking forward for Baz next album, he's shown some videos of him working in the studio with the other guys. Said he wants to try something new, something acoustic, so I can't wait to listen to that!

Many fans dont want to see them without Baz. First time I saw them without Baz was im 2013. I was very skeptic to see Johnny solinger singing but when I saw the band it was like "holy fuck" they just need any decent singer and they sound so great. I was really surprised that I enjoyed the show so much. And im the following years I was lucky that they came 3 other times to my country. They blew me away every time. And I like their songs a lot. 

Baz unfortunately came to Austria only in 2006 with Nu Gnr. I like his solo work but I also like some of the post-Baz era albums of Skid Row. Now they have another singer which seems to have a similar voice to Baz and I am sure I'll enjoy a lot the show next week.

So you would like to see Munich? why? it s not a very beautiful city in my opinion. 

[killuridols]

4 minutes ago, Natty said:

Many fans dont want to see them without Baz. First time I saw them without Baz was im 2013. I was very skeptic to see Johnny solinger singing but when I saw the band it was like "holy fuck" they just need any decent singer and they sound so great. I was really surprised that I enjoyed the show so much. And im the following years I was lucky that they came 3 other times to my country. They blew me away every time. And I like their songs a lot. 

Baz unfortunately came to Austria only in 2006 with Nu Gnr. I like his solo work but I also like some of the post-Baz era albums of Skid Row. Now they have another singer which seems to have a similar voice to Baz and I am sure I'll enjoy a lot the show next week.

So you would like to see Munich? why? it s not a very beautiful city in my opinion. 

I have not kept track of Skid Row post-Baz so I have no idea what they do now. I guess once I checked a video of the new singer but it didn't do anything for me. Skid Row with Baz is part of my teenage years so I guess that's why I cannot detach from him

I don't know about Munich, I like Germany in general and am too much influenced by their main thinkers, philosophers, sociologists.... I guess I'd love to see any German city, that's why I said what I said but Im not really saying it with much background information on that specific city, hehe.

[Natty]

5 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I have not kept track of Skid Row post-Baz so I have no idea what they do now. I guess once I checked a video of the new singer but it didn't do anything for me. Skid Row with Baz is part of my teenage years so I guess that's why I cannot detach from him

I don't know about Munich, I like Germany in general and am too much influenced by their main thinkers, philosophers, sociologists.... I guess I'd love to see any German city, that's why I said what I said but Im not really saying it with much background information on that specific city, hehe.

I understand. The soundtrack of my teenage years was also GNR and Skid Row and I hated the situation in the late 90 s where both bands parted ways with singers and original members.

Guns will only be Guns for me if Axl is singing and some other original members are involved whereas Skid Row is still Skid Row because 3 original members have always remained in the band. They never broke up they "only" changed some singers. Baz voice is great but not as unique as Axl s I suppose. 

the thing is that musicwise I am living in the past cause I still love most the bands of my teenage years. I cannot connect to the younger bands. their music seems boring to me. like volbeat for example

[Tori72]

9 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I have not kept track of Skid Row post-Baz so I have no idea what they do now. I guess once I checked a video of the new singer but it didn't do anything for me. Skid Row with Baz is part of my teenage years so I guess that's why I cannot detach from him

I don't know about Munich, I like Germany in general and am too much influenced by their main thinkers, philosophers, sociologists.... I guess I'd love to see any German city, that's why I said what I said but Im not really saying it with much background information on that specific city, hehe.

In case you’re coming I hope you’ll have people recommending you where to go and what to see. (If not, ask me ) There are some really cool and interesting places to go but if you don’t know where, Germany can be quite ugly, sorry to say.  lol 

[killuridols]

25 minutes ago, Natty said:

Guns will only be Guns for me if Axl is singing and some other original members are involved whereas Skid Row is still Skid Row because 3 original members have always remained in the band. They never broke up they "only" changed some singers. Baz voice is great but not as unique as Axl s I suppose. 

the thing is that musicwise I am living in the past cause I still love most the bands of my teenage years. I cannot connect to the younger bands. their music seems boring to me. like volbeat for example

Yes, I agree. Guns N' Roses is not Guns without Axl's voice, even if his voice has decliined from his prime. But at the same time I feel it is not Guns without Slash and lately, Ive come to appreciate Duff's input as well.

Baz voice is not unique but it is the Skid Row voice of the songs that made them popular and big, so in that sense, that's his trademark which is hard to replace. What popular song does the new Skid Row have?

I couldn't name one.....

LOL, I know what you mean about being attached to the past regarding to music. Same happens to me but I also think it is because I really dont have time to explore new stuff now.... while when I was a teen I could spend the whole day reading and listening to bands. Now I can barely listen to one song per day

25 minutes ago, Tori72 said:

In case you’re coming I hope you’ll have people recommending you where to go and what to see. (If not, ask me ) There are some really cool and interesting places to go but if you don’t know where, Germany can be quite ugly, sorry to say.  lol 

OMG, how encouraging!

Why is it ugly? Please explain.....

I've watched some YouTube things, people exploring and showing parts of Berlin, Kölhn (sp?), Frankfurt...... I guess I know what you mean but at the same time it would be pretty different to where I live in Argentina, so I cant say that I will not like it.... maybe I dont like other things, don't know...

 

Edited April 25, 2018 by killuridols

[alfierose]

I've had to clean up the last couple of pages of this thread. When a previous argument has been moved on from there is no need to reignite it @Ubukitty and anyone else that does this will end up with a warning/suspension.

[Lio]

1 minute ago, alfierose said:

I've had to clean up the last couple of pages of this thread.

Thank you! I don't like accusations that are completely false and made out of thin air