Help a Dumb American (Soccer)

[mrandyk]

Soccer. It's something I've tried to become more familiar with the past few Summers when the only other sport on TV is baseball, mainly tuning in to watch the USMNT in the World, Gold Cups and a few MLS matches, but no matter how much I watch I'm left with unanswered questions because I know zero fans of the sport. So I'm turning to the one forum I belong to that certainly has some Europeans who can enlighten this uninformed American.

Multiple Concurrent Competitions - How do teams prioritize their lineups for these? England is the model I am most familiar with, and it seems at any given time during your EPL schedule you can have Champions/Europa, FA Cup, and EFL Cup games. There is nothing remotely similar to this in American sports. Managers can't use their best players for every match, so which competitions do they hold above the rest of their schedule? Someone please rank the EPL, Champions, Europa, FA Cup, and EFL Cup titles in order of importance. (Also, the EFL Cup seems redundant with the FA Cup already being in place - am I wrong?).

Stoppage Time - What the hell is this? I'm led to believe it is added time to make up for breaks in the action (injury time, time until play resumes after a goal, time wasted when ball goes out, etc.), but it never makes any sense to me. Yesterday during the 2nd half of the US-Nicaragua game two different players were taken off on stretchers, two goals were scored, two (blocked) penalties occurred, and in the end they added 3 minutes. 10 minutes would have made more sense to me if they are actually trying to add all wasted time back. Why doesn't the sport just adopt a stopping clock for the prolonged breaks in action?

Ties - Another thing that basically doesn't exist in America. What's the consensus on these? To compete for 90 minutes and still have the potential to end precisely where we started is maddening to me. Just hold a shootout and name a winner while still giving the shootout loser their point for a draw at full time. That's how the NHL scores their regular season games after eliminating ties about 10 years ago.

Promotion/Relegation - Is it about the best/worst thing ever for a fanbase to be promoted/relegated? Moving up or down, I could see this leading to a completely uninteresting season the following year for the team as they either flounder in the top league or get stuck with a wholly uninspiring league schedule. I wish this was a thing in America. Team owners would actually have incentive to succeed and the Cleveland Browns would permanently reside in an amateur league.

Offside - I understand the rule and its importance to the game, but its enforcement seems so incredibly arbitrary to me. Who cares if the attackers nose was beyond the defender? You don't call the ball out unless it is entirely past the line, why doesn't that apply to offside too? I see great scoring chances waived off for a false offside more often than I'd like. It's like the one rule with no leniency in a game that is so loose in every other regard.

If anyone feels this should be in the existing Soccer thread go ahead and move it. Didn't think I should muck it up with posts on the game itself instead of its current events.

Edited July 16, 2017 by mrandyk

[Padme]

Multiple compatitions: In Europe (I think in South America and other places as well ) Each country has it own League. Besides that The Champions League is only for teams who are a) Champions of their respective leagues b) Those teams who finish in the top 4 in their Leagues. Europa League it is for teams who finish between 5 and 10 (or around there) in their respective leagues. So you have teams from England, Italy, Germany, Spain, etc playing against each other.

Ties, there is tie in football/soccer, each team earns 1 point. Now there are exceptions, for example if it the final of the World Cup and at the end of regulation there is a tie. They play another extra 30 minutes as tie break. If still there is a tie then the match gets decided by penalty kicks. 

Promotion: There are minor leagues for teams. The Champion of the minor league in their respective country gets promotion.

Relegation, the team who finish in last place gets relegated to an infererior league. But also a couple of teams who had 2 or 3 really bad seasons also get relegated based on average points. I don't know exactly how this thing works in different countries.

The problem with the off side law is the refs bad calls. Sometimes is really hard to get it right because it happens so fast for the naked eye and we're talking a matter of inches, in some cases. In other cases the off side is crystal clear. But the refs were looking elsewhere. We don't have instant replay in football.  There's been a couple of experiments. But nothing is official yet.

Edited July 16, 2017 by Padme

[Zurimor]

2 hours ago, mrandyk said:

Soccer. It's something I've tried to become more familiar with the past few Summers when the only other sport on TV is baseball, mainly tuning in to watch the USMNT in the World, Gold Cups and a few MLS matches, but no matter how much I watch I'm left with unanswered questions because I know zero fans of the sport. So I'm turning to the one forum I belong to that certainly has some Europeans who can enlighten this uninformed American.

Multiple Concurrent Competitions - How do teams prioritize their lineups for these? England is the model I am most familiar with, and it seems at any given time during your EPL schedule you can have Champions/Europa, FA Cup, and EFL Cup games. There is nothing remotely similar to this in American sports. Managers can't use their best players for every match, so which competitions do they hold above the rest of their schedule? Someone please rank the EPL, Champions, Europa, FA Cup, and EFL Cup titles in order of importance. (Also, the EFL Cup seems redundant with the FA Cup already being in place - am I wrong?).

Stoppage Time - What the hell is this? I'm led to believe it is added time to make up for breaks in the action (injury time, time until play resumes after a goal, time wasted when ball goes out, etc.), but it never makes any sense to me. Yesterday during the 2nd half of the US-Nicaragua game two different players were taken off on stretchers, two goals were scored, two (blocked) penalties occurred, and in the end they added 3 minutes. 10 minutes would have made more sense to me if they are actually trying to add all wasted time back. Why doesn't the sport just adopt a stopping clock for the prolonged breaks in action?

Ties - Another thing that basically doesn't exist in America. What's the consensus on these? To compete for 90 minutes and still have the potential to end precisely where we started is maddening to me. Just hold a shootout and name a winner while still giving the shootout loser their point for a draw at full time. That's how the NHL scores their regular season games after eliminating ties about 10 years ago.

Promotion/Relegation - Is it about the best/worst thing ever for a fanbase to be promoted/relegated? Moving up or down, I could see this leading to a completely uninteresting season the following year for the team as they either flounder in the top league or get stuck with a wholly uninspiring league schedule. I wish this was a thing in America. Team owners would actually have incentive to succeed and the Cleveland Browns would permanently reside in an amateur league.

Offside - I understand the rule and its importance to the game, but its enforcement seems so incredibly arbitrary to me. Who cares if the attackers nose was beyond the defender? You don't call the ball out unless it is entirely past the line, why doesn't that apply to offside too? I see great scoring chances waived off for a false offside more often than I'd like. It's like the one rule with no leniency in a game that is so loose in every other regard.

If anyone feels this should be in the existing Soccer thread go ahead and move it. Didn't think I should muck it up with posts on the game itself instead of its current events.

I'll answer only our ties question for now. Keep in mind it's a whole seasonn and you get points for ties and wins, 1 for a tie, 3 for a win.

So at the end of the game you have a tie, you have 2 options now: Either force a decision or say both team were equal, they both deserve to be rewarded. Penalty  would be pretty much luck (at least a lot of luck involved), if you say it's a tie and each team gets 1 point they both at least got something for their effort. I believe a tie is the much fairer option to go with, we Europeans don't understand why you Americans always need to have a winner.

 

Edited July 16, 2017 by Zurimor

[Graeme]

2 hours ago, Padme said:

Relegation, the team who finish in last place gets relegated to an infererior league. But also a couple of teams who had 2 or 3 really bad seasons also get relegated based on average points. I don't know exactly how this thing works in different countries.

I can't speak for anywhere else, but in Scotland we also have Play-Offs.

The team that finishes last in a superior league automatically gets relegated, the team that finished first in an inferior league automatically get promoted, so this is somewhat of a straight swap.

However, the teams that finish second, third and fourth in the inferior league are entered into what are known as the Play-Offs. Fourth plays Third, winner of that match plays Second, winner of that plays the team that came second last from the higher league. So, you could have a situation where the Fourth best team from the lower league are promoted ahead of the two teams that finished above them, if they win all their Play-Off matches.

[Spirit]

6 hours ago, mrandyk said:

Multiple Concurrent Competitions - How do teams prioritize their lineups for these? England is the model I am most familiar with, and it seems at any given time during your EPL schedule you can have Champions/Europa, FA Cup, and EFL Cup games. There is nothing remotely similar to this in American sports. Managers can't use their best players for every match, so which competitions do they hold above the rest of their schedule? Someone please rank the EPL, Champions, Europa, FA Cup, and EFL Cup titles in order of importance. (Also, the EFL Cup seems redundant with the FA Cup already being in place - am I wrong?).

EPL and CL are ranked the highest. What you prioritize depends a bit on the game. CL is played with a group stage in the fall, while the knockout phase starts in the new year. If you haven't played all the games in the group stage but already have qualified to the knockout, you won't need to prioritize the remaining game(s). Although, it generally is a benefit to end up 1st rather than 2nd in your group for seeding purposes. As for EPL, it will be highly prioritized throughout the season, but towards the end, it kinda depends if you still have anything to play for or not.

The FA Cup is highly ranked in England, and comes as a close third behind the two above. It has a strong traditional value.

The Europa league is generally not prioritized over the EPL, but if you end up winning the competition, that's your ticket to the CL next season. You can see, if your team is part of the EL one season, but at the same time is competing in the top 4 of the EPL, the EPL will be more important for the team.

The EFL Cup is definitely ranked at the bottom. The club's a-team is seldom used, at least not for the bigger clubs. The exception is if you have reached the semi-final and is eyeing the chance of winning the competition, then some extra effort is placed.

 

 

The above is an example of the competitions in England, and similar ones are seen in the other countries. Most have only one national cup I think.

Another thing to consider is the country's club performance coefficient in Europe. This is the decisive factor to how many clubs from your nation can enter the Champions League and at which stage.

In England, the top 3 teams of the EPL will qualify directly for the CL group stage, while the 4th team will have to play one qualification match. The same goes for the other big countries like Germany, Italy and Spain. The 5th team qualifies for the Europa League together with the winners of the FA Cup and EFL Cup. If the winners of the national cups are teams who also placed 1-5 in EPL, the 6th and 7th team of the EPL qualifies for the Europa League as well.

For smaller nations, they don't even have one team who will qualify directly to the group stage of the CL, but rather have to go through play-off matches to qualify.

[Spirit]

6 hours ago, mrandyk said:

Stoppage Time - What the hell is this? I'm led to believe it is added time to make up for breaks in the action (injury time, time until play resumes after a goal, time wasted when ball goes out, etc.), but it never makes any sense to me. Yesterday during the 2nd half of the US-Nicaragua game two different players were taken off on stretchers, two goals were scored, two (blocked) penalties occurred, and in the end they added 3 minutes. 10 minutes would have made more sense to me if they are actually trying to add all wasted time back. Why doesn't the sport just adopt a stopping clock for the prolonged breaks in action?

I think FIFA are looking at changing this. There's a suggestion to stop the clock whenever the ball is out of play, and then play 2 x 30mins instead of todays 45mins. I have no idea how likely this is to change.

As for today's system, they add time for injuries and substitutions, that's about it. Generally when the ball is out of play, no time for this is added.

[MillionsOfSpiders]

Stoppage time just isn't the same since Alex Ferguson retired. 

[janrichmond]

12 hours ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

Stoppage time just isn't the same since Alex Ferguson retired. 

I lol'd at that

[BrayWyatt]

22 hours ago, Graeme said:

I can't speak for anywhere else, but in Scotland we also have Play-Offs.

The team that finishes last in a superior league automatically gets relegated, the team that finished first in an inferior league automatically get promoted, so this is somewhat of a straight swap.

However, the teams that finish second, third and fourth in the inferior league are entered into what are known as the Play-Offs. Fourth plays Third, winner of that match plays Second, winner of that plays the team that came second last from the higher league. So, you could have a situation where the Fourth best team from the lower league are promoted ahead of the two teams that finished above them, if they win all their Play-Off matches.

Scottish fitba is a joke and has been for 20 years and im scottish.

[Graeme]

1 hour ago, BrayWyatt said:

Scottish fitba is a joke and has been for 20 years and im scottish.

How is that relevant to the way the play-offs work though?

[SoulMonster]

On 16.7.2017 at 9:59 PM, mrandyk said:

Soccer. It's something I've tried to become more familiar with the past few Summers when the only other sport on TV is baseball, mainly tuning in to watch the USMNT in the World, Gold Cups and a few MLS matches, but no matter how much I watch I'm left with unanswered questions because I know zero fans of the sport. So I'm turning to the one forum I belong to that certainly has some Europeans who can enlighten this uninformed American.

Multiple Concurrent Competitions - How do teams prioritize their lineups for these? England is the model I am most familiar with, and it seems at any given time during your EPL schedule you can have Champions/Europa, FA Cup, and EFL Cup games. There is nothing remotely similar to this in American sports. Managers can't use their best players for every match, so which competitions do they hold above the rest of their schedule? Someone please rank the EPL, Champions, Europa, FA Cup, and EFL Cup titles in order of importance. (Also, the EFL Cup seems redundant with the FA Cup already being in place - am I wrong?).

Stoppage Time - What the hell is this? I'm led to believe it is added time to make up for breaks in the action (injury time, time until play resumes after a goal, time wasted when ball goes out, etc.), but it never makes any sense to me. Yesterday during the 2nd half of the US-Nicaragua game two different players were taken off on stretchers, two goals were scored, two (blocked) penalties occurred, and in the end they added 3 minutes. 10 minutes would have made more sense to me if they are actually trying to add all wasted time back. Why doesn't the sport just adopt a stopping clock for the prolonged breaks in action?

Ties - Another thing that basically doesn't exist in America. What's the consensus on these? To compete for 90 minutes and still have the potential to end precisely where we started is maddening to me. Just hold a shootout and name a winner while still giving the shootout loser their point for a draw at full time. That's how the NHL scores their regular season games after eliminating ties about 10 years ago.

Promotion/Relegation - Is it about the best/worst thing ever for a fanbase to be promoted/relegated? Moving up or down, I could see this leading to a completely uninteresting season the following year for the team as they either flounder in the top league or get stuck with a wholly uninspiring league schedule. I wish this was a thing in America. Team owners would actually have incentive to succeed and the Cleveland Browns would permanently reside in an amateur league.

Offside - I understand the rule and its importance to the game, but its enforcement seems so incredibly arbitrary to me. Who cares if the attackers nose was beyond the defender? You don't call the ball out unless it is entirely past the line, why doesn't that apply to offside too? I see great scoring chances waived off for a false offside more often than I'd like. It's like the one rule with no leniency in a game that is so loose in every other regard.

If anyone feels this should be in the existing Soccer thread go ahead and move it. Didn't think I should muck it up with posts on the game itself instead of its current events.

Multiple Concurrent Competitions: You have the European tournaments (and the position in your national league determines which of these you qualify to play for the next year) and domestic tournaments (series and cups). Usually, it is important to advance far in your domestic series, because then you qualify for playing in European tournaments. Everybody wants to qualify for Champions League, because that's where the glory and money is. Manchester United has won it three times (!), only a few times has bested that. Manchester United is a really great team.

Ties: Ties doesn't matter in league play, but in cups, where a winner need to be determined, then there will be extra time or penalty shootouts. I have never heard someone complain about the concept of ties in league games. Manchester United did poorly in the premiership last season, a lot do with too many ties in home matches, games where they should have won. That's a bitch but it could potentially have been even worse if these tie matches had to be decided by something as arbitrarily as shootouts.

Promotion/relegation: Yeah, these are major things. Promotion, especially to the top tier, means more exposure, sponsor money, possibilities of qualifying for European play, etc. And for fans it usually means you can actually get to see your team on the TV. While relegation means that all this is taken away. Good players will leave the team, sponsor money will disappear, fans will turn their backs. Fortunately, this is all theory for us Manchester United fans. Manchester  United has won the premiership 20 times. Since youo can't be promoted any higher, I reallly think Manchester United should be granted direct access to play in Champions League every year, just because they are so great.

Offside: Manchester United.

[Zurimor]

13 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Promotion/relegation: Yeah, these are major things. Promotion, especially to the top tier, means more exposure, sponsor money, possibilities of qualifying for European play, etc. And for fans it usually means you can actually get to see your team on the TV. While relegation means that all this is taken away. Good players will leave the team, sponsor money will disappear, fans will turn their backs. Fortunately, this is all theory for us Manchester United fans. Manchester  United has won the premiership 20 times. Since youo can't be promoted any higher, I reallly think Manchester United should be granted direct access to play in Champions League every year, just because they are so great.

 

 

Not if you live in Cologne and root for the FC! We had quite some seasons in the second league and the stadium was usually sold out or quite close to it. Made it into EuroLeague this year after a really good season. Europe, we're coming!

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by Zurimor

[KeyserSoze]

I would like to add that since you are an American, MLS works nothing like how european soccer was just described, and you are probably more likely to come across an MLS game on TV then a PL game, unless you have NBC and their affiliates. Its pretty fun to be able to go to MLS games in person and experience soccer in that setting, but again it is NOTHING like European football. 

 

Ill try to explain MLS as best i can given the critieria you've just asked about:

 

Competitions: MLS is a division of CONCACAF. Basically, this is what the EPL is to UEFA. Meaning MLS teams will never qualify to go play UEFA football. That should be apparent.

MLS is split into 2 conferences, like any other North American major league sport.  As far as I can tell, the team with the best record wins the "Supporters' Shield", and the top 6 teams from each conference go to the MLS Cup Playoffs and then from there, the 2 best teams duke it out for the MLS Cup. This is all basically set up the way all other American sports are.

The top 6 teams also qualify for the U.S. Cup which is a competition between MLS, NASL (North American Soccer League), and USL (United Soccer League) teams that qualify. The winner gets a berth to play in the CONCACAF Champions League, which is basically like the aformentioned UEFA Champions League.  AKA, the best teams in North America, Canada and (for some reason) the Caribbean. 

Canadian teams that are apart of MLS do their own thing in the Canadian Championship (because they are special) to win the Voyageurs Cup and a berth to the CONCACAF CL.

The winner of the CONCACAF CL (this isn't necessarily a MLS team all of the time) goes on to play in the FIFA Club World Cup (and no, not the one that brings out fake soccer fans every 4 years) 

 

Stoppage Time and Ties: Both of these have been explained already, and they work just the same in MLS. Extra time will be allotted at the end of each half as needed. The point system works the same as how the EPL has been described; Win: 3 points added to your season tally. Tie: 1. Loss: 0. 

I will add though that your description of Ties is exactly why many American sports offer such instant gratification. I mean look at basketball. Those games get up to 100 points in 3 12-minute quarters sometimes. Even hockey has more shots on goal then most soccer games! Theres nothing like the joy you get when you finally get to see a goal scored after watching so many missed opportunities and counters. If you are truly into it, its an amazing feeling. I just can't even put it into words. 

 

Promotion/Relegation: Heres where things get tricky for MLS: like all North American sports, there is no such thing as promotion/relegation. Funny to think about since thats how the Europeans do it, but no. The 22 current MLS teams, with the addition of 2 brand spankin new teams joining the fold next year, will continue to be MLS teams without the threat of being relegated. 

The US follows a more pyramid-like approach with soccer. MLS is top tier, and then the aforementioned NASL and USL follow under it. in 2018 and 2019, we are expected to start two different third divisions that follow under. Think of all of this like MLB, Triple-A, and Double-A. Except unlike Europe, a Double-A team is never going to get the chance to be on an MLB teams level. You see what i'm saying? 

Under ALLLLLLLL of that, we have amateur clubs that are really of no importance and you wouldn't see on TV. They help high school/college level players hone there skills and get some time on the pitch under their belts. The best example I have of a team like this is my local team, the New Orleans Jesters. They play on a high school sized American football field and probably get around 100-500 fans show up per game, with the record attendance being 3000. Unfortunately, they will never get to be apart of MLS as there is no system of Promotion in play. Its sad because they likely could have gotten to that level this year as they are undefeated!! Anyway, I digress

I hope I explained this well! I think MLS is better if you pick a team and stick to them, like any American sport. And since its a fairly new thing here, no one can give you shit for being a band wagon fan . Just don't go touting that you love MLS around true hardcore soccer fans though because they will probably rip you a new arsehole 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by KeyserSoze

[mrandyk]

Thank you for the responses everyone. I'm watching the US play El Salvador in the Gold Cup quarterfinals and another false offside erased a goal, reminding me that I had posted this lol. I don't quite get why this rule is enforced so strictly when everything else seems so lenient in the game.

You've helped me get a better understanding of how these wildly foreign concepts work. Stoppage time still seems like an inefficient rule though. A stopping clock makes way more sense to me, I hope that FIFA is looking into that.

[Juventino]

The general rule for added time is 30 seconds are added for every goal, substitution and red card. Things are more lax coming into half-time.

Domestic cups these days are down the pecking order for most teams in the top division. If you are playing in the Champions League and fighting for the league too, they are the main priority and when it comes around to a domestic cup game players tend to be rested.

Nothing wrong with a draw. It is a long league season and as they say, every point counts. I remember in 1994-95 in Australia they had shootouts at the end of a league draw and it was bullshit. No need for that gimmicky rubbish in a league season. I understand why there are shootouts in a knockout competition.

[DieselDaisy]

Some of these competitions are completely pointless: UEFA League which was so insignificant it was dumped on Channel 5 for years and usually featured the Liverpool or Newcastle reserves, and, the League Cup which has been through a million different sponsorship names and is completely pointless as it is basically the FA Cup except it removes the greatest aspect of the FA Cup which is that of a non-league team ''giant killing'' and progressing to the third round.

[Juventino]

Yeah I've never understood the need for a league cup in England/France etc, when there's the main cup already.

The Europa League was raped by the expansion of the Champions League, it used to be a fine competition. Along with having the Cup Winners Cup.