Thoughts on Double Talkin Jive

[Free Bird]

5 hours ago, Tom-Ass said:

Over rated my fucking ass  

 

 

Wow Izzy has extremely curly hair here! 

[Free Bird]

8 hours ago, skassi said:

Well I certainly wasn't trying to discredit Slash. He's more than capable of writing wonderful guitar solos and he's been credited with many of them. Simply saying that I THINK Axl is mostly responsible for those two songs in particular because he gave credit where credit was due, for the melodies. All those years of mud slinging, surely we would have heard otherwise. 

Yeah most likely he was mostly responsible for those two songs. Except for the guitar melodies and the solos.

[skassi]

17 minutes ago, Free Bird said:

Yeah most likely he was mostly responsible for those two songs. Except for the guitar melodies and the solos.

You can go with whatever helps you sleep at night. 

[Free Bird]

I choose to go with the logical 

[ToonGuns]

My experience of these types of things having been in many bands over the years is song writing tends to happen organically. Rarely would someone bring a fully completed song in with an exact idea of exactly how each part is played, with note for note sheet music for each member. Usually someone brings a basic idea, chord progression, riff, verse - chorus layout etc which the band would take and expand organically. There might be a vague idea of how the solo should be played, but this would be embellished, adapted, improved based on the organic feedback of the whole band. Songs (verse chorus, lyrics, chords etc) may be written by one person, but the whole finished article, the produced polished finished product, is a band thing.

Edited December 25, 2017 by ToonGuns
correction

[ToonGuns]

On ‎23‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 11:39 AM, Nosaj Thing said:

Liked it in 1991, enjoyed it in 1992 and absolutely loved it in 1993.

Drums are very important for this particular track and Frank ruins it.  Matt was vicious with his drumming, I miss him the most in DTJ.

Totally agree. I said something similar earlier in this topic. Frank can't drum this song for toffee. He hits the right drums in the right order, mostly, but feel, tone, dynamics are shocking.

[EvanG]

15 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Taking your logic to its extremity we may as well conclude Dizzy Reed could have done the guitar solo in 'November Rain'. Taking it to its extremity... - why not? We know nothing after all! Slash is a prolific writer of guitar solos, is credited as 'lead guitarist' in Guns N' Roses, plays Guns N' Roses's solos live, appears to have the same tone as the solos on those Guns records, yet we do not actually know anything! Maybe Elvis or Jesus did those solos? Let's speculate about all sorts of bollocks?

 

12 hours ago, Free Bird said:

It's like Slash telling Axl how to play his piano parts...

What exactly is my logic, Daisy? Because I don't think you understand. The thing is that Daisy and Free Bird don't read properly, so I will quote myself... again

 

On 23-12-2017 at 12:02 PM, EvanG said:

Even more reason for me to think that it was something Axl had in mind and together they worked it out. But again, maybe it was all Slash. How the hell can any of us know?

 

On 23-12-2017 at 11:40 AM, EvanG said:

I'm not saying Axl told him what to play note for note. And maybe you're totally right, unlike most of you guys, I am humble enough to admit that I can't know for sure, seeing as I wasn't there. But why is it so hard for you to admit that maybe Axl had ideas and a vision in his mind for the guitar solos and melodies, and with the help of Slash managed to realize his vision?

 

On 23-12-2017 at 9:40 PM, EvanG said:

Of course Slash is able to come up with his own melodies and solos, he probably does in most songs he plays on, but that doesn't mean that every guitar melody or solo is written by him. As I've said several times, especially with NR and Estranged I can imagine Axl having a hand in them because those two songs were very important to him, and him being the perfectionist and control freak that he probably already was at that time, he even had ideas for all the guitar parts.

As a songwriter, you don't need to be able to play guitar to know how you want a riff or a solo to sound like. Maybe Axl asked Slash to write a really cool guitar part over his chord progression, or maybe Axl sang it to him or played parts of it on the piano, and together they figured it out. Obviously we don't know, but it's silly to assume that Slash does it all just because he's the lead guitarist.

 

On 24-12-2017 at 12:04 PM, EvanG said:

I have never stated that Axl wrote the guitar solos in November Rain

If it's still not clear, then for the last time... I don't think it's impossible to consider that Axl might have had a couple of ideas or a vision on how he wanted the guitar melodies to sound like, especially for the songs November Rain and Estranged. Am I saying that he wrote all the solos? Am I saying Slash had no input? No, yet that is all you two knuckleheads seem to be able to comprehend.

 

19 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

What he means is a complete load of utter bollocks, rather like the Izzy DTJ theory.

Quote

About the DTJ solo, fuck if I know who really played it. I always think it's funny when people here act like they know it all, while in reality most of you don't know shit. There are a couple of reasons why I think it might be Izzy, so I wouldn't be surprised, but there are a couple of other reasons why I think it's Slash, so I really don't know. 

You really should read more carefully... again.

So what exactly is the problem? That I, and several other people, think it might be possible that Axl, the writer of the songs, had some ideas (read: ideas, doesn't mean he wrote all of it) for the guitar parts? But this logic is impossible because Axl isn't the lead guitarist, right? That is your logic. You always know best, you've spent so much of your time on a band's message board that you don't even like anymore, getting into pointless discussions with everyone, because you always know best. Must be exhausting always having to correct everyone. Or you're just trolling... I wouldn't rule that out.

Edited December 25, 2017 by EvanG

[Free Bird]

1 hour ago, EvanG said:

 

What exactly is my logic, Daisy? Because I don't think you understand. The thing is that Daisy and Free Bird don't read properly, so I will quote myself... again

 

 

 

 

If it's still not clear, then for the last time... I don't think it's impossible to consider that Axl might have had a couple of ideas or a vision on how he wanted the guitar melodies to sound like, especially for the songs November Rain and Estranged. Am I saying that he wrote all the solos? Am I saying Slash had no input? No, yet that is all you two knuckleheads seem to be able to comprehend.

 

You really should read more carefully... again.

So what exactly is the problem? That I, and several other people, think it might be possible that Axl, the writer of the songs, had some ideas (read: ideas, doesn't mean he wrote all of it) for the guitar parts? But this logic is impossible because Axl isn't the lead guitarist, right? That is your logic. You always know best, you've spent so much of your time on a band's message board that you don't even like anymore, getting into pointless discussions with everyone, because you always know best. Must be exhausting always having to correct everyone. Or you're just trolling... I wouldn't rule that out.

I answer just because you quoted me.

You are saying we don't read properly because we are stating our opinion and debating about a topic although you has stated that you can't know for sure what happened. 

Still you are doing exactly the same. I've stated more than once that's only my opinion yet you're stating your thoughts and say we don't read properly.

We just disagree, let's agree on that.

Of course Axl could have said to Slash how he likes the solo to sound like. He could have whistle it to him, he could have played it on the piano. 

I just don't think he did. That's all. Pure assuming. No facts. 

After all the interviews I heard and read, all the books I read about this band I believe to know how they worked. I believe every member had his strong points in creating a song and they trusted each other on these points. Of course they had to work some things out but as the piano parts, vocals and vocal melodies were mostly Axl's part the solos and leadguitar melodies were Slash's thing. Like even when Izzy wrote the lyrics Axl would sing them in his way y'know? Slash would do the same with the solos. 

That's my impression. And it fits with Slash's words on the NR solo and it fits with Axl's gratitude for the killer guitar melodies.

Hell now I did the same again... we go round in circles. But again, you say we don't read properly but you do the same.

 

[EvanG]

19 minutes ago, Free Bird said:

although you has stated that you can't know for sure what happened. 

 

Nein, none of us can know for sure, that's why I'm puzzled why you are all so convinced and act like you were there. Especially dreckige Daisy, who I was mainly aiming this to... he is always so arrogant and thinks he knows everything best. I respect anyone's opinion, and if you think this is how it went down, then cool. I even agree that Slash probably contributed a lot to those songs, I mean... those songs are ten minutes long each and there's a lot of guitar stuff going on, so of course he probably contributed a lot. I just think it's silly to assume that Axl had no input at all when it comes down to the guitar parts in songs he actually wrote, because that's usually not how a band works. If you have a lot of band experience, you would know.

Edited December 25, 2017 by EvanG

[Free Bird]

1 hour ago, EvanG said:

Nein, none of us can know for sure, that's why I'm puzzled why you are all so convinced and act like you were there. Especially dreckige Daisy, who I was mainly aiming this to... he is always so arrogant and thinks he knows everything best. I respect anyone's opinion, and if you think this is how it went down, then cool. I even agree that Slash probably contributed a lot to those songs, I mean... those songs are ten minutes long each and there's a lot of guitar stuff going on, so of course he probably contributed a lot. I just think it's silly to assume that Axl had no input at all when it comes down to the guitar parts in songs he actually wrote, because that's usually not how a band works. If you have a lot of band experience, you would know.

I don't act like I was there. If that's what you're gathering from my posts than either my english is too bad and I'm not able to express myself properly or you don't read accurate.. something you blame others for. 

No I don't have any band experiences but I doubt every band works the same way and no offense (I don't know which band you are part of) but a hobby band might work differently than a world class act like GNR, in which every member is more or less equal talented as the other.

[Brownstone drum]

On 23/12/2017 at 3:29 PM, DieselDaisy said:

It is as simple as, Slash is lead guitar who tends to write the lead guitar solos. It consequentially would be the assumption, that he wrote 'Estranged' and 'November Rain's' guitar solos also, and not Rose whose own guitar abilities were limited. 

Has anyone heard the early demo November Rain? Who plays guitar on that?

[EvanG]

38 minutes ago, Free Bird said:

I don't act like I was there. If that's what you're gathering from my posts than either my english is too bad and I'm not able to express myself properly or you don't read accurate.. something you blame others for. 

No I don't have any band experiences but I doubt every band works the same way and no offense (I don't know which band you are part of) but a hobby band might work differently than a world class act like GNR, in which every member is more or less equal talented as the other.

christ, you really are a dummkopf... I'm even agreeing with you in saying that Slash probably did contribute a lot. Why is it so hard for you to understand that perhaps the person who wrote the song might have had some ideas for the guitar parts? Fucking hell... and a merry christmas as well.

[Blackstar]

The NR piano demo version from 1987 might be an indication. The first solo sort of "is" in there, while the second one (which I guess the discussion is about) isn't. Based on that, it's more possible that Slash came up with it. In general, it makes more sense that Slash wrote it.

We don't have a similar demo for Estranged. There I could see Axl telling Slash how he wanted certain guitar parts to sound, for example the "dolphin sounds", but it doesn't mean that he instructed all the guitar melodies and of course the solo.

[Free Bird]

45 minutes ago, EvanG said:

christ, you really are a dummkopf... I'm even agreeing with you in saying that Slash probably did contribute a lot. Why is it so hard for you to understand that perhaps the person who wrote the song might have had some ideas for the guitar parts? Fucking hell... and a merry christmas as well.

 why you're getting so fucking mad? 

Seriously, I'm starting doubt your sanity.

I'll try it once again just for the case you're not trolling but a little bit slow on the uptake. 

Yes, the person who wrote the song could have some ideas for the guitar parts. That is a possibility. We don't know it since nobody of us was there. So, yes. That could be the case.

 

And now my OPINION: I don't think that happened. But that is only my OPINION for said reasons. I don't say that's how it went off. An opinion leaves a latitude for other scenarios. Dou you get it now. YOU MIGHT BE RIGHT, GOOD LORD!

 

[EvanG]

19 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

 (which I guess the discussion is about)

The discussion is more about the fact that these cats have no idea how it works in a band. I have no idea who wrote what.

3 minutes ago, Free Bird said:

I'll try it once again just for the case you're not trolling but a little bit slow on the uptake. 

Yes, the person who wrote the song could have some ideas for the guitar parts. That is a possibility. We don't know it since nobody of us was there. So, yes. That could be the case.

And now my OPINION: I don't think that happened. But that is only my OPINION for said reasons. I don't say that's how it went off. An opinion leaves a latitude for other scenarios. Dou you get it now. YOU MIGHT BE RIGHT, GOOD LORD!

 

I'm slow on the uptake? Whatever that means... You're the one who seems to know exactly how GnR wrote all their songs because you read a few interviews and a book, because that's exactly how it is, right? And then you start talking about hobby bands and world class acts, which has absolutely nothing to do with anything. 

[Free Bird]

16 minutes ago, EvanG said:

The discussion is more about the fact that these cats have no idea how it works in a band. I have no idea who wrote what.

I'm slow on the uptake? Whatever that means... You're the one who seems to know exactly how GnR wrote all their songs because you read a few interviews and a book, because that's exactly how it is, right? And then you start talking about hobby bands and world class acts, which has absolutely nothing to do with anything. 

You are either dull or just a troll. I'm out.

[Brownstone drum]

1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

The NR piano demo version from 1987 might be an indication. The first solo sort of "is" in there, while the second one (which I guess the discussion is about) isn't. Based on that, it's more possible that Slash came up with it. In general, it makes more sense that Slash wrote it.

We don't have a similar demo for Estranged. There I could see Axl telling Slash how he wanted certain guitar parts to sound, for example the "dolphin sounds", but it doesn't mean that he instructed all the guitar melodies and of course the solo.

True, always assumed that was all Axl, I take it the guitar demo came after?

Both great versions of the song

[Blackstar]

1 hour ago, Brownstone drum said:

 I take it the guitar demo came after?

Yeah, I think it's safe to assume that the piano version came first, since Axl wrote that song on piano

[EvanG]

3 hours ago, Free Bird said:

You are either dull or just a troll. I'm out.

No, I'm slow on the uptake, remember? Just like you.

[Free Bird]

Whatever dude

[DieselDaisy]

On 12/25/2017 at 12:14 PM, EvanG said:

You really should read more carefully... again.

So what exactly is the problem? That I, and several other people, think it might be possible that Axl, the writer of the songs, had some ideas (read: ideas, doesn't mean he wrote all of it) for the guitar parts? But this logic is impossible because Axl isn't the lead guitarist, right? That is your logic. You always know best, you've spent so much of your time on a band's message board that you don't even like anymore, getting into pointless discussions with everyone, because you always know best. Must be exhausting always having to correct everyone. Or you're just trolling... I wouldn't rule that out.

You've already denied the guy his solo on Double Talkin' Jive!

My logic is,

- Slash is the lead guitarist of Guns

- Slash is a prolific (and superb) writer of guitar solos, even on other people's work; I think it was Izzy who said, ''Slash loves soloing''.

- Rose has rudimentary guitar skills.

 

[Free Bird]

3 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

You've already denied the guy his solo on Double Talkin' Jive!

My logic is,

- Slash is the lead guitarist of Guns

- Slash is a prolific (and superb) writer of guitar solos, even on other people's work; I think it was Izzy who said, ''Slash loves soloing''.

- Rose has rudimentary guitar skills.

- Rose wasn't even in the studio when Slash recorded his parts

Fixed 

[Blackstar]

4 minutes ago, Free Bird said:

Fixed 

According to Slash, those songs were arranged during the Chicago sessions in the summer of '89, when Axl finally got there.

[Free Bird]

2 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

According to Slash, those songs were arranged during the Chicago sessions in the summer of '89, when Axl finally got there.

I think you're right.

[EvanG]

22 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

You've already denied the guy his solo on Double Talkin' Jive!

My logic is,

- Slash is the lead guitarist of Guns

- Slash is a prolific (and superb) writer of guitar solos, even on other people's work; I think it was Izzy who said, ''Slash loves soloing''.

- Rose has rudimentary guitar skills.

 

This is getting tiring. I still don't know if you're trolling or not. English is your native language, right? @Free Bird is German, so I forgive him for not understanding this, but you should. I've quoted myself several times in saying that I don't know who played the DTJ solo. I've also quoted myself several times in saying that I think Slash probably contributed a lot to those songs, but that I THINK it's quite plausible that Axl had ideas, a vision, had a hand in writing the guitar parts for those particular songs. I'm not a drummer, but I've come up with drum fills. That is often how it goes in a band. You would know if you had band experience. I never stated that he wrote everything. Now, you can have a different opinion, that's fine, but this is the third time now that you're misquoting me. Do you not read properly, or what is it that you don't understand?