Chinese Democracy - The Trilogy (what could have been)

[vloors]

Realistically alot of those leftover cut songs cant hold up on a CD 2 let alone spreading it over a CD 3 also.

[2020_Intensions]

48 minutes ago, vloors said:

Realistically alot of those leftover cut songs cant hold up on a CD 2 let alone spreading it over a CD 3 also.

Finished with vocals? I think most of the Locker leaks are really good and cool stuff. Which ones aren't holding up in your opinion? 

[metalavenger99]

I've always thought that if at one point CD2 or 3 was ever planned to be a weird experimental-electronic kind of thing, it should've been out by 2002 max. I can't imagine an album with PRL, Silkworms, Billionaire and that stuff being critically acclaimed past that date. Let alone a 2010-ish release.

Anyway i would've loved that one as a follow up and then close with the darker epic stuff: SOG The General, As it Began, etc.

[metalavenger99]

9 hours ago, Blackstar said:

the no-show in Philadelphia. 

It's funny and sad at the same time that you can go to the early years section of this forum and read a thread started by someone saying something like: Okay i'm getting ready to go, i'll tell you guys how it was when i get home. 

And of course no replies ever again 

Edited July 30, 2023 by metalavenger99

[vloors]

11 hours ago, 2020_Intensions said:

Finished with vocals? I think most of the Locker leaks are really good and cool stuff. Which ones aren't holding up in your opinion? 

I dont think many of those tracks would have vocals and the ones that did have vocals I only really liked hardschool and state of grace. 

Alot of the music though is outdated sounding like a old disturbed record to me.

[2020_Intensions]

10 hours ago, metalavenger99 said:

I've always thought that if at one point CD2 or 3 was ever planned to be a weird experimental-electronic kind of thing, it should've been out by 2002 max. I can't imagine an album with PRL, Silkworms, Billionaire and that stuff being critically acclaimed past that date. Let alone a 2010-ish release.

Anyway i would've loved that one as a follow up and then close with the darker epic stuff: SOG The General, As it Began, etc.

Yeah, my release scenario would have been 2000, 2002, and then 2004. 

 

1 hour ago, vloors said:

I dont think many of those tracks would have vocals and the ones that did have vocals I only really liked hardschool and state of grace. 

Alot of the music though is outdated sounding like a old disturbed record to me.

This is a speculation scenario ... I'm saying if these songs were finished with vocals you don't think they're holding up? And of course they sound outdated ... They were written over 20 years ago!!! 

[jackparker123]

1 hour ago, 2020_Intensions said:

Yeah, my release scenario would have been 2000, 2002, and then 2004. 

 

This is a speculation scenario ... I'm saying if these songs were finished with vocals you don't think they're holding up? And of course they sound outdated ... They were written over 20 years ago!!! 

2000 / 2002 /2004 like you say.

Axl would have hopefully proved the doubters wrong after completing the Chinese trilogy. Then he could have got back together with Slash in 2005/2006 for the first Axl/Slash GNR record in 15 years, it would have been huge back then.

2016 was at least 10 years too late for the reunion to have any real cultural impact.

[colonizedmind]

That should be the next album title (of the A.I LP) "What Could Of Been"...

[colonizedmind]

On 7/25/2023 at 8:36 PM, 2020_Intensions said:

Just came across a file I haven't looked at in almost 4 years. At the end of 2019 I compiled these playlists from the Village leaks, and fashioned them as track lists for 3 separate albums in the ChiDem trilogy.

I kept the first album similar to the actual album that was released, with more old school GnR style rockers and ballads. Madagascar is such a powerful opening statement, new beginnings kind of song so I went with that as the opener, followed right up with the title track. Riad and Hardschool are up next continuing off of the title track's energy, powerful in your face rockers. Then we go into a stretch of ballads, and just as you're coming off the emotional end of The Blues you get slapped in the face with Axl's opening vocals of Scraped to remind you the ride isn't over yet. Keeping in the spirit of this first album we go into Atlas and Better next, followed up with a more mellow Going Down before we head into our grand finale of TWAT and Prostitute. 

The next album - P.R.L. - This one I envisioned as being the more experimental oriented of the trilogy. Opening with Thyme we find ourselves in this fairyland like atmosphere not really sure where we're heading before everything begins to distort and glitch and before we know it the world we were just in is gone and we're now in P.R.L. Next we have a long 5 song stretch of just in your face powerful rockers. Things get weird with Eye on You and If the World, to then slow down with Nothing and Inside Out, to then get really weird again but this time to the max with Shackler's. We then move in to Oklahaoma and Dummy to finish off. 

The final album - As It Began - For this I was left with A LOT still to work with, and so this became the wrap up album. A combination of everything you've heard so far, rockers, experimental, weird, and all the angriest and violent sounding of them all. We slow down a bit towards the end with Sorry and This I Love, our last ballad of the trilogy, before heading into a stretch of the 3 arguably heaviest hitters in the entire trilogy to close us out on our journey. But the final send off will not be the closing of Soul Monster, but the weird emotional transient experience that is the title track. 

Let me know your thoughts! Next time you get in the mood for some ChiDem and Village stuff, maybe try listening to them following these track lists and see if you can feel what I felt when compiling these.

 

Chinese Democracy

 

Madagascar

Chinese Democracy

Riad

Hardschool

Perhaps

Catcher In The Rye

The Blues

Scraped

Atlas Shrugged

Better

Going Down

TWAT

Prostitute

 

Chinese Democracy Part 2 - P.R.L.

 

Thyme / P.R.L.

Dub Suplex

D Tune

State of Grace

Devious Bastard

Quicksong

Eye On You

If The World

Nothing

Inside Out

Shackler's Revenge

Oklahaoma

Dummy

 

Chinese Democracy Part 3 - As It Began

 

Billionare

Silkworms

Circus Maximus

Real Doll.com

Motormouth

The Rebel

Curly Shuffle

I.R.S.

Mustache

Prom Violence

Oh My God

Sorry

This I Love

Zodiac 13

Tonto

Soul Monster

As It Began

What did PRL stand for again? 

[SlashisGOD]

11 minutes ago, colonizedmind said:

What did PRL stand for again? 

Perception Reality Life I think. 

[Blackstar]

21 minutes ago, colonizedmind said:

What did PRL stand for again? 

We don't know. People have just speculated what it might stand for.

[colonizedmind]

28 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

We don't know. People have just speculated what it might stand for.

Ahhh, I did wonder/forget if we knew or not...do you have a theory?

[2020_Intensions]

1 hour ago, colonizedmind said:

What did PRL stand for again? 

Nobody knows. We only have two known mentions of PRL ... One being the title of a track in Locker leaks ... And the other being a random article in another language where Axl supposedly drops that the follow up to ChiDem will be titled P.R.L.

[Blackstar]

29 minutes ago, colonizedmind said:

Ahhh, I did wonder/forget if we knew or not...do you have a theory?

I don't. I can't think of anything that seems related.

14 minutes ago, 2020_Intensions said:

And the other being a random article in another language where Axl supposedly drops that the follow up to ChiDem will be titled P.R.L.

Here is a translation of that article:

https://www.a-4-d.com/t7429-2001-mm-dd-rs-argentina-axl-rose-fifteen-days-in-the-life

 

 

[colonizedmind]

52 minutes ago, 2020_Intensions said:

Nobody knows. We only have two known mentions of PRL ... One being the title of a track in Locker leaks ... And the other being a random article in another language where Axl supposedly drops that the follow up to ChiDem will be titled P.R.L.

The latter obviously came first then and then the locker leaks came years later and further cemented that it did exist in reality as plan at some point...

Edited July 30, 2023 by colonizedmind

[2020_Intensions]

1 hour ago, colonizedmind said:

The latter obviously came first then and then the locker leaks came years later and further cemented that it did exist in reality as plan at some point...

Right, that article is from 2001 and the Village sessions leaked in 2019, but the material that leaked is what they had and were working on prior to the article, so it was definitely the plan at that point. 2002 seems to be the big year that everything fell apart and Axl apparently went back to the drawing board and six years later we got what we got. 

[colonizedmind]

1 hour ago, 2020_Intensions said:

Right, that article is from 2001 and the Village sessions leaked in 2019, but the material that leaked is what they had and were working on prior to the article, so it was definitely the plan at that point. 2002 seems to be the big year that everything fell apart and Axl apparently went back to the drawing board and six years later we got what we got. 

Agreed.

[RONIN]

I don't think he has any big guns left - we got the best stuff in 2008 if Hard Skool and Absurd are any indication. I also don't think he recorded much vocals (from start to finish anyway). It looks like Axl literally became a man paralyzed with performance anxiety and squandered whatever was left of his vocals during the 90's.

I wish Axl had kept the Rock in Rio 3 lineup and released his Beavan era albums in '99, '01, and '02. No bumblefoot, Ashba, etc to defile those wonderful Axl/Buckethead compositions. Keep the Brian May stuff. Would have preferred no Finck either (Bucket does not need to be trading leads with this guy) but atleast Finck is a decent writer. From a commercial standpoint, that would have been ideal. Every moment onwards from 2002 was a case of diminishing returns and a brand devaluing. As others have stated here, the guy blew it. A terrible work ethic, enormous self doubt, not knowing what he wanted, an obsession with chasing trends (nin, pearl jam/nirvana, nu metal (bleh), trip hop, etc)- and most importantly, no accountability or self awareness. How many times can one person blame the record company, random producer #15, Buckethead, Slash, etc for delays or whenever something goes wrong (which it always does with anything Axl is associated with). At some point, you have to admit you fucked up and Axl was never willing to do that. I wish he would have just chased his muse and made some fun experimental albums with that incredible group of musicians he originally put together. Mid 90's and early 00's Axl was still a potent creative talent.

A chinese democracy box set with demos from each producer on the project that Axl hasn't messed with recently (see shadow of your love) would be a killer offering for the long suffering fans of this band. If he insists on putting Duff and Slash on the tracks, give us the original demos and the new revamped stuff so that fans can have both. But this is all a pipe dream...

[DannyVinyard]

4 hours ago, RONIN said:

I don't think he has any big guns left - we got the best stuff in 2008 if Hard Skool and Absurd are any indication. I also don't think he recorded much vocals (from start to finish anyway). It looks like Axl literally became a man paralyzed with performance anxiety and squandered whatever was left of his vocals during the 90's.

I wish Axl had kept the Rock in Rio 3 lineup and released his Beavan era albums in '99, '01, and '02. No bumblefoot, Ashba, etc to defile those wonderful Axl/Buckethead compositions. Keep the Brian May stuff. Would have preferred no Finck either (Bucket does not need to be trading leads with this guy) but atleast Finck is a decent writer. From a commercial standpoint, that would have been ideal. Every moment onwards from 2002 was a case of diminishing returns and a brand devaluing. As others have stated here, the guy blew it. A terrible work ethic, enormous self doubt, not knowing what he wanted, an obsession with chasing trends (nin, pearl jam/nirvana, nu metal (bleh), trip hop, etc)- and most importantly, no accountability or self awareness. How many times can one person blame the record company, random producer #15, Buckethead, Slash, etc for delays or whenever something goes wrong (which it always does with anything Axl is associated with). At some point, you have to admit you fucked up and Axl was never willing to do that. I wish he would have just chased his muse and made some fun experimental albums with that incredible group of musicians he originally put together. Mid 90's and early 00's Axl was still a potent creative talent.

A chinese democracy box set with demos from each producer on the project that Axl hasn't messed with recently (see shadow of your love) would be a killer offering for the long suffering fans of this band. If he insists on putting Duff and Slash on the tracks, give us the original demos and the new revamped stuff so that fans can have both. But this is all a pipe dream...

Agree with a lot of this, but I didn't notice any performance anxiety in the RIR III show or the show I attended on New Years 2001 going into 2002. Axl was in control with the same kind of stage presence he had in the early 90's. I actually thought he sounded great. It was more of a "clean" sound compared to the "mickey" we have now in the cash grab tour. I do think Axl still has at least one big gun left from the CD era, the General. That may be the biggest gun of them all. I don't know how Axl screwed up so bad with the marketing. It certainly wasn't his first rodeo. I mean, didn't he release a single and video in '91 just prior to the UYI tour, with a date announced for the double album? With his experience, it should have been so easy for him. Release Street of Dreams, Madagascar, There Was a Time, or Better as first single with music video just before the 2002 US tour kicks off, with an announcement date for Chinese Democracy, lets say November 2022, just before holiday season. It would have been perfect. This way, you build up the hype and interest in seeing you and your new Guns N' Roses perform. You let people know, "hey, this isn't just Axl and a cover band. This is Axl and some of the greatest musicians in the world".

 

[RONIN]

2 hours ago, DannyVinyard said:

Agree with a lot of this, but I didn't notice any performance anxiety in the RIR III show or the show I attended on New Years 2001 going into 2002. Axl was in control with the same kind of stage presence he had in the early 90's. I actually thought he sounded great. It was more of a "clean" sound compared to the "mickey" we have now in the cash grab tour. I do think Axl still has at least one big gun left from the CD era, the General. That may be the biggest gun of them all. I don't know how Axl screwed up so bad with the marketing. It certainly wasn't his first rodeo. I mean, didn't he release a single and video in '91 just prior to the UYI tour, with a date announced for the double album? With his experience, it should have been so easy for him. Release Street of Dreams, Madagascar, There Was a Time, or Better as first single with music video just before the 2002 US tour kicks off, with an announcement date for Chinese Democracy, lets say November 2022, just before holiday season. It would have been perfect. This way, you build up the hype and interest in seeing you and your new Guns N' Roses perform. You let people know, "hey, this isn't just Axl and a cover band. This is Axl and some of the greatest musicians in the world".

 

You saw them at RIR 3 and new years '01 (the joint)? If you had seen the House of Blues show (the one before RIR 3) you would have hit the holy trinity of nu guns shows. You're right, Axl from RIR 3 had that old Axl aura about him from the 90's. Iirc, Dave Grohl and the Gallagher brothers were backstage at that show.

I think like some others said here, Axl completely self destructed in 2002. Even his looks had changed from 2001 to 2002. The dreads and jerseys were awful. I think he was so damaged in the 90's from the lawsuits, Duff and Slash leaving, the laughingstock he had become in the industry, his relationships falling apart, etc - that what we saw in 2001 when he re-emerged was a very fragile man. The 2002 mtv vmas probably wrecked his confidence completely. That's when all the Fat Axl stuff started. So his head wasn't even in the game. There's no chance that he was in a headspace to complete a tour, release an album, promote it, etc. But yes, that would have been the best and most ideal time to establish nu guns and his career by releasing the album. I think he would still have been a little late because the opening was there in 1999 to come back strong. Every year he waited, the momentum was slowing. People really started to move on by the end of '02 and his credibility was in tatters. He just blew it. Sometimes I think he should have just disappeared completely after Rock in Rio 3 and HOB 2000 - would have gone out like a legend. Left everyone wanting more and chinese democracy would have stayed a mythic album. I think the way nu guns disintegrated into a band of d-list musicians playing to half empty arenas and fronted by a bloated guy with a hideous wardrobe badly damaged the band's reputation and legacy.

Everything about the 2008 album is a downgrade. The album cover sucks compared to what they were going to do originally. Nearly all of the songs have demos from the Beavan sessions that were way better. For some inexplicable reason he's pasted Bumblefoot and Frank all over the album - d-listers who belong nowhere near Bucket and Brain. More stupid layers. More random effects, choirs, etc. Replacing Brian May's amazing guitar work with Bumblefoot's tasteless shredding. Then the marketing was screwed up in 08 because of Axl being a baby and not playing ball since Azoff and Interscope forced the album out of his hands and forced him to tour in 2010. You see, Axl wasn't ready. He wanted to work some more on the cover art, the liner notes, or whatever other excuse he had. He didn't want to tour Illusions or release that album either - he was forced to do both. He needs a manager that kicks his ass like Azoff and Alan Niven, otherwise nothing ever gets done. That's why he prefers enablers so he can sit on his ass. Now he has Team Brazil, and so nothing ever gets done except pointless touring and cheap merch releases. Even their website is ass compared to Metallica.

Edited July 31, 2023 by RONIN

[Rovim]

23 minutes ago, RONIN said:

You saw them at RIR 3 and new years '01 (the joint)? If you had seen the House of Blues show (the one before RIR 3) you would have hit the holy trinity of nu guns shows. You're right, Axl from RIR 3 had that old Axl aura about him from the 90's. Iirc, Dave Grohl and the Gallagher brothers were backstage at that show.

I think like some others said here, Axl completely self destructed in 2002. Even his looks had changed from 2001 to 2002. The dreads and jerseys were awful. I think he was so damaged in the 90's from the lawsuits, Duff and Slash leaving, the laughingstock he had become in the industry, his relationships falling apart, etc - that what we saw in 2001 when he re-emerged was a very fragile man. The 2002 mtv vmas probably wrecked his confidence completely. That's when all the Fat Axl stuff started. So his head wasn't even in the game. There's no chance that he was in a headspace to complete a tour, release an album, promote it, etc. But yes, that would have been the best and most ideal time to establish nu guns and his career by releasing the album. I think he would still have been a little late because the opening was there in 1999 to come back strong. Every year he waited, the momentum was slowing. People really started to move on by the end of '02 and his credibility was in tatters. He just blew it. Sometimes I think he should have just disappeared completely after Rock in Rio 3 and HOB 2000 - would have gone out like a legend. Left everyone wanting more and chinese democracy would have stayed a mythic album. I think the way nu guns disintegrated into a band of d-list musicians playing to half empty arenas and fronted by a bloated guy with a hideous wardrobe badly damaged the band's reputation and legacy.

Everything about the 2008 album is a downgrade. The album cover sucks compared to what they were going to do originally. Nearly all of the songs have demos from the Beavan sessions that were way better. For some inexplicable reason he's pasted Bumblefoot and Frank all over the album - d-listers who belong nowhere near Bucket and Brain. More stupid layers. More random effects, choirs, etc. Replacing Brian May's amazing guitar work with Bumblefoot's tasteless shredding. Then the marketing was screwed up in 08 because of Axl being a baby and not playing ball since Azoff and Interscope forced the album out of his hands and forced him to tour in 2010. You see, Axl wasn't ready. He wanted to work some more on the cover art, the liner notes, or whatever other excuse he had. He didn't want to tour Illusions or release that album either - he was forced to do both. He needs a manager that kicks his ass like Azoff and Alan Niven, otherwise nothing ever gets done. That's why he prefers enablers so he can sit on his ass. Now he has Team Brazil, and so nothing ever gets done except pointless touring and cheap merch releases. Even their website is ass compared to Metallica.

a lot of your posts can be summed up by this one sentence: "it was all Axl's fault". 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Rovim

[beardedranga]

Does anyone have all of the leaks organised and named etc that they would be willing to share? I have the majority but across multiple devices unnamed with no way of knowing the names 

[body]

17 hours ago, 2020_Intensions said:

Nobody knows. We only have two known mentions of PRL ... One being the title of a track in Locker leaks ... And the other being a random article in another language where Axl supposedly drops that the follow up to ChiDem will be titled P.R.L.

I always thought that the name PRL came from the predecessor of the current name of Poland.  PRL means Polish People's Republic, was communist and Eastern Bloc country in Europe that existed from 1947 to 1989.

[DannyVinyard]

3 hours ago, RONIN said:

You saw them at RIR 3 and new years '01 (the joint)? If you had seen the House of Blues show (the one before RIR 3) you would have hit the holy trinity of nu guns shows. You're right, Axl from RIR 3 had that old Axl aura about him from the 90's. Iirc, Dave Grohl and the Gallagher brothers were backstage at that show.

I think like some others said here, Axl completely self destructed in 2002. Even his looks had changed from 2001 to 2002. The dreads and jerseys were awful. I think he was so damaged in the 90's from the lawsuits, Duff and Slash leaving, the laughingstock he had become in the industry, his relationships falling apart, etc - that what we saw in 2001 when he re-emerged was a very fragile man. The 2002 mtv vmas probably wrecked his confidence completely. That's when all the Fat Axl stuff started. So his head wasn't even in the game. There's no chance that he was in a headspace to complete a tour, release an album, promote it, etc. But yes, that would have been the best and most ideal time to establish nu guns and his career by releasing the album. I think he would still have been a little late because the opening was there in 1999 to come back strong. Every year he waited, the momentum was slowing. People really started to move on by the end of '02 and his credibility was in tatters. He just blew it. Sometimes I think he should have just disappeared completely after Rock in Rio 3 and HOB 2000 - would have gone out like a legend. Left everyone wanting more and chinese democracy would have stayed a mythic album. I think the way nu guns disintegrated into a band of d-list musicians playing to half empty arenas and fronted by a bloated guy with a hideous wardrobe badly damaged the band's reputation and legacy.

Everything about the 2008 album is a downgrade. The album cover sucks compared to what they were going to do originally. Nearly all of the songs have demos from the Beavan sessions that were way better. For some inexplicable reason he's pasted Bumblefoot and Frank all over the album - d-listers who belong nowhere near Bucket and Brain. More stupid layers. More random effects, choirs, etc. Replacing Brian May's amazing guitar work with Bumblefoot's tasteless shredding. Then the marketing was screwed up in 08 because of Axl being a baby and not playing ball since Azoff and Interscope forced the album out of his hands and forced him to tour in 2010. You see, Axl wasn't ready. He wanted to work some more on the cover art, the liner notes, or whatever other excuse he had. He didn't want to tour Illusions or release that album either - he was forced to do both. He needs a manager that kicks his ass like Azoff and Alan Niven, otherwise nothing ever gets done. That's why he prefers enablers so he can sit on his ass. Now he has Team Brazil, and so nothing ever gets done except pointless touring and cheap merch releases. Even their website is ass compared to Metallica.

I wasn't at RIR III, but have watched it on youtube. I saw GNR in person at New Years 01 going into 02, then Tacoma 2002, and Portland 2006. I was right up front at all 3. I agree, the dreads and oversized jerseys were the worst and I did not understand it because his look in 2001 was perfect. His hair was perfect. His style was perfect. His voice was great. He was in perfect shape, despite the idiots that called him fat at RIR III. He was in exemplary shape. There was a lot of criticism on Axl for the 2002 VMA's. I personally thought the performance was fine and much better than the rappers or anybody else that night. I just wish he had followed through on his plans. That band had so much talent and potential, never to be realized.

[meadsoap]

3 hours ago, RONIN said:

. He needs a manager that kicks his ass like Azoff and Alan Niven, otherwise nothing ever gets done. That's why he prefers enablers so he can sit on his ass. Now he has Team Brazil, and so nothing ever gets done except pointless touring and cheap merch releases. 

No he doesn't. Those two people made him miserable, as Axl has reiterated many times by now. They both constantly degraded and insulted him, forced him on tours that destroyed his mental health, Azoff kept trying to push Axl into a reunion he wasn't ready for, released Chinese Democracy when he wasn't ready for it (which Axl would later call the worst year of his life). And every single bit of it was misery for Axl. It's not a mystery for me why Axl wouldn't want to go through all that again.

Like it or not, Axl is doing what makes him happy and is good for his own mental health. After years of abuse from people in the industry who had the exact same viewpoints as you, he probably decided that that's not what he wanted anymore. Axl making life choices you disagree with is not the same as Axl making a mistake. (Like all that BS about clothing you typed up. Axl dressed that way because he wanted to and he liked it, even if it wasn't cool to other people. That's a badass, rock n roll mentality and I'm glad Axl didn't capitulate to idiots who tried to bully him into changing). The only way your post makes sense is if you think everyone's ultimate goal should be maintaining their reputation and making people like them. Not everybody is as shallow as that, though.

You constantly ask for sincerity and authenticity, but get mad at the only person who actually committed to it. It's not Axl's job to exist in a way that's palatable to anybody but himself, and he never tried to. If you don't like it, your following the wrong band.

Edited July 31, 2023 by meadsoap