2 or 3 guitars? (Fortus related)

[SoulMonster]

On 8/8/2023 at 6:55 PM, JAxlMorrison said:

With GNR back to two guitar players since 2016, has it ever been made clear (or what are your thoughts) on why Axl didn’t just go with Fortus and Finck in 2006, or maybe Bumble and Fortus afterwards instead of bringing in Ashba? Richard clearly could’ve handled it. 

Here's my chapter on why they ended up with three guitarists and how they split the parts between them: (55) 25. AUGUST 2004-MAY 2006: FINALIZING CHINESE DEMOCRACY; LAWSUITS; RETURN TO NYC (a-4-d.com)

[Rovim]

4 hours ago, Nice Boy said:

I don’t see why Fortus is regarded as someone who could only fill a rhythm role and not traditional lead. Listening to him duel with Slash, you can hear he matches Slash’s ability pretty easily. It’s just that Slash has that extra presence due to his legacy.
 

Put it this way, Fortus is much more capable of lead soloing than Izzy, great as they both were. 
 

The main thing that gives Fortus the image of being a rhythm rather than lead is not lack of ability, it’s that he is a dude with straight black hair often playing a white hollow bodied guitar and standing to Axl’s right on stage, playing the rhythm part.
 

 

for me, it's not just Slash's iconic status and legacy that makes him different compared to guitar players like Fortus (which I really like) Slash is one of those rare guitar players who has the x factor about them. Richard can't do what Slash does, even if he is technically superior to Slash on the instrument.

[RONIN]

On 8/8/2023 at 10:14 AM, Voodoochild said:

Just speculation, but I don't think Axl considered Richard Fortus as more than a competent hired musician. Yes, he is capable of playing some of the stuff required, but he never had the prestige to be at the spotlight as the main lead in GNR. Maybe because Axl think as him as more generic than the others, from sound down to the looks? 

I'm not saying Richard is this or what, it is just my impression of what Axl did with him all those years. I like to think that Fortus and Robin would kick ass back in 2006, and Fortus and Bumblefoot would sound a lot better than anything with Ashba.

This. Iiirc, Fortus doesn't have a single writing credit on Chinese Democracy which speaks volumes as far as what Axl thinks. Gilby never had a writing credit in GnR either. People put way too much emphasis on technical proficiency. So what if he can play note perfect? What has he written that has stood the test of time? Same goes for Bumblefoot. They can play some great cover tunes though. Bumblefoot did a fine job on Don't Cry.

Buckethead is leagues beyond these guys as is Robin Finck.  Those two are talented artists in their own right (especially Bucket).

Didn't Marc Canter say that this 3 guitarist idea broke Slash's heart and was one of the reasons that drove him to quit? If I recall correctly, Finck briefly left the band in 2000, and then Axl found Buckethead via Brain - then Finck came back and expected the lead guitar spot but Axl was too attached to Buckethead and couldn't choose between them. Fortus was already in the band by that point. So voila, 3 guitarists. And naturally, Axl liked that sound because he's idiosyncratically overindulgent. He overcooks everything. Thankfully, when Slash came back, the 3 guitar idea was jettisoned and GnR went back to basics.

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by RONIN

[Stay.Of.Execution]

10 minutes ago, RONIN said:

Same goes for Bumblefoot. They can play some great cover tunes though. Bumblefoot did a fine job on Don't Cry.

 

To be fair: bumble had some decent solo records. 

 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Stay.Of.Execution

[Blackstar]

14 minutes ago, RONIN said:

Didn't Marc Canter say that this 3 guitarist idea broke Slash's heart and was one of the reasons that drove him to quit? If I recall correctly,

It was Doug Goldstein. Combined with a quote from Slash, it seems it was an idea Axl had in order to find a formula to keep Gilby in the band (as a side or touring guitarist). I'm not sure if it applies to the Zakk Wylde thing, too, since there was no third guitarist present in those rehearsals.

[Voodoochild]

4 hours ago, RONIN said:

If I recall correctly, Finck briefly left the band in 2000, and then Axl found Buckethead via Brain - then Finck came back and expected the lead guitar spot but Axl was too attached to Buckethead and couldn't choose between them. Fortus was already in the band by that point. So voila, 3 guitarists. And naturally, Axl liked that sound because he's idiosyncratically overindulgent. He overcooks everything. Thankfully, when Slash came back, the 3 guitar idea was jettisoned and GnR went back to basics.

 

Fortus joined in 2002. First there was the Bucket/Robin/Paul Tobias trio for the 4 2000/2001 shows, which is actually the main lineup for the CD album. 

Axl was always very attached to Robin's work, as he later was with Bucket's work. He had to call Brian May to replace Robin's work. Which baffles me is how he let Bumblefoot replace both Robin and Bucket in some tracks so quickly - I'm not talking about just solos, but the guitar arrangement in general. 

[Appetitefordiscussion]

 I thought the live show with three guitarist sounded fucking amazing. In hindsight, Fortus probably could’ve played any of those solos bumble or ashba had to play with ease. I think out of any of the Nu-Gnr guitarist, he’s the best fit 

[Blackstar]

1 hour ago, Voodoochild said:

Which baffles me is how he let Bumblefoot replace both Robin and Bucket in some tracks so quickly - I'm not talking about just solos, but the guitar arrangement in general. 

Maybe he wanted to give the tracks a more "hard rock"/gritty edge thinking that the album would get better reception?

[Voodoochild]

11 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Maybe he wanted to give the tracks a more "hard rock"/gritty edge thinking that the album would get better reception?

That was Bumble’s intention for sure. Not sure about what Axl wanted. I mean, nothing wrong with that, but it sounded out of place on top of the original arrangements, which were still there, but buried in the mix. 
 

IMO the right approach is what they did with Slash on Absurd and HS, when Richard also had to re-record his parts to fit better with the new arrangement. 

[rumandraisin]

1 hour ago, Voodoochild said:

That was Bumble’s intention for sure. Not sure about what Axl wanted. I mean, nothing wrong with that, but it sounded out of place on top of the original arrangements, which were still there, but buried in the mix. 
 

IMO the right approach is what they did with Slash on Absurd and HS, when Richard also had to re-record his parts to fit better with the new arrangement. 

There's always been something about Bumble and Frank's contributions that make me think Axl had lessened the incentive to "get in to every note". 

All that fuss about wanting the drum sound from Nirvana's Smells Like on the title track only to have Frank re-did it with a more generic beat and a less defined sound? Letting Bumble add parts from his home studio. The badly mixed Bumble parts in general that are quite jarring in certain songs and sound so separate from the other guitars. 

Maybe he'd lost a bit of the muse by then and was fed up by the project. We'll never know. 

Edited August 12, 2023 by rumandraisin