2 or 3 guitars? (Fortus related)

[JAxlMorrison]

With GNR back to two guitar players since 2016, has it ever been made clear (or what are your thoughts) on why Axl didn’t just go with Fortus and Finck in 2006, or maybe Bumble and Fortus afterwards instead of bringing in Ashba? Richard clearly could’ve handled it. 

[Voodoochild]

Just speculation, but I don't think Axl considered Richard Fortus as more than a competent hired musician. Yes, he is capable of playing some of the stuff required, but he never had the prestige to be at the spotlight as the main lead in GNR. Maybe because Axl think as him as more generic than the others, from sound down to the looks? 

I'm not saying Richard is this or what, it is just my impression of what Axl did with him all those years. I like to think that Fortus and Robin would kick ass back in 2006, and Fortus and Bumblefoot would sound a lot better than anything with Ashba.

[JAxlMorrison]

26 minutes ago, Voodoochild said:

Just speculation, but I don't think Axl considered Richard Fortus as more than a competent hired musician. Yes, he is capable of playing some of the stuff required, but he never had the prestige to be at the spotlight as the main lead in GNR. Maybe because Axl think as him as more generic than the others, from sound down to the looks? 

I'm not saying Richard is this or what, it is just my impression of what Axl did with him all those years. I like to think that Fortus and Robin would kick ass back in 2006, and Fortus and Bumblefoot would sound a lot better than anything with Ashba.

Yeah I mean both times it seemed like bumble and then Ashba kinda leapfrogged Richard in the pecking order. 

[WhazUp]

My guess is perhaps Axl just was really into his "layers" concept and thought that having more guitarists there to do the different things on the newer material and whatnot would add to the sound.  Especially if the rumors are true that he wanted DJ to be a part of the reunion lineup in 2016 I think that is further evidence of him wanting more sound on stage. 

Which I am so glad they went back to a two-guitarist setup to me it just sounds clearer and less like a wall of sound live

That said in retrospect Richard should have taken over as co-lead more when DJ entered the band and DJ more rhythm playing.  DJ seemingly took over for Fink and maybe the guitarists found it easier if Richard stuck to the parts he always did, but Richard would have been much better of a lead player covering Slash's solos

 

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by WhazUp

[jacdaniel]

I think Axl probably wants 3 players and enjoys the layers but Slash likely insisted on only having 2. I don't  think Slash would want to be part of a 3 guitar band... 

It's just so needless. 

[Blackstar]

2 hours ago, Voodoochild said:

Just speculation, but I don't think Axl considered Richard Fortus as more than a competent hired musician. Yes, he is capable of playing some of the stuff required, but he never had the prestige to be at the spotlight as the main lead in GNR. Maybe because Axl think as him as more generic than the others, from sound down to the looks? 

I'm not saying Richard is this or what, it is just my impression of what Axl did with him all those years. I like to think that Fortus and Robin would kick ass back in 2006, and Fortus and Bumblefoot would sound a lot better than anything with Ashba.

Yes, some of Axl's comments suggest that he always saw Richard as the one to have the "Izzy" role (only as a guitar player/performer, obviously, not as a songwriter), and that had to do even with his physical resemblance with Izzy.

The question is why he wanted two guitar players for the "Slash" role. I think that he hadn't planned it that way originally, but when it happened to be able to have both Robin Finck and Buckethead, he liked the idea of having two lead guitarists, one of whom would be a shredder for the "gimmicky" and "impressive" stuff, so he stuck with it after Buckethead left (although the fact that Bumblefoot was brought in at the last minute might mean that Axl had second thoughts).

[DoMw94]

3 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Yes, some of Axl's comments suggest that he always saw Richard as the one to have the "Izzy" role (only as a guitar player/performer, obviously, not as a songwriter), and that had to do even with his physical resemblance with Izzy.

The question is why he wanted two guitar players for the "Slash" role. I think that he hadn't planned it that way originally, but when it happened to be able to have both Robin Finck and Buckethead, he liked the idea of having two lead guitarists, one of whom would be a shredder for the "gimmicky" and "impressive" stuff, so he stuck with it after Buckethead left (although the fact that Bumblefoot was brought in at the last minute might mean that Axl had second thoughts).

Could it be similar to what Alice Cooper has now perhaps? A more traditional lead (Finck/Ashba a la Ryan Roxie) and a shredder/more technical player as well (Buckethead/Bumblefoot a la Nita Strauss). Obviously rhythm is rhythm and takes something of a back seat by its very nature, but lead is a different story, especially with what Axl was trying to do at the time.

I don't know, I'm no musician, but if I had to guess, that'd be it. None of it a slight on Richard from Axl – if anything it solidified his position as the man for that job

[Gunner Gilby]

3 hours ago, JAxlMorrison said:

With GNR back to two guitar players since 2016, has it ever been made clear (or what are your thoughts) on why Axl didn’t just go with Fortus and Finck in 2006, or maybe Bumble and Fortus afterwards instead of bringing in Ashba? Richard clearly could’ve handled it. 

I remember Axl addressed the whole going from two to three guitarists once. He said that if you go and look at the album credits from Appetite - Spaghetti there's always been three guitar tracks. Izzy or Gilby playing rhythm guitar. But Slash would play a lead guitar track and then another rhythm guitar track too. So having three guitarists helped recreate the songs more accurately live. Or something to that effect.

I get the point he was trying to make. But I think when you've got two talented players like Slash n Richard (or Izzy or Gilby) that two guitarists is fine.

[WhazUp]

3 minutes ago, Gunner Gilby said:

I remember Axl addressed the whole going from two to three guitarists once. He said that if you go and look at the album credits from Appetite - Spaghetti there's always been three guitar tracks. Izzy or Gilby playing rhythm guitar. But Slash would play a lead guitar track and then another rhythm guitar track too. So having three guitarists helped recreate the songs more accurately live. Or something to that effect.

I get the point he was trying to make. But I think when you've got two talented players like Slash n Richard (or Izzy or Gilby) that two guitarists is fine.

Yeah, while I get what Axl is saying, most of the time that third track is just whenever the lead guitars come in or does little lead fills, that also means for that third guitarist on stage live that leaves a lot of downtime so they either will double other people's parts or add little tiny things here and there just to have something to do

Which is cool and all, but I think live having one rhythm and one lead part just makes the sound more direct and easily discernable.  I remember when I saw GNR in 2011 and 2012 it was just a wall of guitar sound and you couldn't make out who is doing what - with Slash and Fortus I was able to make them out at all times very clearly

[Free Bird]

Considering how Richard butchers Izzy's parts, like the Nightrain solo, then I guess I understand Axl.

[ChristianGNR]

When Richard joined the band in 2002, I think Axl gave an interview stating that Richard liked to play the Izzy gig.

[DoMw94]

49 minutes ago, ChrisMaciel said:

When Richard joined the band in 2002, I think Axl gave an interview stating that Richard liked to play the Izzy gig.

First I've heard of that, could be wrong though.

From what I heard he was originally approached to replace Robin in '99. And wasn't much of a GN'R fan before joining the band anyway

[The Real McCoy]

1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

Yes, some of Axl's comments suggest that he always saw Richard as the one to have the "Izzy" role (only as a guitar player/performer, obviously, not as a songwriter), and that had to do even with his physical resemblance with Izzy.

The question is why he wanted two guitar players for the "Slash" role. I think that he hadn't planned it that way originally, but when it happened to be able to have both Robin Finck and Buckethead, he liked the idea of having two lead guitarists, one of whom would be a shredder for the "gimmicky" and "impressive" stuff, so he stuck with it after Buckethead left (although the fact that Bumblefoot was brought in at the last minute might mean that Axl had second thoughts).

Fortus was Axl’s initial pick to replace Finck before he found Buckethead.

[lost un the jungle]

2 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Yes, some of Axl's comments suggest that he always saw Richard as the one to have the "Izzy" role (only as a guitar player/performer, obviously, not as a songwriter), and that had to do even with his physical resemblance with Izzy.

The question is why he wanted two guitar players for the "Slash" role. I think that he hadn't planned it that way originally, but when it happened to be able to have both Robin Finck and Buckethead, he liked the idea of having two lead guitarists, one of whom would be a shredder for the "gimmicky" and "impressive" stuff, so he stuck with it after Buckethead left (although the fact that Bumblefoot was brought in at the last minute might mean that Axl had second thoughts).

Yes, but despite Bumble joined in the last call, then he worked on chinese stuff for the final record and got credits if my memory serves. Richard I think does not have any credits on the songs, among all the guitarists he was always for sure the #3

[Blackstar]

1 hour ago, The Real McCoy said:

Fortus was Axl’s initial pick to replace Finck before he found Buckethead.

He was just considered (recommended by Stinson) and was going to audition, but he didn't because Axl had found Buckethead in the meantime.

18 minutes ago, lost un the jungle said:

Yes, but despite Bumble joined in the last call, then he worked on chinese stuff for the final record and got credits if my memory serves. Richard I think does not have any credits on the songs, among all the guitarists he was always for sure the #3

Bumblefoot didn't get any songwriting credits.

[JAxlMorrison]

11 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

He was just considered (recommended by Stinson) and was going to audition, but he didn't because Axl had found Buckethead in the meantime.

Bumblefoot didn't get any songwriting credits.

I think he’s saying Bumble played on ChiDem, a lot. Wasn’t Fortus used minimally, if at all? Sorry if I’m wrong, pretty tired haha. 

[Blackstar]

Just now, JAxlMorrison said:

I think he’s saying Bumble played on ChiDem, a lot. Wasn’t Fortus used minimally, if at all? Sorry if I’m wrong, pretty tired haha. 

Yeah I know, I just addressed the credits part.

I guess the reason for Bumblefoot playing a lot on CD but not Fortus is that for Fortus' main role was the rhythm guitar and that was recorded, whereas Axl wanted to add more lead guitar parts and solos.

 

[lost un the jungle]

17 minutes ago, JAxlMorrison said:

I think he’s saying Bumble played on ChiDem, a lot. Wasn’t Fortus used minimally, if at all? Sorry if I’m wrong, pretty tired haha. 

Yes! I mixed the credits thing, but I meant he played a lot on CD. Anyway, Fortus is the guy who has been milking this cow for over 20 years and he made a career out of touring with GNR, not bad!

[ChristianGNR]

2 hours ago, DoMw94 said:

First I've heard of that, could be wrong though.

From what I heard he was originally approached to replace Robin in '99. And wasn't much of a GN'R fan before joining the band anyway

Didn’t find the full interview, but there’s a bit here:

The talented guitarist Richard Fortus joined Guns N’ Roses early in 2002 after guitarist Paul Tobias left the band. The iconic frontman of the band Axl Rose previously praised Fortus’ work by stating:

“He’s an amazing lead player and very technically skilled. He really likes the pocket that Brain sets and the two of them click with Tommy so we finally have the real deal rhythm section, as Richard is a proven professional. Basically, Richard’s the guy that we always were looking for.”

[DoMw94]

6 minutes ago, ChrisMaciel said:

Didn’t find the full interview, but there’s a bit here:

The talented guitarist Richard Fortus joined Guns N’ Roses early in 2002 after guitarist Paul Tobias left the band. The iconic frontman of the band Axl Rose previously praised Fortus’ work by stating:

“He’s an amazing lead player and very technically skilled. He really likes the pocket that Brain sets and the two of them click with Tommy so we finally have the real deal rhythm section, as Richard is a proven professional. Basically, Richard’s the guy that we always were looking for.”

Ah I'm familiar with the quote, but I'd never though of it meaning he was happy in that rhythm role.

But you're totally right by the looks of it, fair play

Edited August 9, 2023 by DoMw94

[Blackstar]

There are a lot of quotes from and about Fortus joining GN'R here, including the one where Axl said Richard liked to play rhythm:

https://www.a-4-d.com/t5364-23-january-2001-november-2002-richard-replaces-paul-touring-starts#21429

[DoMw94]

1 hour ago, lost un the jungle said:

Richard I think does not have any credits on the songs, among all the guitarists he was always for sure the #3

Do you mean writing credits? Because I'm sure he played on a chunk of the album

[Graeme]

I don't think Slash would share lead guitar duties, so there wasn't room for the 'virtuoso' role when he returned to the band (before angry Slash fans come in to say that Slash is inarguably the best guitarist to have ever played in Guns N' Roses, he's a great blues rock guitarist, a very gifted composer and probably the most perfect fit for the band, but both Buckethead and Ron are more technically proficient on the instrument). It's a shame from my point of view, I found three-guitar Guns N' Roses much more interesting.

[DoMw94]

1 hour ago, Graeme said:

I don't think Slash would share lead guitar duties, so there wasn't room for the 'virtuoso' role when he returned to the band (before angry Slash fans come in to say that Slash is inarguably the best guitarist to have ever played in Guns N' Roses, he's a great blues rock guitarist, a very gifted composer and probably the most perfect fit for the band, but both Buckethead and Ron are more technically proficient on the instrument). It's a shame from my point of view, I found three-guitar Guns N' Roses much more interesting.

I dunno, I imagine he would in the right circumstances. I mean, he's a big Aerosmith fan, and there are times that Brad takes the lead while Joe takes a back seat.

I don't think it's out of the realms of possibility that the same could happen here on occasion. We sort of see it with Chinese Democracy at Madagascar already, although they're not exactly straightforward songs to compare to

[Nice Boy]

I don’t see why Fortus is regarded as someone who could only fill a rhythm role and not traditional lead. Listening to him duel with Slash, you can hear he matches Slash’s ability pretty easily. It’s just that Slash has that extra presence due to his legacy.
 

Put it this way, Fortus is much more capable of lead soloing than Izzy, great as they both were. 
 

The main thing that gives Fortus the image of being a rhythm rather than lead is not lack of ability, it’s that he is a dude with straight black hair often playing a white hollow bodied guitar and standing to Axl’s right on stage, playing the rhythm part.