STEVEN ADLER: "Izzy is just as heartbroken as I am that the three of them decided to leave us out and bring three strangers in–who are those people?"

[SoulMonster]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

It was because of drug addiction.

Haha  

Duff: It sounded ironic to a lot of people for us to kick someone out of such a notoriously debauched band for drugs. The truth is we didn't care what drugs people did or how much they did. We cared only about our work and our ability to keep the band moving forward now that we finally had songs to record and shows to play. We didn't give a shit about cause, just effect. Drugs? Sure. But it could just as easily have been something else. Lack of motivation. Jail time. Death. For me, I always thought death and death alone could ever push me across that line when it came to this band. (I was wrong.) For Steven, coke and heroin proved enough to nudge him across [Duff's autobiography, "It's So Easy", 2011, p. 172].

DieselDaisy: It was because he was an addict!

[SoulMonster]

Duff: The first thing we wanted was a fluid drum take. Bass and drums always got done quickly in the early days. I hardly ever had to do bass fixes because Steven and I were so solid as a rhythm section. But when we had tried to lay down the basic tracks for 'Civil War,' producer Mike Clink and I had to patch together the drum tracks from dozens of inadequate takes-by hand, as this was before editing made that sort of thing much easier [Duff's autobiography, "It's So Easy", 2011, p. 163].

DieselDaisy: It was because he was an addict!! I refuse to accept that Steven's addiction interfered with his ability to play drugs, because then I can't whine about Slash being a hypocrite anymore and it ruins what I prefer to believe rather than what is factual! So I will just keep repeating that he was fired due to his addiction and close my eyes to everything else!!

[DieselDaisy]

3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Haha  

Duff: It sounded ironic to a lot of people for us to kick someone out of such a notoriously debauched band for drugs. The truth is we didn't care what drugs people did or how much they did. We cared only about our work and our ability to keep the band moving forward now that we finally had songs to record and shows to play. We didn't give a shit about cause, just effect. Drugs? Sure. But it could just as easily have been something else. Lack of motivation. Jail time. Death. For me, I always thought death and death alone could ever push me across that line when it came to this band. (I was wrong.) For Steven, coke and heroin proved enough to nudge him across [Duff's autobiography, "It's So Easy", 2011, p. 172].

DieselDaisy: It was because he was an addict!

Your argument is rather like blaming a drink-driver who mows down some child on the ''drink-driver's poor driving skills'', whilst leaving out the demonstrable fact he was three times over the alcohol limit. 

A typical Soul Monsterean exercise in semantics. 

Edited April 16, 2018 by DieselDaisy

[Padme]

2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Err, because he "was beginning to get erratic. His participation in rehearsals and writing and recording sessions became less frequent, and his ability to perform suffered big-time". Guns N' Roses never worried about addiction as long as it didn't interfere with the music. Izzy's heroin addiction was tolerated from the get-go, they probably thought it was kinda cool. As was Slash and Steven's when they started. Drugs? No problem, just don't let it hurt the band. Only when it resulted in not being able to work, did the other guys react. That's what motivated Axl to do his "dancing with Mr. Brownstone" speech in '89 because Slash, Steven and Izzy was not functioning well anymore. And that's why Steve was fired: He was not a functioning addict anymore, he lost control.

Then we can add additional plausible reasons why they wanted him out, like him being an annoying manchild with a limited repertoire. But the primary reason was likely that he couldn't do his work anymore. It couldn't possible have been simply because he was an addict.

Have you?

Of course! Don't be a smart ass. You clearly know story. Steven didn't take his case to court because Axl, Slash, Duff and Izzy thought he was an inmmature and annoying kid

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

Your argument is rather like blaming a drink-driver who mows down some child on the drink-driver's poor driving skills, whilst leaving out the demonstrable fact he was three times over the alcohol limit. 

Fact is Guns N' Roses had zero problems with band members being addicted, as long as they could do their job. Case in point: Izzy, Slash, Steven (up to the point when he couldn't do his job any more), and Duff. It is amusingly bizarre that someone who claims to be a fan of Guns N' Roses and knows the band's story, would think they would ever fire someone for just being an addict  That's like failing on GN'R History 101.

[Padme]

15 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Fact is Guns N' Roses had zero problems with band members being addicted, as long as they could do their job. Case in point: Izzy, Slash, Steven (up to the point when he couldn't do his job any more), and Duff. It is amusingly bizarre that someone who claims to be a fan of Guns N' Roses and knows the band's story, would think they would ever fire someone for just being an addict  That's like failing on GN'R History 101.

Well that's what they said in books and interviews. Probably there were other reasons. But if that was the case they never explained those reasons.

[DieselDaisy]

20 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Fact is Guns N' Roses had zero problems with band members being addicted, as long as they could do their job. Case in point: Izzy, Slash, Steven (up to the point when he couldn't do his job any more), and Duff. It is amusingly bizarre that someone who claims to be a fan of Guns N' Roses and knows the band's story, would think they would ever fire someone for just being an addict  That's like failing on GN'R History 101.

Adler's problems discussed emanate from Adler's drug addiction. 

[EvanG]

Circa 1990, Slash, Duff and Steven are alcohol and drug addicts. Difference between Steven and the other two guys is that they could still play their instrument no matter how fucked up they were, and Steven couldn't... he would pass out behind his drums, couldn't get the parts right, etc. They gave him a lot of chances but he couldn't get his act together so they fired him. If he could have still played his instrument while having an alcohol and drug problem, they wouldn't have fired him, because Duff and Slash were in the same boat. So was he fired because of his addictions? No. The ignorance on this forum is sometimes appalling... or are people just trolling because there's nothing else to talk about concerning GnR?

[Slosh13]

Adler: "I love those songs, I love those records. I practice them here at home every day because I love them and I’m so proud of them and I’m proud of what the five of us did–we accomplished our dream exactly the way we wanted to. It didn’t end the way we wanted, or I wanted, but we did it our way. Like Frank Sinatra said, ‘I did it my way.”

 

It seems to me that the band don't want him around.

I like Steven, but sometimes I feel that he's living in another world and doesn't quite get it. 

 

 

[Fashionista]

One day in 1990, Axl, Slash, Duff, and Izzy all woke up one morning and decided to fire Steven for being a drug addict. Steven was in perfect condition to record thirty songs and tour for two years. They just fired him to feel better about being drug addicts themselves. It's not like they had tried to help him for half a year or like his drug addiction was effecting his ability to record. He was just an innocent victim of Axl, Slash, Duff and Izzy's machinations. The fact that he was still using massive amounts of drugs and humiliating himself twenty years later is just pure coincidence and is only the fault of Axl, Slash, Duff, and Izzy. Steven has no fault in the matter.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Fashionista

[DieselDaisy]

Adler couldn't play his instrument in 1990 yet played two songs at Farm Aid fine, at the exact time he was supposedly having these tracks for Civil War edited together in the studio! 

[EvanG]

I'm sure he had days when he wasn't loaded 24/7 and he wouldn't pass out.

Jeez, why is this so hard to understand?

[Tonto]

8 hours ago, Gnrcane said:

Exactly.  This is a band that has NEVER done things for the fans.  They basically "wrote what they wanted" and "played what they wanted."  Their biggest tour prior to NITL featured the lead singer telling the fans to go f*** themselves on a nightly basis by showing up late for no reason. 

They shouldn't have "wrote what they wanted?" What should they have written? What you wanted? That would be good.

[DieselDaisy]

10 minutes ago, EvanG said:

I'm sure he had days when he wasn't loaded 24/7 and he wouldn't pass out.

Jeez, why is this so hard to understand?

I just do not believe it; I do not believe a lot about the Adler sacking. I remember Niven saying Adler being sacked for drugs was a load of bollocks.

Further on this, we are led to believe that Adler was so messed up that he was incapable of playing one complete drum track for ''Civil War'', and that Clink had to splice a complete master together from hundreds of incomplete takes, yet during the exact period this happened Adler played two songs including aforementioned in front of 60,000 fans (millions televised) and played those songs perfectly?

Complete load of bollocks.

Edited April 16, 2018 by DieselDaisy
Addendum

[EvanG]

14 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I just do not believe it; I do not believe a lot about the Adler sacking. I remember Niven saying Adler being sacked for drugs was a load of bollocks.

Exactly, because he was sacked for not doing his job properly, and yes that was because of the drugs, but if he could have done his job properly with the drugs, like the other two junkies in the band, he wouldn't have been sacked. It wouldn't make sense. At the end of the day none of us were there, but from everything I read and looking at it from a logical perspective, this is what makes sense. Why would he be kicked out if he was doing his job properly? Because he was still holding on to that terrible 80s haircut by 1990?

34 minutes ago, Fashionista said:

One day in 1990, Axl, Slash, Duff, and Izzy all woke up one morning and decided to fire Steven for being a drug addict. Steven was in perfect condition to record thirty songs and tour for two years. They just fired him to feel better about being drug addicts themselves. It's not like they had tried to help him for half a year or like his drug addiction was effecting his ability to record. He was just an innocent victim of Axl, Slash, Duff and Izzy's machinations. The fact that he was still using massive amounts of drugs and humiliating himself twenty years later is just pure coincidence and is only the fault of Axl, Slash, Duff, and Izzy. Steven has no fault in the matter.

There's a story of Duff going to Steven's dealer with a gun to get him to stop supplying him drugs, and there are many more stories how they tried to help him and take care of him.

How does that add up to all of that?

Or is all of that a load of crap because it might favour the other guys and not Steven, because obviously the other guys are the meanies here, right? Bad, bad boys.

Edited April 16, 2018 by EvanG

[DieselDaisy]

Slash was so strung out on junk he clinically died on numerous occasions, once having to be resuscitated by Rose's big security chap. Was Duffy threatening Slosh's drug suppliers? Maybe Slash himself should have threatened the owner of Duff's booze shop with a sawn-off? 

It is all complete nonsense of course, the sort of drivel ''rock stars'' sprout. The reality is that Rose wanted rid of Adler because he talked back to Rose, and seemed to believe some ''incident'' involving Erin (which was also probably nonsense). The other two, scared of upsetting Rose, went along with it.  

 

[EvanG]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

Was Duffy threatening Slosh's drug suppliers? Maybe Slash himself should have threatened the owner of Duff's booze shop with a sawn-off?

I don't know, again, I wasn't there. But by 1990 Duff and Slash could still play their guitars and Steven was more fucked up so they tried to help him.

 

4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

and seemed to believe some ''incident'' involving Erin (which was also probably nonsense).

I don't see why that speedball story would be untrue and I don't see what that has to do with this anyway. Or was that part of many reasons why Rose wanted to get rid of Steven? So all those stories about the other guys trying to get Steven to clean up, or at least being able to get the job done, are fabricated? Because if they are true, it doesn't rhyme with them sacking him anyway, regardless of his drug problem.

[WhazUp]

35 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I just do not believe it; I do not believe a lot about the Adler sacking. I remember Niven saying Adler being sacked for drugs was a load of bollocks.

Further on this, we are led to believe that Adler was so messed up that he was incapable of playing one complete drum track for ''Civil War'', and that Clink had to splice a complete master together from hundreds of incomplete takes, yet during the exact period this happened Adler played two songs including aforementioned in front of 60,000 fans (millions televised) and played those songs perfectly?

Complete load of bollocks.

Implying that the capabilities of someone into habitual heavy drug use is 100 percent consistent from one day to the next?  

Edited April 16, 2018 by WhazUp

[RONIN]

2 hours ago, EvanG said:

Circa 1990, Slash, Duff and Steven are alcohol and drug addicts. Difference between Steven and the other two guys is that they could still play their instrument no matter how fucked up they were, and Steven couldn't... he would pass out behind his drums, couldn't get the parts right, etc. They gave him a lot of chances but he couldn't get his act together so they fired him. If he could have still played his instrument while having an alcohol and drug problem, they wouldn't have fired him, because Duff and Slash were in the same boat. So was he fired because of his addictions? No. The ignorance on this forum is sometimes appalling... or are people just trolling because there's nothing else to talk about concerning GnR?

I think it goes even beyond him being able to play his material....

Three major reasons he was ousted imho:

1. Could not wrap his head around Axl's vision for Illusions as per Alan Niven. His skill level wasn't there for this type of thing and the band knew it. They (Axl) had outgrown him musically. Steven would have been bounced out even if he was the most sober member in the band. He could have played his heart out in the studio and it still wouldn't have changed the inevitable. His playing ability was becoming a hindrance for the band's future direction (a direction that Slash, Izzy, Duff and Alan Niven were all extremely conflicted about). This would probably not have happened if the next album was AFD 2. History would repeat itself in the mid 90's when Axl would shift the direction of the band again and suddenly Slash finds himself in the same situation as Steven - being forced to play shit he doesn't relate to at all.

2. Band politics and Money. It was a win/win situation to oust him. He was the least important person in the group on paper. Getting Steven out of the partnership agreement = more money for the partners. Axl/Doug Goldstein saw an opening and extended the rope that Duff/Slash used to hang Steven. If they fought so hard to keep him in the band as we are led to believe - why not keep Steven on standby and bring in a session drummer to play the album and tour until Steven was healthy? Surely a massive financial juggernaut like GnR could afford to do that. It probably would have been cheaper than Axl's St. Louis meltdown. Steven getting kicked out of the partnership sets up an important legal precedent that a partner leaving the band has to be bought out (and ostensibly can't passively retain their share in the brand). This would come into play the following year with Izzy's departure. Would Izzy have elected to remain as a passive partner if he was given the option to? Who knows...

Quote

The writing was on the wall, and things quickly came to a head. Axl's patience as far as Steve went was long gone, so we had the inevitable get-together to discuss the situation; with Alan [Niven]'s support, Axl insisted that we give Steven a written ultimatum. It was a contract that Steve was forced to sign, that at best we hoped would scare him sober and at worst would orchestrate his departure from the band. The paperwork was clear; it said that if Steven showed up high to recording sessions, he'd be fined. If he did it three times, he'd be fired, or something along those lines. Steven signed it, he agreed to all of the terms, and like anyone caught in the throes of smack, he ignored all the promises he made and continued the way he had been [Slash, autobiography, 2007]

3. Adler was the odd man out of the group socially - and that's probably what tipped the scales towards his removal. While Axl and Izzy were off in their own worlds, Slash and Duff were freezing him out of the creative process for Illusions in the studio. His drug induced stupor probably has a role to play in this (as well as Duff/Slash being douches to him). Whatever the case, the personal relationships between Steven and Duff/Slash were rocky.  The Erin Everly speedball incident probably just sealed the deal.

Fastforward to the reunion and Steven (allegedly) is offered a chance to play AFD and some of the Illusion material for the duration of the tour - he gets injured and recovers weeks before the Troubador show but all of a sudden the offer is abruptly rescinded with no explanation. Telltale signs of the redhead at work.

So, boiling it all down in the end - if you look at the root cause for why Steven was kicked out of the band and isn't participating in the reunion - it's Axl Rose.   

P.S. This quote makes me wonder if they toyed with keeping Steven on standby...

Quote

 [Steven] is back in the band. He was definitely out of the band. He wasn’t necessarily fired, we worked with Adam Maples, we worked with Martin Chambers, and Steven did the Guns N’ Roses thing and got his shit together. And it worked, and he did it, and he plays the songs better than any of ‘em, just bad-assed, and he’s GNR. And so if he doesn’t blow it, we’re going to try the album with him, and the tour and, you know, we’ve worked out a contract with him....(...) it’s worked out. It’s finally back on and we’re hoping it continues. It’s only been a few days so far. It’s only been since Thursday last week, and he’s doing great. We’re all just hoping it continues. [Axl, Stick To Your Guns by Mick Wall; Kerrang, 21st and 28th of April 1990]

 

Edited April 16, 2018 by RONIN

[Fashionista]

53 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Adler couldn't play his instrument in 1990 yet played two songs at Farm Aid fine, at the exact time he was supposedly having these tracks for Civil War edited together in the studio! 

Wherein Duff has to go over to the drum riser multiple times to keep Steven on tempo.

[Fashionista]

8 minutes ago, RONIN said:

I think it goes even beyond him being able to play his material....

Three major reasons he was ousted imho:

1. Could not wrap his head around Axl's vision for Illusions as per Alan Niven. His skill level wasn't there for this type of thing and the band knew it. They (Axl) had outgrown him musically. Steven would have been bounced out even if he was the most sober member in the band. He could have played his heart out in the studio and it still wouldn't have changed the inevitable. His playing ability was becoming a hindrance for the band's future direction (a direction that Slash, Izzy, Duff and Alan Niven were all extremely conflicted about). This would probably not have happened if the next album was AFD 2. History would repeat itself in the late 90's when Axl would shift the direction of the band again and suddenly Slash finds himself in the same situation as Steven - being forced to play shit he doesn't relate to at all.

2. Band politics and Money. It was a win/win situation to oust him. He was the least important person in the group on paper. Getting Steven out of the partnership agreement = more money for the partners. Axl/Doug Goldstein saw an opening and extended the rope that Duff/Slash used to hang Steven. If they fought so hard to keep him in the band as we are led to believe - why not keep Steven on standby and bring in a session drummer to play the album and tour until Steven was healthy? Surely a massive financial juggernaut like GnR could afford to do that. It probably would have been cheaper than Axl's St. Louis meltdown. There's a quote from Axl where he's even toying with an idea like that early on but it's never addressed again. Steven getting kicked out of the partnership sets up an important legal precedent that a partner leaving the band has to be bought out (and ostensibly can't passively retain their share in the brand). This would come into play the following year with Izzy's departure. Would Izzy have elected to remain as a passive partner if he was given the option to? Who knows...

3. Adler was the odd man out of the group socially - and that's probably what tipped the scales towards his removal. While Axl and Izzy were off in their own worlds, Slash and Duff were freezing him out of the creative process for Illusions in the studio. His drug induced stupor probably has a role to play in this (as well as Duff/Slash being douches to him). Whatever the case, the personal relationships between Steven and Duff/Slash were rocky.  The Erin Everly speedball incident probably just sealed the deal.

Fastforward to the reunion and Steven (allegedly) is offered a chance to play AFD and some of the Illusion material for the duration of the tour - he gets injured and recovers weeks before the Troubador show but all of a sudden the offer is abruptly rescinded with no explanation. Telltale signs of the redhead at work.

So, boiling it all down in the end - if you look at the root cause for why Steven was kicked out of the band and isn't participating in the reunion - it's Axl Rose.   

Niven has said Slash and Duff were very tired of having to baby him, basically, as far as the freezing him out goes. 

I really don't think this was some conspiracy to remove a band member just to be mean to ol' Stevie. 

[Nosaj Thing]

I agree with Steven, he should be up there with Izzy instead of godawful drummer Ferrer and session guitar player Fortus, but this band is so fucking dead that at this point I couldn't care less.  I would be like "hell yes!" if they replaced the unknown replacements, but after 5 minutes I'll forget about it, move on and ignore everything related to Guns N' Roses.

I'm more excited for the Conspirators III album.  New music all the way!  Nostalgia is cool, once, maybe twice, but after that it gets really boring.

[RONIN]

6 minutes ago, Fashionista said:

Niven has said Slash and Duff were very tired of having to baby him, basically, as far as the freezing him out goes. 

I really don't think this was some conspiracy to remove a band member just to be mean to ol' Stevie. 

I don't think it was a conspiracy either.

As I said, it probably was ultimately his inability to adjust to UYI that got him marginalized in the band. Band politics, money, and Steven not being on good terms with anyone other than Izzy got him fired.

[Fashionista]

2 minutes ago, RONIN said:

I don't think it was a conspiracy either.

As I said, it probably was ultimately his inability to adjust to UYI that got him marginalized in the band. Band politics, money, and Steven not being on good terms with anyone other than Izzy got him fired.

And Izzy at the same time freezing his own self out, so even if Izzy said "no" he didn't have much clout at that point.

[RONIN]

4 minutes ago, Fashionista said:

And Izzy at the same time freezing his own self out, so even if Izzy said "no" he didn't have much clout at that point.

Pretty much.

At this time I had nearly managed to get clean up, from everything. When I was looking at the band, I would see Stevie, who was a good guy, who's been struggling with us during all these years, but couldn't handle it anymore. He was a real millstone, he needed to clean up! Fuck... We all tried to help him, to support him. But no, finally, we'd been on the road with this guy for years and we lived this dilemma: "OK. We leave him six months doing nothing without any guarantee it gets better, or we forget about the double album and we burry the band?" Actually, the industry's machine woke up and the answer was: "We take someone else to cut these records." It's wasn't an easy decision. [Izzy, Rock & Folk, September 1992]

"I took it pretty hard when Stevie was out of the band. It was pretty upsetting, cos I was watching Stevie trying to get himself together after pulling myself together, and it was kinda hard seeing somebody trying when they're not really ready for it. I actually spoke to Steve probably a month ago - against the advice of the attorneys - all that fucking bullshit. That part of the business, that part of the band, is such a load of shit - it seems it fucks up so many good things. But I talked to Stevie, I'd heard he wasn't doing so well, and it was a trip talking to the guy cos I hadn't talked to him for what must've been a year.

He was a good natured guy; I hope he can get it together. He was never malicious, he never tried to fuck people around, he was just happy playing his drums. In some ways he's a little naive, I guess. I just tried to offer a little support, y'know? I just talked to him for a little bit. He was a good drummer. He wasn't virtuoso, a Neil Peart from Rush or something, but he's a fucking damn good rock drummer, he's a good guy, and he was funnier than shit on the road. I was always laughing when I was hanging out with Stevie. " [Izzy, Kerrang September '92]