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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, zigzagbigbag said:
16 minutes ago, zigzagbigbag said:

No offense, but you are some damn wrong if you truly believe that NITL tour is such an success because of AFD alone. Or in other words: You don’t think NITL tour would be that successful as it is even if there were no UYI albums?!

I cannot remember a tour like NITL GNR did in between 87 and 91, can you? 

Apart from this, it seems you didn’t read my post. I did not say that GNR didn’t reach legend status because of AFD alone. Maybe they  would be considered as legends from todays point of view even if AFD would have been their one and only album. Who knows. 

What I did say is, that UYI gave them the legend status they still do profit from to date. In other words: If there would have not been the mainstrem hype during 91-94 there wouldn’t be packed stadiums for nearly four years now

 

Im not talking about NITL tour at all... You used the word "legend", and that's what I was referring to... I wasn't talking about popularity (although sales levels of AfD and UYI seems to contradict your pov)... And there's no maybe in wheter they'd be a legends if they released only AFD... Its a fact. 

Edited by acor
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24 minutes ago, zigzagbigbag said:

No misunderstanding: AFD was huge and known to every rock fan, maybe even to every open minded music fan. No doubt about it. 

But the massive international/worldwide hype when GNR became the biggest band on the planet was the UYI era. You cannot deny this. 

During the AFD/Lies era there were no pay worldwide live streams of a stadium show direct from Paris, there was no airplay in pop radio, their was no coverage in yellow press magazines, there was not every single kid at school wearing GNR shirts from 10 years onwards, my mom did not know who Slash was, there was no signature outfit of Axl Rose nearly each human being in the western/eastern world between 10 and  65 could describe, there was no GNR bedlinen, their were no new GNR special magazines at your local kiosk each month, there was no Axl Rose hitting the stage several times during the Freddie Mercury Tribute show, there was no November Rain video all the fashion girls talked about because Stephanie Seymour was in, there was no multiple sharing the stage with Elton John, there was no Arnold Schwarzenegger blockbuster feature, there were no sold out shows at Wembley fuckin’ stadium etc.

During AFD/Lies era GNR were one very known and good rock band which was praised within the rock music scene. This is for sure. But the time when you had no chance to escape from GNR and everybody worldwide learned about them was from 91-94. 

Same goes for Metallica (on a slightly different level). Of course Kill, Ride, Master and Justice are classic albums everyone interested in hard rock music knew. But Metallica finally became world famous to „everyone“ with the black album. 

Finally, my definition of the average joe is my boss for example. She is 45 years old and went to the NITL tour with her husband and friends because „Slish (sic) is back“ and „I liked Knock, knock on heavens door and November Rain so much when I was young“. You’re nothing but wasting time when you ask her for Mr Brownstone, Nightrain or Rocket Queen. But she does know Nothing else matters and the intro riff of Enter Sandmann for sure. 

 

Still Respectfully disagree.. Before the Illusions Guns were still sharing the stage with the likes of The Rolling Stones, Alice Cooper and Tom Petty.. Axl and Slash were still household names.. Even the other guys to a lesser extent.. Axl was known for his Bandanna and snake dance from the Sweet Child video just as much as any Illusion Era outfit. Which were all pretty ridiculous looking.. Guns were the main feature in almost every music magazine during the Appetite Era. They made it into a Clint Eastwood movie.. They were blowing legendary headlining acts like Aerosmith off the stage and stealing their fans.. Look what happened at Donnington.. They sold out Wembley Stadium before the Illusions albums were released as well. The also completely owned the Rock In Rio shows which were massive and aired on MTV as well.. Again.. Sure they were huge during the Illusions tour but they were already the biggest rock band in the world before this albums even dropped and could have been selling out the world just as much in 89-90 as they did they years after but they were working on new music which took 2 years..

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7 minutes ago, Tom-Ass said:

Still Respectfully disagree.. Before the Illusions Guns were still sharing the stage with the likes of The Rolling Stones, Alice Cooper and Tom Petty.. Axl and Slash were still household names.. Even the other guys to a lesser extent.. Axl was known for his Bandanna and snake dance from the Sweet Child video just as much as any Illusion Era outfit. Which were all pretty ridiculous looking.. Guns were the main feature in almost every music magazine during the Appetite Era. They made it into a Clint Eastwood movie.. They were blowing legendary headlining acts like Aerosmith off the stage and stealing their fans.. Look what happened at Donnington.. They sold out Wembley Stadium before the Illusions albums were released as well. The also completely owned the Rock In Rio shows which were massive and aired on MTV as well.. Again.. Sure they were huge during the Illusions tour but they were already the biggest rock band in the world before this albums even dropped and could have been selling out the world just as much in 89-90 as they did they years after but they were working on new music which took 2 years..

 I hear you and totally agree that AFD is a once in a lifetime classic (or legend or whatever) album. I even bought this fuckin L&L box at the day of release because this album and the AFD era means so much to me.

But my personal opinion is and will be: no UYI era, no NITL success (NITL success = GNR are a mass phenomenon)

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16 minutes ago, acor said:

Im not talking about NITL tour at all... You used the word "legend", and that's what I was referring to... I wasn't talking about popularity (although sales levels of AfD and UYI seems to contradict your pov)... And there's no maybe in wheter they'd be a legends if they released only AFD... Its a fact. 

Dude, but I was referring to NITL tour in my original post! Within this post I used the word „legend“ as a synonym for „mass phenomenon“  in the context of explaining the NITL tour‘s success. I don’t think it’s that difficult.

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I don't know if this has been talked about, but is there a chance that the raw footage of the Perfect Crime doc and footage of past concerts went up in smoke in that fire? Wondering if any film was also stored in that warehouse. What a loss that would be.

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4 hours ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

I don't know if this has been talked about, but is there a chance that the raw footage of the Perfect Crime doc and footage of past concerts went up in smoke in that fire? Wondering if any film was also stored in that warehouse. What a loss that would be.

I think they would have to be truly incompetent to not have back-ups for absolutely everything stored elsewhere.  However, the original masters for a lot of that type of stuff probably did go up in flames. 

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Posted (edited)

Axl hates UYI.

Too many bad memories of the band and from his own personal life during the time period. Remember how many years it took Axl to start playing more songs from the UYI albums when he came out of hiding?

I wouldn't expect much from any UYI anniversary release. A lot of stuff was probably lost in the UMG 2008 fire. We could still get the remastered album & some "Estranged" dolphin car decals for $1,000 if we behave ourselves.

Edited by The Macaroni Incident?

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16 hours ago, zigzagbigbag said:

Dude, but I was referring to NITL tour in my original post! Within this post I used the word „legend“ as a synonym for „mass phenomenon“  in the context of explaining the NITL tour‘s success. I don’t think it’s that difficult.

But legend and mass phenomenon are two different things... UYI Era GnR are not "legend" of any kind... Don't use wrong words to discribe things.

 

Although I must say, if having diamond album and #1 single is not massive, then I don't know what is... By all available evidence,, GnR were bigger band during AfD era (post AfD era actually, as it took a while for the album to break out) than during UYI era.

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1 hour ago, The Macaroni Incident? said:

Axl hates UYI.

Too many bad memories of the band and from his own personal life during the time period. Remember how many years it took Axl to start playing more songs from the UYI albums when he came out of hiding?

I wouldn't expect much from any UYI anniversary release. A lot of stuff was probably lost in the UMG 2008 fire. We could still get the remastered album & some "Estranged" dolphin car decals for $1,000 if we behave ourselves.

How do you know that Axl hates UYI?

Just because he was not playing much if anything from the albums when he did resurface, does not mean that he hated them. More like it was too emotional for him to have to try and re-connect with the material on the albums for what they stood for. Axl bared his soul on some of those tracks. Don't forget that some of the material from UYI is rooted in the bands early days before AFD was even released.

At the time Axl was trying to forge ahead whilst dealing with the pain and frustration of the breakup. His focus was new material whilst using some of the anchors from AFD  to help with the performance without impacting him too emotionally.

Am glad that he has found what appears to be a place of peace that he can sing the old material now. 

Would love for them to mark the anniversary with a release. Am hopeful we get remastered and demo versions along with a full pro shot show, along with a cinema release of the behind the scenes footage. Only 779 days until the 30 year mark. Guess we'll have to wait and see......

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47 minutes ago, acor said:

But legend and mass phenomenon are two different things... UYI Era GnR are not "legend" of any kind... Don't use wrong words to discribe things

If you say so. 

 

48 minutes ago, acor said:

Although I must say, if having diamond album and #1 single is not massive, then I don't know what is...

Nobody said this is not „massive“. Don’t use wrong words. 

 

49 minutes ago, acor said:

. By all available evidence,, GnR were bigger band during AfD era (post AfD era actually, as it took a while for the album to break out) than during UYI era.

Lol. Yeah right! And there is no climate change. Its all fake news. 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, zigzagbigbag said:

 

Nobody said this is not „massive“. Don’t use wrong words. 

 

Lol. Yeah right! And there is no climate change. Its all fake news. 

Ad 1. You said first UYI made them "legend", now "massive phenomenon", wich is implying they weren't massive before.

And while their legend status during AfD era, and fact that UYI's legacy is neglible at best is obvious to everyone, I also said that by all available evidence (it means-record sales, not opinion of your neighboor, work mate or whoever) they were massive before-in fact more than after- UYI.

Ad 2. Ummm... Take your pills???

Edited by acor

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, acor said:

Ad 1. You said first UYI made them "legend", now "massive phenomenon", wich is implying they weren't massive before.

And while their legend status during AfD era, and fact that UYI's legacy is neglible at best is obvious to everyone, I also said that by all available evidence (it means-record sales, not opinion of your neighboor, work mate or whoever) they were massive before-in fact more than after- UYI.

Ad 2. Ummm... Take your pills???

Ah, something which turns into a mass (not massive!) phenomenon could not have been already massive before?! Good to know. 

Once again: GNR were massive before UYI. I have not been saying anything else. 

But your statement that they had been bigger before UYI than afterwards, specially in between 91 and 93/94, is complete nonsense. Show me your evidence. 

And with respect to the „legend“ status: To be a legend has NOTHING to do with records sales but with the respect that a certain group of people (small or big) brings you after some period of time. In no way GNR were called legends by anyone during the AFD era. They were a massive (!) rock band. Nothing more and nothing less. No mass phenomenon, no legends. 

In fact, they were not to be considered as a legend before 2000 at the earliest, by no means while the AFD/UYI lieup was still active. What they turned legends for the mainstream was their omnipresence during the UYI era. The people on this forum are not representative. 

Edited by zigzagbigbag

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, zigzagbigbag said:

 

But your statement that they had been bigger before UYI than afterwards, specially in between 91 and 93/94, is complete nonsense. Show me your evidence. 

And with respect to the „legend“ status: To be a legend has NOTHING to do with records sales but with the respect that a certain group of people (small or big) brings you after some period of time. In no way GNR were called legends by anyone during the AFD era. They were a massive (!) rock band. Nothing more and nothing less. No mass phenomenon, no legends. 

In fact, they were not to be considered as a legend before 2000 at the earliest, by no means while the AFD/UYI lieup was still active. What they turned legends for the mainstream was their omnipresence during the UYI era. The people on this forum are not representative. 

For 5434354 time. Go to Wikipedia. Check record sales. Check single charts. Here is your evidence. Better than testimony of your coworker, or whoever... AfD out sold both Illusions combined. Biggest single wasn't NR, it was SCOM.

Only commercial edge UYI'S have over AfD is bigger initial sales, but its only because of post AfD hype. Otherwise its clear wich album was more popular.

Its obvious they were not "a legend" during AfD era, because status of "a legend" comes with time. Nirvana wasn't a legend in 91-94 era, Led Zeppelin weren't legend yet during first half of 70s- but its music that they made that time made them the legend.

And no, reason why they are big name now is not UYI era... Its because they used to be legendary band, and their legend was built mostly on AfD.

Edited by acor

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, acor said:

By all available evidence,, GnR were bigger band during AfD era (post AfD era actually, as it took a while for the album to break out) than during UYI era.

What evidence would that be? What possible evidence could you even have for such a statement?

I don't think it is correct. The UYI tour, especially the stint with Metallica and the legs in Europe and South America, turned GN'R into the hottest rock band of the time. The AFD touring lifted them from anonymity to one of the most exciting things happening, but it was when they stadium headlined across the world it really blew up.

But back to evidence. Thinking about the few metrics we have, like amount of press coverage, sizes of audiences, and the number of times the media referred to them as "the biggest rock band" (or similar), then GN'R hit their peak in the early 90s. 

Then they dropped quickly. Grunge came and bloated rock bands with all that 80s behavior became stale. Axl's antics caused a lot of antipathy. They stopped releasing music. In late 1994 and 1995, few people cared any more.

Edited by SoulMonster
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22 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

What evidence would that be? What possible evidence could you even have for such a statement?

I don't think it is correct. The UYI tour, especially the stint with Metallica and the legs in Europe and South America, turned GN'R into the hottest rock band of the time. The AFD touring lifted them from anonymity to one of the most exciting things happening, but it was when they stadium headlined across the world it really blew up.

But back to evidence. Thinking about the few metrics we have, like amount of press coverage, sizes of audiences, and the number of times the media referred to them as "the biggest rock band" (or similar), then GN'R hit their peak in the early 90s. 

Then they dropped quickly. Grunge came and bloated rock bands with all that 80s behavior became stale. Axl's antics caused a lot of antipathy. They stopped releasing music. In late 1994 and 1995, few people cared any more.

Thank you very, very much, SoulMonster! 

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32 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

What evidence would that be? What possible evidence could you even have for such a statement?

I don't think it is correct. The UYI tour, especially the stint with Metallica and the legs in Europe and South America, turned GN'R into the hottest rock band of the time. The AFD touring lifted them from anonymity to one of the most exciting things happening, but it was when they stadium headlined across the world it really blew up.

But back to evidence. Thinking about the few metrics we have, like amount of press coverage, sizes of audiences, and the number of times the media referred to them as "the biggest rock band" (or similar), then GN'R hit their peak in the early 90s.

We don't have evidence for press coverage, as nobody counts it... Sizes of audiences is a poor evidence... While touring with AfD they were mostly a support band, in fact when AfD broke out big, they were in the middle of supporting tour... We don't know what audiences they would pull if they toured in 1989.

 

Evidence we have (and OP for some reason decides to ignore) are record sales and chart positions and they left no doubt wich era was more superior not only artisticlly, but commercially as well...

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5 minutes ago, acor said:

We don't have evidence for press coverage, as nobody counts it... Sizes of audiences is a poor evidence... While touring with AfD they were mostly a support band, in fact when AfD broke out big, they were in the middle of supporting tour... We don't know what audiences they would pull if they toured in 1989.

 

Evidence we have (and OP for some reason decides to ignore) are record sales and chart positions and they left no doubt wich era was more superior not only artisticlly, but commercially as well...

Dude, I cannot believe that yo still don’t get it. 

I said nothing but that NITL tour is that successful because of the unbelievable amount of human beings which got known to or into GNR (mass phenomenon). And this mass phenomenon happened with the UYI hype, especially in 92/93. 

This has nothing to do with the question which record is the most popular/legend Guns record respectively.  I neither does with the question which song charted the best. 

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, acor said:

We don't have evidence for press coverage, as nobody counts it... Sizes of audiences is a poor evidence... While touring with AfD they were mostly a support band, in fact when AfD broke out big, they were in the middle of supporting tour... We don't know what audiences they would pull if they toured in 1989.

Evidence we have (and OP for some reason decides to ignore) are record sales and chart positions and they left no doubt wich era was more superior not only artisticlly, but commercially as well...

I do kind of count it :lol:

And sizes of audiences is a VERY good indicator of how popular a band is. If Niven and the band thought they could headlining stadium after AFD was released, then they would. And although you are entirely correct that they probably could have scaled up the venues in the second half of 1988, when AFD took off, they needed the intense hype in 1989-1991 to get to the point of headlining stadiums.

Record sales build over time. Yes, AFD is the best record they released in terms of units sold, but that doesn't mean that band was more popular in 1988 than in 1992. You have to look at contemporary metrics, and that's where audience sizes come in, and press coverage (and yes, I am counting). The hype surrounding the release of the UYIs were intense, as anyone around in that type can witness. MTV almost had daily news on the band. 

But as I stated before, the UYI era was also when the band blew up outside of the major markets of North America and west Europe. It was through the performances at RIR in January 1991 and the South American leg in late 1992 that really made them huge is that market. They weren't as large before 1991 in that region. Nor in Eastern Europe, which they also hit in 1992.

As far as chart positions go, UYIs were a more immediate hit than AFD, as you know. The two records debuted on top of Billboard. That in itself demonstrates what a huge phenomenon GN'R had grown to be.

Edited by SoulMonster
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And I forgot to say, there are numerous articles post-1990 that refer to GN'R as "the biggest band in the world" (or variations thereof). I can't remember any from before 1991. They got huge, true, but before 1990 it was more, like, "look at these newcomers blowing Aerosmith off stage", "look at the band that opens for Rolling Stones, they are getting big now". Regarding the Stones gigs in October 1989, Niven wasn't sure about whether they should open for the Stones at the time, and said the band at that time could sell out arenas on their own, he didn't say stadiums. He is a dubious figure, but I do believe that NIven knew what he was talking about here.

 

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I think it's pretty obvious that they hit their peak in the early 90's regarding popularity. They weren't as cool anymore as they were during the AFD era because of the alternative bands and all the drama that surrounded them by then, but they were more popular than ever.

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5 hours ago, acor said:

But legend and mass phenomenon are two different things... UYI Era GnR are not "legend" of any kind... Don't use wrong words to discribe things.

 

Although I must say, if having diamond album and #1 single is not massive, then I don't know what is... By all available evidence,, GnR were bigger band during AfD era (post AfD era actually, as it took a while for the album to break out) than during UYI era.

UYI era GnR not legend? That is an asinine claim. 2 albums in the top 5, massively successful 2 year tour, 4 top 40 hits, the MOST viewed music video of the pre 2000 era! GTFOH!

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19 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

UYI era GnR not legend? That is an asinine claim. 2 albums in the top 5, massively successful 2 year tour, 4 top 40 hits, the MOST viewed music video of the pre 2000 era! GTFOH!

"2 albums in top5" based strong pre-sale (wich was based on AfD legacy)

 

Massive succesful 2 year tour- yep, Im sure St. Louis and Montreal concert goers have a nice memories... Not mentioning leader turning band into travelling circus, and founder of the band was replaced by some peasant halfway...

And yeah- music videos made their legacy...

 

Took UYI out of their discography- they're Sex Pistols

Took AfD out of their discography- they're random pop band...

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UYI is the biggest they ever were. Without it they're a one album wonder. With all the UYI hype they're RNRHOF.

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