STAR WARS: Convoluted Cash- Cow Disney Adventure Series That Will Never End Thread

[PatrickS77]

5 minutes ago, Dazey said:

Did it suddenly turn into Citizen Kane at the halfway mark then?  

No. But then you kinda knew what was coming. The extensive worlds and characters. The opulency of it all, while the OT is rather reduced.

[Chewbacca]

24 minutes ago, Dazey said:

The problem is that they by definition come before the OT therefore they have an impact on the story and the characters. You can't watch the prequels without affecting your perception of the characters in the OT whereas you can see the ST purely because it doesn't really impact narratively on what happened before.

Yes, but it cripples their achievements. After starkiller fired, and with the knowledge we now have that Palpatine is behind it all and with a new fallen Skywalker, we were back to where we were by the begining of episode IV. With the prequels, Vader was still Vader, him being a crybaby when young is irrelevant, he changed into Vader nevertheless, Palpatine was still Palpatine, Obi Wan was still Obi Wan and so on...

Thanks to the sequels, Luke is not the character who went thru the hero's journey and achieved his objectives anymore and saw light in Vader, he's a grumpy failure that tried to kill his nephew, even if he was going to give up, he went all the way there, completely out of his character and what his more mature and resolved self from the EU would never do.

Vader also had the short end, his prophecy was no more. Palpatine survived and so on. The prequels did not touch that. 

Edited December 24, 2019 by Chewbacca

[DieselDaisy]

15 minutes ago, Dazey said:

The problem is that they by definition come before the OT therefore they have an impact on the story and the characters. You can't watch the prequels without affecting your perception of the characters in the OT whereas you can see the ST purely because it doesn't really impact narratively on what happened before.

Is that true though? I feel like saying to them celebrating on Endor at the end of Return of the Jedi,

''All a complete waste of time!! You have just wasted your life being in the rebel alliance people. Congratulations. You two (Han and Leia) shag and produce a son who sort of turns to the dark side, and sort of doesn't, and then sort of does (he cannot really make up his mind); he ends up committing patricide Han so you'd better watch him! The Emperor Palpatine actually survived his epic fall and explosion so you shouldn't look so happy there Luke! Luke, you are going to turn into one of the Bee Gees when you grow older and live on a little island milking strange creatures. The Emperor? The Emperor has in fact been a naughty boy and has been spreading his oats with his deformed Sith codger so there will be more Palpatines. There are star destroyers and Tie-fighters still about to be built, and fascist uniforms to be worn by people with English accents, so the empire survived really, except it will be renamed the First Order. There will even be Death Star type constructions which are destroyed in the exact same manner as the Death Stars you lot destroyed, so engineering clearly won't improve''. 

Edited December 24, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[Dazey]

4 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Yes, but it cripples their achievements. After starkiller fired, and with the knowledge we now have that Palpatine is behind it all and with a new fallen Skywalker, we were back to where we were by the begining of episode IV. With the prequels, Vader was still Vader, him being a crybaby when young is irrelevant, he changed into Vader nevertheless, Palpatine was still Palpatine, Obi Wan was still Obi Wan and so on...

Thanks to the sequels, Luke is not the character who went thru the hero's journey and achieved his objectives anymore and saw light in Vader, he's a grumpy failure that triednto kills his nephew, even he was going to give up, he went all the way there, completely out of his character and what his more mature and resolved self from the EU would never do.

Vader also had the short end, his prophecy was no more. Palpatine survived and so on. The prequels did not touch that. 

 

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Is that true though? I feel like saying to them celebrating on Endor at the end of Return of the Jedi,

''All a complete waste of time!! You have just wasted your life being in the rebel alliance people. Congratulations. You two (Han and Leia) shag and produce a son who sort of turns to the dark side, and sort of doesn't, and then sort of does (he cannot really make up his mind); he ends up committing patricide Han so you'd better watch him! The Emperor Palpatine actually survived his epic fall and explosion so you shouldn't look so happy there Luke! Luke, you are going to turn into one of the Bee Gees when you grow older and live on a little island milking strange creatures. The Emperor? The Emperor has in fact been a naughty boy and has been spreading his oats with his deformed Sith codger so there will be more Palpatines. There are star destroyers and Tie-fighters still about to be built, and fascist uniforms to be worn by people with English accents, so the empire survived really, except it will be renamed the First Order. There will even be Death Star type constructions which are destroyed in the exact same manner as the Death Stars you lot destroyed, so engineering clearly won't improve''. 

I guess I just find it easier to ignore the shit that came after as it technically doesn't influence the events of the proper films.  

[PatrickS77]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

Is that true though? I feel like saying to them celebrating on Endor at the end of Return of the Jedi,

''All a complete waste of time!! You have just wasted your life being in the rebel alliance people. Congratulations. You two (Han and Leia) shag and produce a son who sort of turns to the dark side, and sort of doesn't, and then sort of does (he cannot really make up his mind); he ends up committing patricide Han so you'd better watch him! The Emperor Palpatine actually survived his epic fall and explosion so you shouldn't look so happy there Luke! Luke, you are going to turn into one of the Bee Gees when you grow older and live on a little island milking strange creatures. The Emperor? The Emperor has in fact been a naughty boy and has been spreading his oats with his deformed Sith codger so there will be more Palpatines. There are star destroyers and Tie-fighters still about to be built, and fascist uniforms to be worn by people with English accents, so the empire survived really, except it will be renamed the First Order. There will even be Death Star type constructions which are destroyed in the exact same manner as the Death Stars you lot destroyed, so engineering clearly won't improve''. 

Out of likes, but that's why I kinda came to hate the ST (which got worse from movie to movie) and think it's a colossal waste of time. It did nothing to move things along, just shit on everything, set things back and gave us a rehash, just in bad.

Edited December 24, 2019 by PatrickS77

[RussTCB]

7 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Your ''incest plot'' concerns one kiss which was done to make Han jealous. It cannot be compared with the sudden changes, flip-flopping between villains, characters doing a dramatic volte-face, etc etc, in the Disney films. Not sure I agree about Carrie Fisher's acting. And yes, the original trilogy is light years - pardon the expression - better.

PS

About children watching them, I am currently introducing my nephew to them: IV-VI. He can stumble on the prequels and Disney shit if he stumbles on them but I'll not be the one to introduce them to him.

You guys are literally making me lol with your thin justifications of a gigantic plot hole lol

[Amir]

 

[DieselDaisy]

3 hours ago, RussTCB said:

You guys are literally making me lol with your thin justifications of a gigantic plot hole lol

Name one plot hole in the original trilogy as gigantic as Palpatine mysteriously surviving, or the sudden flip-flop on Rey's parentage?

[Amir]

I think A New Hope and especially Empire Strikes Back are far better films, but they weren't exactly masterminded years in advance/following an exact plan. Yes, Lucas did write a multi-chapter "The Star Wars", but that changed a lot over time. When "Star Wars" was released in 1977, Darth Vader was a dude, and Darth was just his first name, not a title. The father reveal was an addition during development of Empire:

https://www.quora.com/Did-George-Lucas-know-that-Darth-Vader-was-Lukes-father-during-the-production-of-Episode-4

https://www.quora.com/When-the-original-1977-Star-Wars-was-made-did-George-Lucas-already-know-that-Darth-Vader-was-going-to-be-the-father-of-Luke-and-Leia

When Yoda says "there is another", he wasn't referring to Leia, but another Jedi who would be revealed. The plot of ROTJ cribbed from what was supposed to be Episode IX. Leia being Luke's sister was an addition after Empire, hence the incestuous kiss:

https://www.quora.com/When-Yoda-says-there-is-another-Skywalker-in-Return-of-the-Jedi-is-he-referring-to-Rey-from-the-Force-Awakens

Quote

Now, in the earliest iterations of the story, this is referring to Luke’s twin sister Nellith. In the very earliest outlines and drafts, like the first draft of ESB by Leigh Brackett, Anakin appears as a Force ghost and is clearly NOT Vader, and the original plan is the sister was hidden far away from Luke and was among other things trained by Anakin’s ghost. She was going to feature in a sequel trilogy that would include Luke defeating the Emperor after searching out his long-lost sister. Vader’s defeat, iirc, would feature in the third OT film as a dramatic arc conclusion, but not the ultimate end of the war.

At some point in the writing of ESB, Kasdan and Lucas decided to omit Anakin’s ghost and instead go for the Big Reveal we all know and love. The plan, though, was still that Luke’s sister would be a new character.

At some point Lucas decided he did not want to put the time and energy, mental and physical, into jumping right into a sequel. Instead he’d wrap things up in the third film. That worked well as far as condensing Vader and Anakin into one character went, and if anything made defeating the Emperor more satisfying, but it also meant they had Yoda’s comment about “another” hanging and only one movie to deal with it. Their choices were finding a way to cram a brand-new character into the film somehow, or they had to pick someone available audiences already knew. By deciding to keep it a sister, that reduced their options down to about one.

That said, all these decisions were guided by one man. With the sequel trilogy, you have Abrams and Johnson with diametrically opposed views of what they want to say and do with a Star Wars film, and it makes no sense to have them share a trilogy. TLJ makes much of TFA redundant, as does TROS with TLJ.

Edited December 24, 2019 by Amir

[PatrickS77]

5 hours ago, RussTCB said:

You guys are literally making me lol with your thin justifications of a gigantic plot hole lol

It simply is not a plot hole.

[Dazey]

5 hours ago, RussTCB said:

You guys are literally making me lol with your thin justifications of a gigantic plot hole lol

It’s only a plot hole if Luke and Leia knew they were siblings at that point in the movie. They didn’t so it isn’t. 

[PatrickS77]

1 hour ago, Amir said:

I think A New Hope and especially Empire Strikes Back are far better films, but they weren't exactly masterminded years in advance/following an exact plan. Yes, Lucas did write a multi-chapter "The Star Wars", but that changed a lot over time. When "Star Wars" was released in 1977, Darth Vader was a dude, and Darth was just his first name, not a title. The father reveal was an addition during development of Empire:

https://www.quora.com/Did-George-Lucas-know-that-Darth-Vader-was-Lukes-father-during-the-production-of-Episode-4

https://www.quora.com/When-the-original-1977-Star-Wars-was-made-did-George-Lucas-already-know-that-Darth-Vader-was-going-to-be-the-father-of-Luke-and-Leia

When Yoda says "there is another", he wasn't referring to Leia, but another Jedi who would be revealed. The plot of ROTJ cribbed from what was supposed to be Episode IX. Leia being Luke's sister was an addition after Empire, hence the incestuous kiss:

https://www.quora.com/When-Yoda-says-there-is-another-Skywalker-in-Return-of-the-Jedi-is-he-referring-to-Rey-from-the-Force-Awakens

That said, all these decisions were guided by one man. With the sequel trilogy, you have Abrams and Johnson with diametrically opposed views of what they want to say and do with a Star Wars film, and it makes no sense to have them share a trilogy. TLJ makes much of TFA redundant, as does TROS with TLJ.

As a new film maker, he couldn't be sure of the success of the movie and that he could make 3 movies. And really, why does it matter whether he had a plan or not? He pulled it off and it's barely noticeable, that he made it up as he went along. For the prequel trilogy he had a plan and stuck to it. Disney is a billion dollar company and knew from the get go they were making 3 movies and yet they failed to come up with a story for 3 movies and failed to plan accordingly, letting one hired director paint them in a corner to the point that it unraveld the whole thing.

[RussTCB]

2 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Name one plot hole in the original trilogy as gigantic as Palpatine mysteriously surviving, or the sudden flip-flop on Rey's parentage?

I already did, along with Carrie's bad acting overall, coupled with her shifting accent. You didn't address the latter and claimed the first one just isn't that big of a deal. 

[DieselDaisy]

47 minutes ago, RussTCB said:

I already did, along with Carrie's bad acting overall, coupled with her shifting accent. You didn't address the latter and claimed the first one just isn't that big of a deal. 

It isn't a case of me not addressing or dismissing, but simply not agreeing with you. 

[RussTCB]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

It isn't a case of me not addressing or dismissing, but simply not agreeing with you. 

You don't agree that Carrie has an accent in some scenes and not in others? 

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, RussTCB said:

You don't agree that Carrie has an accent in some scenes and not in others? 

What accent(s) are we discussing here? If I was going to signal out anyone for bad acting in the original trilogy, it would be Hamill.

[RussTCB]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

What accent(s) are we discussing here? If I was going to signal out anyone for bad acting in the original trilogy, it would be Hamill.

Carrie is (poorly) attempting a British accent with the "I thought I recognized your fowl stench..." line. Then for the rest of the movie, she doesn't attempt an accent. 

[Rovim]

52 minutes ago, RussTCB said:

I already did, along with Carrie's bad acting overall, coupled with her shifting accent. You didn't address the latter and claimed the first one just isn't that big of a deal. 

I liked her presence in the original films, like I wouldn't want anyone else to portray her character but it's undeniable her acting was really bad and I remember watching a documentary about her where they spliced together a scene where she talked in a British accent and then American one and she joked about how ridiculous it was.

[rocknroll41]

@RussTCB and @DieselDaisy the weird British accent scene with Leia and Tarkin in the original Star Wars was an improv idea by Carrie that has since been retconned in the starwars universe as being some sorta formality, where politicians are required to speak in British accents to one another whenever they have a formal meeting. It’s stupid... but it works, I guess.

[RussTCB]

10 minutes ago, Rovim said:

I liked her presence in the original films, like I wouldn't want anyone else to portray her character but it's undeniable her acting was really bad and I remember watching a documentary about her where they spliced together a scene where she talked in a British accent and then American one and she joked about how ridiculous it was.

See below. 

3 minutes ago, rocknroll41 said:

@RussTCB and @DieselDaisy the weird British accent scene with Leia and Tarkin in the original Star Wars was an improv idea by Carrie that has since been retconned in the starwars universe as being some sorta formality, where politicians are required to speak in British accents to one another whenever they have a formal meeting. It’s stupid... but it works, I guess.

Right on. Don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to shit on the woman or anything. I'm just saying that the original trilogy is not perfect. 

I grew up on those movies and love them too. I'm just saying they're far from perfect. To act like this new trilogy came in and ruined perfection just isn't accurate IMO. 

[Chewbacca]

6 hours ago, RussTCB said:

You guys are literally making me lol with your thin justifications of a gigantic plot hole lol

What plot hole? The incest? They didn't know and Obi Wan was not around when they kissed on 4 or 5. It's not really a plot hole. Sure he could've told that Leia was his sister when they saw her on the hologram, but he was clearly trying to keep it low so Luke wouldn't discover Vader was his dad.

Sure, they being siblings wasn't planned from start, but back then Star Wars was a movie nobody wanted to bet their money on and even Lucas was expecting it to fail, which is why Splinter of The Mind's Eye came as a possible plan B sequel with a much more simple and monotonous setting in order to have a lower payable budget. A very different situation with Disney who picked up SW as a household name.

[DieselDaisy]

2 minutes ago, RussTCB said:

Carrie is (poorly) attempting a British accent with the "I thought I recognized your fowl stench..." line. Then for the rest of the movie, she doesn't attempt an accent. 

Your attempt to deflect massive story line inconsistencies such as the emperor being pulled out of the arse, as well as character volte-faces (Luke) by pointing out that the young Carrie Fisher had her wooden moments in the original Star Wars?

12 minutes ago, RussTCB said:

See below. 

Right on. Don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to shit on the woman or anything. I'm just saying that the original trilogy is not perfect. 

I grew up on those movies and love them too. I'm just saying they're far from perfect. To act like this new trilogy came in and ruined perfection just isn't accurate IMO. 

This is a straw man though. Nobody is saying that the new trilogy came in and ruined the perfection of the originals - although I personally feel Empire actually is perfect. What people are saying is the Disney films are such an appalling regression in quality, plotting, consistency - basically everything.

You are jumping from one extreme to the other, finding the tiniest evidence of imperfection in the originals to attempt to justify the utter wankery on display in Disney's three turds. 

[RussTCB]

5 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Sure, they being siblings wasn't planned from start...

and that's been my entire point the whole time. 

[Chewbacca]

34 minutes ago, RussTCB said:

and that's been my entire point the whole time. 

And that's a pretty bad point since they tie this loose end in 6 and it was caused in first place due to the fact it wasn't planned as a trilogy and it wasn't planned as a trilogy due to budget limits (nobody wanted to bet on it) and it being a movie that was largely discredited and expected to fail. A completely different scenario from what Disney was given. Seriously, nobody expected the OT was going to be a hit. That's why "Star Wars" only became episode IV A New Hope AFTER Empire Strikes Back was almost ready to hit the theaters. Also, A New Hope almost didn't come out due to problems caused by the delays on the SFX caused by ILM.

In fact, the notion that IV was going to bomb was so spread between the staff, that even the actors were goofing around betting who had the dumbest lines on that space mumbo jumbo. Those are some well known facts for Star Wars nerds and even with all that crap they still managed to release an unassuming flick that became a blockbuster that changed pop culture forever.

Edited December 24, 2019 by Chewbacca

[RussTCB]

4 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

And that's a pretty bad point since they tie this loose end in 6 and it was caused in first place due to the fact it wasn't planned as a trilogy and it wasn't planned as a trilogy due to budget limits (nobody wanted to bet on it) and it being a movie that was largely discredited and expected to fail. A completely different scenario from what Disney was given. Seriously, nobody expected the OT was going to be a hit. That's why "Star Wars" only became episode IV A New Hope AFTER Empire Strikes Back was almost ready to hit the theaters. Also, A New Hope almost didn't come out due to problems caused by the delays on the SFX caused by ILM.

In fact, the notion that IV was going to bomb was so spread between the staff, that even the actors were goofing around betting who had the dumbest lines on that space mumbo jumbo. Those are some well known facts for Star Wars nerds and even with all that crap they still managed to release an unassuming flick that became a blockbuster that changed pop culture forever.

I know all of that lol. 

My original point was there were things in the OG trilogy had to be fixed later. That was the only point I was making.