Fans infuriated after two-hour wait for Guns N' Roses Liverpool gig

[downzy]

Andrew,

GNR is certainly the exception to the rule in many ways. Continuing to go on at a time that would be more typical for a bar or club band as opposed to a major arena band.

But shouldn't they be allowed to present the show they want to present? If the promoter is aware they will be going on between 11 and midnight, isn't it the promoter's responsibility to honestly promote the show? The promoter hires the band to perform a show. You are not buying a GNR ticket. You are buying a ticket to the promoter's event to see GNR. If the promoter chooses to open doors at 6pm and only hire one opener even though they know GNR is going on at 11 or 12, is GNR really going on two hours late in that situation? Or should the promoter have promoted a more honest start time?

This is as big of a simplification as I have ever seen. You exclude venue agreements that require doors open at a certain time for concession (ie. food and liquor) obligations. Unless the promoter or artist wants to comp the venue the revenue lost by opening doors later and thus forfeiting liquor and food sales, it is the mandate of the venue to stipulate when the doors are contractually obligated to be opened. You also seem to believe that promoters have a lot of pull when it comes to ticket prices, details and the like. Perhaps that was the case 40-30 years ago, but ask any legitimate promoter who deals with big artists and they'll tell you that artist calls all the shots. They simply facilitate.

Knowing that GNR is going at 11:00 or midnight is different that contractually obligated. It is a reasonable assumption that GNR is contractually obligated to play the show much earlier than they normally do otherwise the promoter him or herself would be subject to late fines enforced by either the venue or jurisdiction.

And let's be honest, if GNR went on at 11 and played 90 minutes, you wouldn't have nearly as many reviewers writing all these negative reviews. So GNR is being punished for playing a long time, which is ridiculous.

Yes, let's be honest. I've seen GNR 14 times since 2002 and I can say with certainty that the problem isn't the length of the shows. Out of the 14 I've seen, NYC '02, Ottawa '06, Hamilton '10, and Hamilton '12 were the only shows where GNR took the stage with less than two hours between them and the previous opener. It's not the length of the show, it's the length of wait between opener and GNR. All three Toronto shows since 2002 have been around the 3 hour mark between opener and GNR. With the exception of NYC '02, there was a least a two hour wait for the other four GNR concerts I saw (Toronto, Detroit, Boston, London ON) in 2002. The '06 tour was pretty much the same.

It would be in their best interest, if possible, to go on earlier if they attend to play for such a long time, but maybe it's not possible? Some people operate best at certain hours. You guys act like Axl Rose is a robot. He's a human being with strengths and weaknesses. Positive qualities and flaws. Maybe he's doing the best he can? If it's not good enough, STAY HOME. I highly doubt he would fault you if you did.

That's a pretty weak excuse if you ask me. You're right, they're human beings, and 99% of other human beings can get their act together when it comes to getting to work on time. If you seriously think Axl's best is taking two hours to get onstage you don't think much of the man.

Everyone is responsible for themselves in life. If Axl's drawing power is partially diminished because he goes on late and he earns less because of it, then he has to live with the consequences of his actions. Again, I don't see him complaining on gunsnroses.com about people that don't come because he starts late.

No, but he complains onstage if he feels like he isn't being respected. Very rich considering what we're discussing.

Cheers,

Andrew

Edited May 24, 2012 by downzy

[Kira]

you clearly stated you would never wait more than 20 minutes. maybe you need to have a stopwatch out?

Maybe you need to unclench? Maybe I waited 24 min once, so sue me. I've never waited a long time for someone who refused to acknowledge said wait time. Which is the underlying issue at hand.

[Zint]

Zint -

He brought up his children. I did not insult them in any way. Is it wrong that I want all children to go to college and have heath care? What line did I cross? If I'm missing something here, I will gladly apologize. Let me know. Thanks.

Maybe CR doesn't want his kids to go to college. Maybe he'd be content with them being amateur wrestlers.

Wait 'til he figures out the new forum owner is a proud father.

sssshhhhhhhh.....

does he spend considerable amounts of time posting on multiple forums about a band he doesn't like? probably not. i'm sure he'd rather spend time with his kid(s).

Quite frankly,it's none of our business in either case.

[Dazey]

Wait 'til he figures out the new forum owner is a proud father.

sssshhhhhhhh.....

He's also a no nonsense Geordie! I'm getting me some popcorn! Go Subsy!

Maybe you need to unclench? Maybe I waited 24 min once, so sue me. I've never waited a long time for someone who refused to acknowledge said wait time. Which is the underlying issue at hand.

Doncha know it's out of Axl's hands? Even if he wanted to say something the evil promoter wouldn't allow it!

[Howard2k]

You didn't answer the question. How do you justify spending so much time on message boards devoted to bands you don't like when you have two children that need to be cared for, deserve a chance to eventually go to college, have healthcare, etc?

Holy fuck.

You have made some fucking retarded posts over the years. Some good ones too. But this is a new low for you. Well done.

[downzy]

Andrew,

Yes, I presented a very simplified version of how things work as obviously the majority of the readers here are not going to be knowledgeable of these subjects and if you get too in depth, you will be labeled a "nerd." I've enjoyed your posts on the subject very much and you certainly seem to be very informed. I did not want to confuse the issue by getting into great detail regarding venues, but you're certainly dead on. Many venues want their doors open early and there are often pre-existing contracts controlling this.

So we add another link in the chain. Artist >> Management >> Promoter >> Venue. All wanting to make as much money as possible (in theory). Obviously in the case of GNR, it does seem money is often left on the table in the name of "art." If GNR intends to go on at 11:30, perhaps doors should open at 8:30. Opener at 9:30. End at 10:30 and then one hour changeover.

But, the venue would not be happy with doors opening that late, the promoter would not be happy with advertising a 9:30 start time and harming sales, etc. Much easier to just lie to the public and let GNR take the heat.

I have attempted to see GNR 8 times. 2 shows got cancelled (2002 tour). The other 6 times, the wait was anywhere from 50 minutes to 2 hours. The wait sucks. The process of seeing GNR fucking sucks. So, if people choose to stay home, I totally understand. This is not about whether the fan complaints are valid, this is about whether blame is always fairly assigned.

Axl Rose is not 99% of human beings. Axl Rose is Axl Rose. People do not pay to see 99% of human beings. I never said I think much of the man. I don't think about the man at all one way or the other. I simply enjoy his art. However, I do know what it's like to be someone who operates best late at night and I do know what it's like to be subject to professional ridicule because of the schedule I choose to keep. All I can say is that people can go see GNR if they want and if they don't want to, don't. It's really that simple. I'm not saying it's good or right that they go on so late, I'm just saying they have the right to and we have the right to not go.

MSL,

I think we agree a lot more than our conversation may indicate. I'm personally not that offended by the band's late start because rarely, especially since 2006, do I show up anywhere near the suggested start time. I'm well aware of how this circus is run and tailor my plans accordingly. We agree that if Axl wants to take the stage late he bares all the responsibility and consequences of such actions. My point is that Axl is well aware of how the system works, the conditions that other participants (venue, promoters) are required to adhere to, and the issues that fans may face (ie. transportation, babysitters, travel plans) in regards to a GNR concert. It is on him and him alone as to when GNR comes onstage. Obviously he can't control everything, like weather in Rio or technical issues that prevent the band from playing, but these situations are rare exceptions.

You're right, there are many "links" in the concert chain. But it's always the fans who ended up paying for Axl's need to hold off the start (well, Axl most likely pays some hefty late fines). I've come to accept Axl's shenanigans, but of the 25 people that have accompanied me to a GNR show over the past 10 years, only 2 wanted to see the show again. Everyone who came with me, except for two who weren't impressed, loved the show. But most couldn't get over the wait, even though I mitigated some of it by suggesting we show up later. My point in stating this is to illustrate your point: most people do choose not to go. This isn't the fault of the promoter, venue, management, or ticket purchasers. Axl has only himself to blame for turning off potential repeat costumers by not getting on stage at a reasonable time so that there isn't a nauseating wait between the opening and main act. My friends, as ticket purchasers, had every right to voice their displeasure about being forced to wait an unreasonable amount of time for the show to start. To claim their frustration or anger is misplaced when directed at Axl isn't factually correct (again, for the most part, I'm sure there are genuine reasons for delay from time to time).

Cheers,

Andrew

[Apollo]

How can you get mad at a band for actually giving you your money's worth? I'd love for my other favorite bands to play even two hour sets. If it's getting too late and you have to leave early, that's fine. You got your two hours so it's not like you're wasting your money. I suppose if the sole reason you went to the show was for Paradise City, you'd be fucked. That's the only thing I can think of...

Not at all! If you pay the price for a full show and you can't see it all because of Axl's inconsiderate actions you don't get your moneys worth! Again you need to realise that the majority of the audience simply aren't aware to expect the late start. If they see doors at 6:30 and show start at 9:00 they have every right to expect that. It doesn't make them stupid it just means they don't spend every day on the forums.

Out of all the bands I've seen over the years, and there have been a fucking lot of them, this is the only one that I've ever really bothered to join a forum about. Every show I've been to I've bought the ticket cos I liked the band and their music and looked forward to seeing them live. I can count on the fingers of one hand the amount of significantly late starts and they were all for reasons beyond the band's control.

The people who insist that everybody should know exactly what to expect have far too much time on their hands to be fair and I include myself in this. People with busy lives, jobs and families will often buy the ticket on a whim, forget about it until the night of the show and go out looking forward to a rare night out expecting nothing more than a fun night and a little nostalgia seeing some of their favourite tunes for the first time in years.

Again it would be simple common courtesy to give some indication of possible delays to these people so they are able to factor the issue in when thinking about buying the ticket and making arrangements to get to and from the show.

Exactly.

The things some Axl worshippers will defend him for are unbelievable.

The band almost always puts on an amazing show. The current band is excellent live. Fantastic live band. Axl is still a master performer.

But going in stage two hours or more after the opening band is ridiculous. There is a reason that this doesn't happen with other bands. And saying that doesn't make me a bitter reunionist hater cupcake. It is just one of the unfortunate things that out favorite band does.

[Kill Devil Hill]

How can you get mad at a band for actually giving you your money's worth? I'd love for my other favorite bands to play even two hour sets. If it's getting too late and you have to leave early, that's fine. You got your two hours so it's not like you're wasting your money. I suppose if the sole reason you went to the show was for Paradise City, you'd be fucked. That's the only thing I can think of...

Not at all! If you pay the price for a full show and you can't see it all because of Axl's inconsiderate actions you don't get your moneys worth! Again you need to realise that the majority of the audience simply aren't aware to expect the late start. If they see doors at 6:30 and show start at 9:00 they have every right to expect that. It doesn't make them stupid it just means they don't spend every day on the forums.

Out of all the bands I've seen over the years, and there have been a fucking lot of them, this is the only one that I've ever really bothered to join a forum about. Every show I've been to I've bought the ticket cos I liked the band and their music and looked forward to seeing them live. I can count on the fingers of one hand the amount of significantly late starts and they were all for reasons beyond the band's control.

The people who insist that everybody should know exactly what to expect have far too much time on their hands to be fair and I include myself in this. People with busy lives, jobs and families will often buy the ticket on a whim, forget about it until the night of the show and go out looking forward to a rare night out expecting nothing more than a fun night and a little nostalgia seeing some of their favourite tunes for the first time in years.

Again it would be simple common courtesy to give some indication of possible delays to these people so they are able to factor the issue in when thinking about buying the ticket and making arrangements to get to and from the show.

Exactly.

The things some Axl worshippers will defend him for are unbelievable.

The band almost always puts on an amazing show. The current band is excellent live. Fantastic live band. Axl is still a master performer.

But going in stage two hours or more after the opening band is ridiculous. There is a reason that this doesn't happen with other bands. And saying that doesn't make me a bitter reunionist hater cupcake. It is just one of the unfortunate things that out favorite band does.

You guys are all missing the point. Yes, going on two hours late is ridiculous, yes to all of that, but it didn't happen in this particular instance. They went on 80 minutes after Thin Lizzy left the stage.

In any other instance, I'd agree with you guys, but GN'R wasn't two hours late at Liverpool.

[Brodie]

This is a public relations issue.

Unfortunately for Guns N' Roses, their Head of PR is also their band manager... and housekeeper.

I'll ignore the hilarious implications of that last sentence and point out that even exceptional individuals only have so much time and energy to expend.

You need help covering all of your bases to make sure everything is running smoothly but this band is pointlessly understaffed and those that tenet their posts are largely incompetent.

If they wanted to nip misinformation and untruths in the bud, they would have a proper Public Relations Head who would deal with the media and set facts straight (but that would create a standard of expectation which Axl seems to avoid).

So instead of competent business professionals confronting these problems, we have a bunch of assholes on the internet either damning or defending their retarded savior. The inmates run the proverbial asylum.

In the issue of full disclosure, I've seen shows where Axl was 2 hours late, I've seen shows where he was 5 minutes early. But you never know with Axl and that's the problem. Consumers like known quantities so they can get on with their lives.

They don't like the very possible prospect of Axl coming on an hour+ late... if he comes on at all. Some idiot could throw a cup at him and he could be on his period and walk his big gingery ass out. He could even walk out if, heaven forbid, you take his picture.

Anyway, a hour-twenty late is just as problematic as two hours late. It hurts your brand, your image, and your revenue stream.

As mentioned before if Axl is okay with things like this, he's going to have to live with the consequences: lower attendance, media backlash, embittered fan base, pop culture treating him like a joke.

Axl being late and the resulting cacophony is simply a microcosm of all of the dysfunction going on with the business entity "Guns N' Roses".

[sturginho]

Would someone who went to the show be kind enough to let us know what time the last opening act finished their set and what time GNR took the stage? Thanks.

On saturday Lizzy finished at about quarter to 10, Guns started about an hour later

[SoulMonster]

Unfortunately for Guns N' Roses, their Head of PR is also their band manager... and housekeeper.

Are you saying that Beta is still a housekeeper??

You need help covering all of your bases to make sure everything is running smoothly but this band is pointlessly understaffed and those that tenet their posts are largely incompetent.

Who in the current management of GN'R do you consider "largely incompetent" and what evidence do you have for such a claim?

After Team Brazil took over management GN'R seems to have been run a whole lot more professionally than before with more "professional" management, as evidenced by a great new band photographer, successful tours, a stable lineup, lots of interviews, a great tour book, revamped web pages, live streams, even an Axl interview.

Edited May 24, 2012 by SoulMonster

[Dazey]

The things some Axl worshippers will defend him for are unbelievable.

The thing is that 90% of the criticism I tend to see on here is less to do with the band directly and more a case of responding to some of the Axl worshippers. I'm rarely critical of them at all when taking part in a reasonable and balanced conversation but when I see some people being really rather silly about some of the indefensible things I get a nervous twitch and feel compelled to take the position of devil's advocate.

[Bruno P.]

Unfortunately for Guns N' Roses, their Head of PR is also their band manager... and housekeeper.

Are you saying that Beta is still a housekeeper??

He knows that she is not a housekeeper, but he's simply showing which "side" he's in when he said this...

we have a bunch of assholes on the internet either damning or defending their retarded savior.

Who in the current management of GN'R do you consider "largely incompetent" and what evidence do you have for such a claim?

After Team Brazil took over management GN'R seems to have been run a whole lot more professionally than before with more "professional" management, as evidenced by a great new band photographer, successful tours, a stable lineup, lots of interviews, a great tour book, revamped web pages, live streams, even an Axl interview.

I'm loving the 4 livestreams we got since they took over.

[YOUCOULDBEMINE.]

Wow people can easily derail threads without my help nowadays, good job!

[dustindmnd2]

Lol!! Were the outraged fans at all familiar with the band they went to see?! Sounds like gnr went on a little early!

Pubes

[spunko12345]

Unfortunately for Guns N' Roses, their Head of PR is also their band manager... and housekeeper.

Are you saying that Beta is still a housekeeper??

You need help covering all of your bases to make sure everything is running smoothly but this band is pointlessly understaffed and those that tenet their posts are largely incompetent.

Who in the current management of GN'R do you consider "largely incompetent" and what evidence do you have for such a claim?

After Team Brazil took over management GN'R seems to have been run a whole lot more professionally than before with more "professional" management, as evidenced by a great new band photographer, successful tours, a stable lineup, lots of interviews, a great tour book, revamped web pages, live streams, even an Axl interview.

The fact that GNR had such a half assed website and zero internet presence for more than a decade during the boom years of internet marketing. That was pretty incompetent.

[SoulMonster]

The fact that GNR had such a half assed website and zero internet presence for more than a decade during the boom years of internet marketing. That was pretty incompetent.

Yes, that was pretty incompetent, but Brodie claimed that today's management is incompetent and that was what I asked him to substantiate.

[rabia]

Unfortunately for Guns N' Roses, their Head of PR is also their band manager... and housekeeper.

Are you saying that Beta is still a housekeeper??

You need help covering all of your bases to make sure everything is running smoothly but this band is pointlessly understaffed and those that tenet their posts are largely incompetent.

Who in the current management of GN'R do you consider "largely incompetent" and what evidence do you have for such a claim?

After Team Brazil took over management GN'R seems to have been run a whole lot more professionally than before with more "professional" management, as evidenced by a great new band photographer, successful tours, a stable lineup, lots of interviews, a great tour book, revamped web pages, live streams, even an Axl interview.

The fact that GNR had such a half assed website and zero internet presence for more than a decade during the boom years of internet marketing. That was pretty incompetent.

Are you aware of the fact that current management has NOT been managing for "more than a decade"? Your answer was entirely irrelevant to the question.

Edited May 24, 2012 by rabia

[YOUCOULDBEMINE.]

[Paulywauly]

How do I get that Jackson clip you posted, it's brilliant ha ha?

[YOUCOULDBEMINE.]

http://imgur.com/tCp90.gif

Just click ''insert image'' when you want to reply and paste that link.

Edited May 24, 2012 by UcudBmineCD

[RocketQueen1985]

This gif is the only good thing in this thread. MJ <3

[Brodie]

Who in the current management of GN'R do you consider "largely incompetent" and what evidence do you have for such a claim?

Management is by definition incompetent as it is systemically nepotistic.

Most of the people in charge of important decisions were not professionally trained or educated in the positions that they hold.

But in particular, anyone and everyone responsible for branding, public relations, advertising, content strategy, social networking, and online marketing is unbiasedly incompetent.

And I, unlike anyone within management, am educated in said fields so I'm uniquely qualified to make such claims.

After Team Brazil took over management GN'R seems to have been run a whole lot more professionally than before with more "professional" management, as evidenced by a great new band photographer, successful tours, a stable lineup, lots of interviews, a great tour book, revamped web pages, live streams, even an Axl interview.

Most of the things that you listed here are incredibly basic.

Every garage band knows you need to have an internet presence, take pictures, make videos, etc., etc. yet somehow the importance of these things has evaded one of the biggest bands in rock history for the greater part of a decade.

Give a starving man a piece of bread and he'll think it the best meal he's ever tasted. Some of us, however, have more discerning palates.

The live streams were legitimately cool and a smart way to raise money. Credit due there.

Every show is filmed - why isn't more free video put online?

What good is a band photographer if all of the pictures she takes are locked behind a paywall?

The camera/cameraphone policy is archaic and childish.

"Great tour book"? So you bought it? Where can you buy it? Online? No. You can't.

In fact you can't get any merch of the current band/lineup/etc.

Also it looks like it was designed by a junior college graphic design student.

But until the above criticisms are addressed and resolved and the fans are treated more like fans -- it's simply not good enough.

He knows that she is not a housekeeper, but he's simply showing which "side" he's in when he said this...

Not all of us base our opinions on a sad cult-like devotion to either Axl or Slash and to imply as much is childish and reductionist.

Do us all a favor and move to North Korea, you seem to prefer despotic totalitarian regimes.

Are you aware of the fact that current management has NOT been managing for "more than a decade"? Your answer was entirely irrelevant to the question.

Really? I wonder what Merck or Azoff would have to say about that.

[rabia]

Who in the current management of GN'R do you consider "largely incompetent" and what evidence do you have for such a claim?

Management is by definition incompetent as it is systemically nepotistic.

Most of the people in charge of important decisions were not professionally trained or educated in the positions that they hold.

But in particular, anyone and everyone responsible for branding, public relations, advertising, content strategy, social networking, and online marketing is unbiasedly incompetent.

And I, unlike anyone within management, am educated in said fields so I'm uniquely qualified to make such claims.

After Team Brazil took over management GN'R seems to have been run a whole lot more professionally than before with more "professional" management, as evidenced by a great new band photographer, successful tours, a stable lineup, lots of interviews, a great tour book, revamped web pages, live streams, even an Axl interview.

Most of the things that you listed here are incredibly basic.

Every garage band knows you need to have an internet presence, take pictures, make videos, etc., etc. yet somehow the importance of these things has evaded one of the biggest bands in rock history for the greater part of a decade.

Give a starving man a piece of bread and he'll think it the best meal he's ever tasted. Some of us, however, have more discerning palates.

The live streams were legitimately cool and a smart way to raise money. Credit due there.

Every show is filmed - why isn't more free video put online?

What good is a band photographer if all of the pictures she takes are locked behind a paywall?

The camera/cameraphone policy is archaic and childish.

"Great tour book"? So you bought it? Where can you buy it? Online? No. You can't.

In fact you can't get any merch of the current band/lineup/etc.

Also it looks like it was designed by a junior college graphic design student.

But until the above criticisms are addressed and resolved and the fans are treated more like fans -- it's simply not good enough.

He knows that she is not a housekeeper, but he's simply showing which "side" he's in when he said this...

Not all of us base our opinions on a sad cult-like devotion to either Axl or Slash and to imply as much is childish and reductionist.

Do us all a favor and move to North Korea, you seem to prefer despotic totalitarian regimes.

Are you aware of the fact that current management has NOT been managing for "more than a decade"? Your answer was entirely irrelevant to the question.

Really? I wonder what Merck or Azoff would have to say about that.

Are you claiming that Beta was the manager during Merck and Azoff's days? Go ahead, show us the evidence on the basis of which you're making that claim.

[SoulMonster]

Who in the current management of GN'R do you consider "largely incompetent" and what evidence do you have for such a claim?

Management is by definition incompetent as it is systemically nepotistic.

The fact that the Lebeis family had previous relations with Axl Rose is not evidence for them being incompetent as managers.

Most of the people in charge of important decisions were not professionally trained or educated in the positions that they hold.

The fact that the Lebeis family is not formally educated music managers is not evidence that they are incompetent.

But in particular, anyone and everyone responsible for branding, public relations, advertising, content strategy, social networking, and online marketing is unbiasedly incompetent.

Are you trying to argue that they are incompetent because they are incompetent? That is circular argumentation.

Every garage band knows you need to have an internet presence, take pictures, make videos, etc., etc. yet somehow the importance of these things has evaded one of the biggest bands in rock history for the greater part of a decade.

Give a starving man a piece of bread and he'll think it the best meal he's ever tasted. Some of us, however, have more discerning palates.

We are not discussing whether things could be better, but your still unsubstantiated claim that GN'R's current management is incompetent. I am still waiting for evidence for that claim.

Edited May 24, 2012 by SoulMonster