True Detective - HBO series [SUPER, INSANELY, LITHIUM-ESQUE, HEAVY SPOILERS. PS: There are spoilers in this thread]

[Sixes]

I actually thought Maggie and/or her family were major players in the cult from the very beginning and now that we're learning more about her, it seems more likely...although that could be yet another red herring

[wasted]

why show Marty just another brutal murder.

Why not show Marty's daughter being abused prior to the closure of the school? That's the only way to motivate his participation in solving the Yellow King mystery. Then again, surely the video would have to depict recent Yellow King activity? Otherwise Marty may maintain they got him.

The show seems to be inspired - in terms of the tiered mystery - to Oliver Stone's JFK.

I think any hard evidence will get Marty on board. Why Rust has the same philosophy as la Doux is beyond me though.

First, who's to say whether that is truly Rust's philosophy. Perhaps he thew that out there to gauge the detectives reaction. Remember he's convinced that the cover-up is wide and deep. It may have been a test.

Second, even if that is Rust's philosophy, it is a rather morally neutral one. If we are all essentially frozen in time, destined to do the same thing over and over again, perhaps Rust's objection to people like Ledoux or the woman he tells to kill herself is that they choose a path that brings eternal misery. To believe that time is a disc (or whatever it is) does not necessarily translate into one becoming evil or doing bad things.

But it means that these things will keep happening over and over again. He says things like there are no answers here. I agree he could just be method acting. Like he said similar things to Marty and he just said you're crazy. He Also said that someone once told me time is a flat circle. That person was la Doux. Who was also quoting for the King in Yellow. About meeting in Carcossa, the black stars will fall.

Rust has a notebook full of pictures of dead kids and yellow king symbols. Everything about Rust screams serial killer.

Time is a flat circle stuff is from the King in Yellow which was a book or play that once read and the terrible truth of existence was revealed sent people insane. In the book after they see it they go crazy and kill their families or something. Once you see that it's just human nature you go crazy and do what you want. Like Beth is one of them. The universe forgives.

The fact that the cops interviewing Rust let him drink means anything he says is inadmissable. Yet they claim to be trying to nail for something. He asks them if they have friends in high places. So it's hard to say which side he falls.

Edited February 26, 2014 by wasted

[downzy]

why show Marty just another brutal murder.

Why not show Marty's daughter being abused prior to the closure of the school? That's the only way to motivate his participation in solving the Yellow King mystery. Then again, surely the video would have to depict recent Yellow King activity? Otherwise Marty may maintain they got him.

The show seems to be inspired - in terms of the tiered mystery - to Oliver Stone's JFK.

I think any hard evidence will get Marty on board. Why Rust has the same philosophy as la Doux is beyond me though.

First, who's to say whether that is truly Rust's philosophy. Perhaps he thew that out there to gauge the detectives reaction. Remember he's convinced that the cover-up is wide and deep. It may have been a test.

Second, even if that is Rust's philosophy, it is a rather morally neutral one. If we are all essentially frozen in time, destined to do the same thing over and over again, perhaps Rust's objection to people like Ledoux or the woman he tells to kill herself is that they choose a path that brings eternal misery. To believe that time is a disc (or whatever it is) does not necessarily translate into one becoming evil or doing bad things.

But it means that these things will keep happening over and over again. He says things like there are no answers here. I agree he could just be method acting. Like he said similar things to Marty and he just said you're crazy. He Also said that someone once told me time is a flat circle. That person was la Doux. Who was also quoting for the King in Yellow. About meeting in Carcossa, the black stars will fall.

Rust has a notebook full of pictures of dead kids and yellow king symbols. Everything about Rust screams serial killer.

Then why does he bother investigating crimes that he was responsible for? Why go to such efforts to try and convince everyone around him that there's a conspiracy that he's a part of? From a narrative standpoint, it makes absolutely no sense.

[Coma16]

^^^ unless he's got split personality (which would be extremely lame)

[Guest NGOG]

Rust is the one character that I'm fairly certain is not part of the Yellow King ring.

[downzy]

I think Forsaken's theory of Rust working for a different agency is the most likely one. Rust strikes me as a principled individual. He's also suffered tremendous loss, with the death of his child and the ending of his marriage. What changed things for Rust in 2002 was two things.

First, his position with the State police was no longer tenable. What he needed to do was being blocked by his chief.

Second, with Marty back to cheating again and risking his family, I think Rust had all he could take with Marty. You see this in the scene where he treats Marty like dirt, commanding him to type the confession/report. The only part that I can't quite figure out is when he tells Maggie that he didn't know about Marty cheating again. That was definitely a lie.

Again, I have serious reservations about any theory that makes either Maggie, Marty, or Rust complicit in the crimes. Unless the show does something dumb, like Coma16's suggestion about split personality, there's little to believe that any of the three main characters will be responsible for either past or present crimes. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

Edited February 26, 2014 by downzy

[Guest NGOG]

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

Ha, just foolin with ya.

[wasted]

why show Marty just another brutal murder.

Why not show Marty's daughter being abused prior to the closure of the school? That's the only way to motivate his participation in solving the Yellow King mystery. Then again, surely the video would have to depict recent Yellow King activity? Otherwise Marty may maintain they got him.

The show seems to be inspired - in terms of the tiered mystery - to Oliver Stone's JFK.

I think any hard evidence will get Marty on board. Why Rust has the same philosophy as la Doux is beyond me though.

First, who's to say whether that is truly Rust's philosophy. Perhaps he thew that out there to gauge the detectives reaction. Remember he's convinced that the cover-up is wide and deep. It may have been a test.

Second, even if that is Rust's philosophy, it is a rather morally neutral one. If we are all essentially frozen in time, destined to do the same thing over and over again, perhaps Rust's objection to people like Ledoux or the woman he tells to kill herself is that they choose a path that brings eternal misery. To believe that time is a disc (or whatever it is) does not necessarily translate into one becoming evil or doing bad things.

But it means that these things will keep happening over and over again. He says things like there are no answers here. I agree he could just be method acting. Like he said similar things to Marty and he just said you're crazy. He Also said that someone once told me time is a flat circle. That person was la Doux. Who was also quoting for the King in Yellow. About meeting in Carcossa, the black stars will fall.

Rust has a notebook full of pictures of dead kids and yellow king symbols. Everything about Rust screams serial killer.

Then why does he bother investigating crimes that he was responsible for? Why go to such efforts to try and convince everyone around him that there's a conspiracy that he's a part of? From a narrative standpoint, it makes absolutely no sense.

Oh bcos he's trying to pin it on someone else, cover his tracks.

He might not be there to investigate but to tidy up. These are murders that have spilled out side of the cult. So he goes around cleaning up. Execute ledoux. Tell these casualties who have lost it after meeting the yellow king to kill themselves. He knew fucking Maggie would destroy Marty. Now he's showing him something and will set him up for some killings. Maybe Maggie will go crazy and hang her own kids. Insanity is what the Yellow King spreads. Maybe Rust is the bagman.

Edited February 26, 2014 by wasted

[downzy]

But it means that these things will keep happening over and over again. He says things like there are no answers here. I agree he could just be method acting. Like he said similar things to Marty and he just said you're crazy. He Also said that someone once told me time is a flat circle. That person was la Doux. Who was also quoting for the King in Yellow. About meeting in Carcossa, the black stars will fall.

Rust has a notebook full of pictures of dead kids and yellow king symbols. Everything about Rust screams serial killer.

Then why does he bother investigating crimes that he was responsible for? Why go to such efforts to try and convince everyone around him that there's a conspiracy that he's a part of? From a narrative standpoint, it makes absolutely no sense.

He might not be there to investigate but to tidy up. These are murders that have spilled out side of the cult. So he goes around cleaning up. Execute ledoux. Tell these casualties who have lost it after meeting the yellow king to kill themselves. He knew fucking Maggie would destroy Marty. Now he's showing him something and will set him up for some killings. Maybe Maggie will go crazy and hang her own kids. Insanity is what the Yellow King spreads. Maybe Rust is the bagman.

Spilled outside of the cult? That would suggest that the murder of Dora Lange was not part of the cult considering it was staged for someone to find her.

Rust doesn't execute Ledoux, Marty does.

You have a very different take on the Rust-Maggie sex scene. First, that happened in 2002. So you're suggesting that Rust has been waiting ten years to setup Marty? Second, Rust's reaction to being told why Maggie wanted to fuck him doesn't support your point. If Rust wanted to destroy Marty, why get angry at Maggie? My take of his anger in that scene is that he felt used. He detested being used to help break up a family, since his was taken away from him. Third, when is Maggie suppose to be doing harm to her children? Since she's being questioned in 2012, I can't see her doing harm to her children previous to her conversation with the cops since the interview would most likely be done in a different setting.

Edited February 26, 2014 by downzy

[wasted]

Ledoux may have got away from the cult. Those things meant to be done behind closed doors. Or was that the symbol that triggered Rust off.

Marty could be part of that.

He could have just been playing along with her expectations. Marty might have been messed up from the beginning like Rust.

I think your explanation makes more sense. I'm looking for how they could twist it at the end. With your way they are driving to a conclusion.

It seems like they will go in to that house find the pic of dead kids. That will be the hard evidence they need to take down the head of that church.

Why they have to show us all these personal problems the two guys have I don't know. Who cares if rust fucks his wife? Why is rust talking all this yellow king jargon. Who cares if Marty fucks hookers?

They just have to be tied to the crimes somehow. Otherwise it's just fuck ups eventually solve a case. They say we meant be shocked by the end of the next ep.

[downzy]

Why they have to show us all these personal problems the two guys have I don't know. Who cares if rust fucks his wife? Why is rust talking all this yellow king jargon. Who cares if Marty fucks hookers?

They just have to be tied to the crimes somehow. Otherwise it's just fuck ups eventually solve a case. They say we meant be shocked by the end of the next ep.

I think they show all that stuff, even if it has nothing to do with the crimes/mystery, because it gets people involved in the characters. This is a character driven show. If we didn't get invested with who these characters are, why they act the way they do, how their relationships affect one another, we'd likely have less concern for the show.

Because Maggie fucks Rust to screw Marty doesn't necessarily mean she's involved in any crime. It explains why the two protagonists had a falling out. Rust wasn't a popular guy around the police department - for a long time it was his partner who vouched for him. But with the relationship souring, it became less and less likely that the partnership between the two detectives could continue. By 2002, it seems to me at least, Rust felt held back by his superiors and spiteful towards his partner, and therefore explains why he left to continue the investigation on his own (or with the help of another department). Without the context of his relationship with Marty and his involvement with Maggie, Rust leaving wouldn't have made much sense and the next part of the show wouldn't have happened.

[Black Sabbath]

There will be a different director next season. Whoever the new director is, he'll have a lot to live up to it seems.

[wasted]

Why they have to show us all these personal problems the two guys have I don't know. Who cares if rust fucks his wife? Why is rust talking all this yellow king jargon. Who cares if Marty fucks hookers?

They just have to be tied to the crimes somehow. Otherwise it's just fuck ups eventually solve a case. They say we meant be shocked by the end of the next ep.

I think they show all that stuff, even if it has nothing to do with the crimes/mystery, because it gets people involved in the characters. This is a character driven show. If we didn't get invested with who these characters are, why they act the way they do, how their relationships affect one another, we'd likely have less concern for the show.

Because Maggie fucks Rust to screw Marty doesn't necessarily mean she's involved in any crime. It explains why the two protagonists had a falling out. Rust wasn't a popular guy around the police department - for a long time it was his partner who vouched for him. But with the relationship souring, it became less and less likely that the partnership between the two detectives could continue. By 2002, it seems to me at least, Rust felt held back by his superiors and spiteful towards his partner, and therefore explains why he left to continue the investigation on his own (or with the help of another department). Without the context of his relationship with Marty and his involvement with Maggie, Rust leaving wouldn't have made much sense and the next part of the show wouldn't have happened.

I don't think the generic story needs explaining. You could guess the story from the opening credits. It's kind of Silence of the Zodiac.

There just seems to be a lot of opportunities to re-tell the with a plot twist. This is what has kept people interested in it. If it turns out they just go and take down the church sex cult expect a shitstorm.

I think there has to be kind of twist. Somebody you don't expect will be involved.

Maybe they will just find another monster take him out but then realise it still continues. Open ended. A bit like how Le Doux was closure for a second.

[wasted]

stories get retold after the fact. All the kill yourself moments get explained. Why are all the witnesses killing themselves. Seems convenient. Suddenly Marty was hypnotised by the Rust the yellow king. Don't get me wrong I hate these kind of endings. When they have basically been lying to you. Maybe like Fight club. It's possibly more like Zodiac. With the devil Yellow king being some constant force that is never truly understood.

Maybe the point is Rust is insane to go to such lengths for something that keeps repeating through history. He might take down some bad guys but ultimately his efforts mean little. So he might kill himself which is what the King in Yellow normally makes happen.

Maybe he shows Marty a similar reality, the truth of reality.

You eat your young as long as there's something to salute. Rust is kind of investigating the whole state or area. Is it enough for Rust to expose the conspiracy from the police up to the politicians. Or is he uncovering unconnected murders or disappearances. All the killings seem to lead back to Wellsprings. Tack on some hocus pocus and that's a wrap?

Narrative closure is fine, it can reinforce the concept of the show. But unless this kind of idea of the hopelessness of human nature comes across at the end. Then they probably failed. It seems hard to believe they would fuck it up that bad.

Edited February 27, 2014 by wasted

[wasted]

There will be a different director next season. Whoever the new director is, he'll have a lot to live up to it seems.

Pizzolatto said

There could be a season thats much more of a widespread conspiracy thriller, a season thats a small‑town murder mystery, a season where nobody is murdered and its a master criminal versus a rogue detective or something. Even the title, True Detective, is meant to be, of course, purposefully somewhat generic the word true can also mean honorable and authentic and things like that. So as long as there is some crime in there, I think the series format can approach it.

Read More: 'True Detective' Season 2: New Details on Next Year's Case | http://screencrush.com/hbo-true-detective-season-2-renewal-nic-pizzolatto-2015/?trackback=tsmclip

Follow Us: Facebook

[wasted]

Also, from one of the earlier episodes in the series:

That's what I mean about the possibility of a re-telling. The veil of True Detective may come down. The Yellow King imagery is all over the place. Beth quotes the Yellow King. Maggie says her and Rust are the same before she turns into an evil bitch.

[Forsaken]

Also, from one of the earlier episodes in the series:

That's what I mean about the possibility of a re-telling. The veil of True Detective may come down. The Yellow King imagery is all over the place. Beth quotes the Yellow King. Maggie says her and Rust are the same before she turns into an evil bitch.

I get you and am starting to lean towards your angle a little bit. I'm expecting something out of the ordinary to happen these final episodes; I don't think it's gonna be a simple whodunit type of thing but something else. Something more complicated. Something open-ended. Watch the teaser for next episode? You have one guy talking about seeing people with animal faces and thinking it was a dream, and a lady saying "Death is not the end, rejoice." It's definitely gonna go more deeper than "Rust is the Yellow King" or "Marty is the Yellow King".

But who knows, my theory may hold up, and if it does, I won't be disappointed.

[wasted]

Also, from one of the earlier episodes in the series:

That's what I mean about the possibility of a re-telling. The veil of True Detective may come down. The Yellow King imagery is all over the place. Beth quotes the Yellow King. Maggie says her and Rust are the same before she turns into an evil bitch.

I get you and am starting to lean towards your angle a little bit. I'm expecting something out of the ordinary to happen these final episodes; I don't think it's gonna be a simple whodunit type of thing but something else. Something more complicated. Something open-ended. Watch the teaser for next episode? You have one guy talking about seeing people with animal faces and thinking it was a dream, and a lady saying "Death is not the end, rejoice." It's definitely gonna go more deeper than "Rust is the Yellow King" or "Marty is the Yellow King".

But who knows, my theory may hold up, and if it does, I won't be disappointed.

It seems unwise to have a mystery and lots of clues and philosophical jargon to then just go for a genre ending. It's whether there is a book, a video or a person that is the yellow king. Like Enter the Void, Noe's Irriversible, Cronenberg's Videodrome where the audience becomes a victim of the art.

Rust or anyone could be the victims of the Yellow King, under it's spell. Just as we are under the spell of the show. We've been told there is no meaning but ceasely look for clues. Rust is obsessed, Marty is getting there, all the woman are turning into whores. People are killing themselves when they come into contact with the Yellow King. All this and are they really going to just go for the Rambo ending?

[Forsaken]

Also, from one of the earlier episodes in the series:

That's what I mean about the possibility of a re-telling. The veil of True Detective may come down. The Yellow King imagery is all over the place. Beth quotes the Yellow King. Maggie says her and Rust are the same before she turns into an evil bitch.

I get you and am starting to lean towards your angle a little bit. I'm expecting something out of the ordinary to happen these final episodes; I don't think it's gonna be a simple whodunit type of thing but something else. Something more complicated. Something open-ended. Watch the teaser for next episode? You have one guy talking about seeing people with animal faces and thinking it was a dream, and a lady saying "Death is not the end, rejoice." It's definitely gonna go more deeper than "Rust is the Yellow King" or "Marty is the Yellow King".

But who knows, my theory may hold up, and if it does, I won't be disappointed.

It seems unwise to have a mystery and lots of clues and philosophical jargon to then just go for a genre ending. It's whether there is a book, a video or a person that is the yellow king. Like Enter the Void, Noe's Irriversible, Cronenberg's Videodrome where the audience becomes a victim of the art.

Rust or anyone could be the victims of the Yellow King, under it's spell. Just as we are under the spell of the show. We've been told there is no meaning but ceasely look for clues. Rust is obsessed, Marty is getting there, all the woman are turning into whores. People are killing themselves when they come into contact with the Yellow King. All this and are they really going to just go for the Rambo ending?

. Rust is obsessed, Marty is getting there, all the woman are turning into whores. People are killing themselves when they come into contact with the Yellow King

I was about to reply with the same line before i'd read that second paragraph. Spot on. Makes complete sense and would be a fantastic ending. My only question is, with an ending like this, how would a season 2 fare with a new cast and plot? Surely the plot couldn't be similar or along the same path, something like we are describing couldn't be repeated again. Which is kind of why i'm partially leaning toward my theory still. But would much much rather prefer this.

[wasted]

Also, from one of the earlier episodes in the series:

That's what I mean about the possibility of a re-telling. The veil of True Detective may come down. The Yellow King imagery is all over the place. Beth quotes the Yellow King. Maggie says her and Rust are the same before she turns into an evil bitch.

I get you and am starting to lean towards your angle a little bit. I'm expecting something out of the ordinary to happen these final episodes; I don't think it's gonna be a simple whodunit type of thing but something else. Something more complicated. Something open-ended. Watch the teaser for next episode? You have one guy talking about seeing people with animal faces and thinking it was a dream, and a lady saying "Death is not the end, rejoice." It's definitely gonna go more deeper than "Rust is the Yellow King" or "Marty is the Yellow King".

But who knows, my theory may hold up, and if it does, I won't be disappointed.

It seems unwise to have a mystery and lots of clues and philosophical jargon to then just go for a genre ending. It's whether there is a book, a video or a person that is the yellow king. Like Enter the Void, Noe's Irriversible, Cronenberg's Videodrome where the audience becomes a victim of the art.

Rust or anyone could be the victims of the Yellow King, under it's spell. Just as we are under the spell of the show. We've been told there is no meaning but ceasely look for clues. Rust is obsessed, Marty is getting there, all the woman are turning into whores. People are killing themselves when they come into contact with the Yellow King. All this and are they really going to just go for the Rambo ending?

. Rust is obsessed, Marty is getting there, all the woman are turning into whores. People are killing themselves when they come into contact with the Yellow King

I was about to reply with the same line before i'd read that second paragraph. Spot on. Makes complete sense and would be a fantastic ending. My only question is, with an ending like this, how would a season 2 fare with a new cast and plot? Surely the plot couldn't be similar or along the same path, something like we are describing couldn't be repeated again. Which is kind of why i'm partially leaning toward my theory still. But would much much rather prefer this.

Pizzolatto said

There could be a season thats much more of a widespread conspiracy thriller, a season thats a small‑town murder mystery, a season where nobody is murdered and its a master criminal versus a rogue detective or something. Even the title, True Detective, is meant to be, of course, purposefully somewhat generic the word true can also mean honorable and authentic and things like that. So as long as there is some crime in there, I think the series format can approach it.

From what Pizzo has said, with McC and Woody not attached for a second season, it's a one off story.

How many more times can Rust take 10 years to research just to find a clue that gives him someway to go at the cult? If anything he took too long. This is another point, what has Rust been doing for 10 years. Marty executing Ladoux really wasn't a smart idea unless you were covering stuff up. They could have learned so much sweating La doux.

The way to go out is like someone said, the JFK conspiracy type thing. We'll never know for sure. Then endless speculation, like the Zodiac killer.

The amount of booze Rust is putting away he probably couldn't take another season. He'll be like 60 with cirrhosis of the liver.

I'm not really sure what the above quote means, maybe once they smash the church cult, what then the killings still keep happening. It could run and run in that way. Rust dies but another detective steps in, maybe a Jodie Foster type, Clare Danes. I'm waiting for Boyd Crowder to turn up. "Where is this holy man? Well let's go see him!"

[Broskirose]

I think it would be absolutely amazing if the next episode ended really ambiguously and then the finale was just 58 minutes of static fuzz.

[wasted]

A Ciccone Youth cover of Addicted to Love plays as credits roll. Then the Alien king arrives by limo.

[Ghostie]

Shit, there's not many movies and shows I can watch multiple times, but this fits the bill. The camera work alone is enough. Things like the shot of the broken taillight at the end of the last episode showing that Rust never bothered fixing it after throwing Marty into it years earlier. Fun stuff!

[wasted]

I watch each ep 3 times. It's kind of filmed like Fincher would.

Edited February 27, 2014 by wasted

[Guest NGOG]

If you consider the 1895 book of short-stories, the Yellow King is a reoccurring theme. On that basis, it's fairly certain that Rust and Marty never reach a position where they can relay their findings (and blow the circle wide open). In my view, Rust and Marty will get tantalizingly close to the Yellow King incarnate, but they will die in doing so. They will see something though - perhaps a number of hooded figures revealing their true identity and looking coy (because Rust and Marty know them - everyone they thought they knew were part of it all along). A powerful still would be a dead Rust and Marty, but they look like they know. As Rust said, you're only truly fulfilled when you learn to let go.

Edited February 27, 2014 by NGOG