True Detective - HBO series [SUPER, INSANELY, LITHIUM-ESQUE, HEAVY SPOILERS. PS: There are spoilers in this thread]

[wasted]

This could be the greatest show ever or the biggest disappointment.

There's two ways to end it badly.

The story isn't really the crime so much as how it all pans out for the characters. There's as much focus on Maggie as anyone, so how are they going to tie the characters to the child ring. Martys dad turned in an ep then never mentioned again.

The writer guy said they aren't trying to trick anyone.

Maybe last ep they will suit up like ep 4 and go take down the bad guys.

Edited February 25, 2014 by wasted

[Black Sabbath]

Was it in Woody's contract to fuck a hot chick almost every other episode?

[Coma16]

Was it in Woody's contract to fuck a hot chick almost every other episode?

I love that chick. She flaunts her booty in Banshee as well

[wasted]

I wonder if Rust paid her to do it.

I kind of get a Fight Club vibe like in the final ep Rust will be Marty's alter ego out killing people while Marty is the tortured family man.

[Forsaken]

I wonder if Rust paid her to do it.

I kind of get a Fight Club vibe like in the final ep Rust will be Marty's alter ego out killing people while Marty is the tortured family man.

What an ultimate swerve this would be, but this surely cannot be the case since detectives are interviewing them as separate individuals and they themselves were partners throughout the years.

Was it in Woody's contract to fuck a hot chick almost every other episode?

Lol seriously, I don't know how he's getting all of this random hot ass all of the time

[downzy]

To share a prediction that could make sense and one that i've partially agreed with the entire time:

My prediction early on was that Rust was dropped in to the CID as a federal undercover agent, brought in to expose police involvement in satanic murders. Rust mentions to the investigating officers at the beginning that there were rumors he was a Fed, and this seems to explain why Quesada would hate him so much because as the major he would have known that his police force was being investigated from within. My prediction has been that the Feds suspected Martin Hart as being part of the conspiracy, and therefore partnered Rust with him so he could get close to his work, and also enmesh himself in Marty’s family life as part of his undercover investigation.

One of the biggest clues on this theory goes back to the interview with Dora Lange’s mother, Rust looks over at a picture of young Dora standing in front of a group of men on horseback wearing black pointed hoods. The picture is so spooky and unusual, and yet Rust doesn’t mention it or ask a single question. To me, this clearly shows he was previously aware of the Cult and how they operate. Either because he was already aware because of information he received in his Fed briefing prior to going in undercover, or because he himself is part of the Cult. The fact that Reggie Ledoux recognized him and seems to know it was his time to die, is another indication that Rust could be the Yellow King.

The scene where he tells the woman to kill herself is chilling, and leaves open the possibility that there will be a twist ending to reveal Rust as the killer, reminiscent of the end of Frailty.

Interesting theory.

I have to agree that the scene with Rust examining the picture of young Dora Lange and the hooded men was very telling. Though, I still have a big problem with the possibility of Rust being part of the cult. Unless he's tracking people down to test them, to ensure fealty, I don't see why he'd put in all the effort? Moreover, there are too many scenes where it's just him and his thoughts, seemingly trying to put the whole puzzle together. Before Maggie comes over to fuck him, we see him using a flashlight to cause antler shadows on the map of dead girls. Unless it's some sort of ritual or cult practice, it strikes me as though he's looking for clues. Why show all of that if it's just to throw off the viewer? It would make no sense to the character's motivations since he's a fictional character, unaware that there's an audience watching him.

I think your first theory is spot on. As I stated a few posts ago, the show is called True Detective. His desire to investigate knows no boundaries and does not require formal authority. He might be a fed, but he might be someone committed to his own need to understand.

Guess we'll see. As much as I have my predictions and my guesses as to how the whole thing will end, I wouldn't be surprised if I was way off.

[wasted]

They often don't write the ending til later and it could go number of ways.

But the big clue to me was Cohle telling the SIDS girl to kill herself. Like someone called to tell that other murderer to kill himself when he said he knew the Yellow King. Plus Rev Tuttle killed himself.

As much as Rust could be hunting the sex ring, he could also just be covering his tracks.

I think though, it will be Rust n Marty reconciliation and Rusty telling him he knows it's that church guy. They'll kidnap torture to get the info. Then Ep 8 will be like Ep 4 an epic gun battle as the boys go in to take down the bad guys. This is tv not some soho art bar. Ass kicking time is coming soon.

[wasted]

Oh, Beth. Woody pulls a face to remember there.

[downzy]

An interesting article on the show:

“True Detective” vs. film noir

http://www.salon.com/2014/02/25/true_detective_vs_film_noir_partner/

Psychology Today recently published in-depth psychological profiles of the two lead characters in True Detective and I realized I was not alone in my interest and fascination with the two detectives. Actually, all the blog posts and rave reviews made that clear enough, but the Psychology Today piece made explicit that the characters are the real drive of the show. On the surface, the show seems fairly straightforward—we’re introduced to characters and plot elements that are staples of the mystery genre, without much obviously apparent deviation. With a closer look, however, I began to notice that some of these conventional elements were being systematically undermined very quietly and patiently, serving to create the growing strain of tension that has finally become the main narrative force of the series.

There are a few reliable character types we can expect to find in a detective drama and the writers of True Detective don’t shy away from any of those; it is a full-fledged genre piece. We’re shown the mismatched partnership of Hart and Cohle; the desk-pounding police chief turning red from yelling; the unwelcome task force who threaten to take the case away; the detective who can’t balance his work and home life; the haunted cop with a dark past; and, of course, the psycho-killer. None of those are new to the genre. True Detective, however, does something really interesting: It slowly erases the distinction between conventional types,.

The last four minutes of the third episode of True Detective consist of Matthew McConaughey delivering a monologue, a tension-building ramp-up to the revealing final shot of the jock-strap-clad, machete-wielding “monster.” The scene functions in a few different ways. First and foremost, it coherently follows the investigation by leading us to the next step — we’ve seen the detectives work up to classifying Reggie Ledoux as the prime suspect. The episode leaves us in suspense, with a prolonged look at the man we have every reason to believe is the killer, and we come away from it with that last haunting frame in mind.

What makes it so compelling, though, is that the words coming out of Detective Rust Cohle’s mouth are words that an audience would readily identify as those of a psychopath. No detective talks like this, no purveyor of justice talks about death so trivially. One can easily imagine these lines being uttered out in a later scene by the deranged lunatic in the police box confounding his interrogators.

Pay attention to what he’s saying and how he says it. The way McConaughey’s delivery runs shorter and shorter of breath, how his voice becomes harsher and more intense as he builds up to his point. Apart from the performance, listen to the music—a slow, pulsing tone that creeps in, intensifying in conjunction with McConaughey’s voice. The montage itself begins by following his narration—we see the photos of dead bodies when he mentions them, we are shown the “unmistakable relief” in their eyes as he claims “they welcomed” their deaths.

Then something strange happens. From one of those grisly photographs, we dissolve into a couple of step-pause shots set in the bar from earlier in the episode. We see Rust dancing with his blind date, who gives a big open-jawed smile, then through another dissolve we see Hart and his wife having a good time, smiling at each other despite the marital issues, holding each other close. Then we dissolve right back to another crime scene photo. (All the while, Cohle has been carving out a creepy little beer-can man he uses to illustrate his point.) Those ten seconds of dancing and joy are way out of place. It has nothing to do with the investigation or the suspect, which is what we’re led to think he’s talking about, and is in obvious contrast to the rest of the montage. The way the information is presented assaults the security of genre expectations.

McConaughey’s performance has garnered a lot of attention from critics, and rightly so, but what I find really captivating is the way in which the filmmakers exploit the inherent tension present in the murder mystery genre. Cohle’s character is presented to us as both a capable, intuitive detective and a psychotic nihilist—in other words, at face-value, the writing identifies him as the hero and the killer in equal parts—and the narrative increasingly intensifies this contradiction.

Consider the ways in which the writing suggests Cohle is someone an audience would typically identify as the story’s psychopath. In episode one, we learn a few things about him. His house, the barren, smoky dry-wall cave he inhabits, goes a long way to alienate him from the conventional idea an audience has of a detective. The tiny mirror on the wall he uses to stare into his eye (one eye at a time) is a nice touch. He carries around a ledger full of notes and details about grisly murders, illustrations of dead bodies, and most recently, occult symbols. Understandably, the viewer may not be thrown off by that, simply because as the story unfolds it justifies these deviations from convention. But that’s exactly my point: the filmmakers use these justifications to the clever purpose of distracting us from what we’re actually seeing. Consider a detective drama where they find the suspect’s basement, alongside a few dead flies and amateur photographs, a big black book full of occult symbols and descriptions of murder would fit the scene quite nicely and would even add a new layer of grotesque to the whole thing. And imagine if he kept his philosophical musings in the same book:

I think human consciousness, is a tragic misstep in evolution. We became too self-aware, nature created an aspect of nature separate from itself, we are creatures that should not exist by natural law. We are things that labor under the illusion of having a self; an accretion of sensory, experience and feeling, programmed with total assurance that we are each somebody, when in fact everybody is nobody. Maybe the honorable thing for our species to do is deny our programming, stop reproducing, walk hand in hand into extinction, one last midnight, brothers and sisters opting out of a raw deal.

That’s no way for our crack detective to be speaking. Granted, cynicism is often attributed to detectives in fiction, from Philip Marlowe to Jake Gittes to Jimmy McNulty. Vacant stares and a healthy dose of misanthropy are not surprising finds. After all, they’ve seen horror and death and been so close to the darkest souls imaginable that it only makes sense for them to be off. In Cohle’s case, however, he’s got the darkest soul in any room he steps into, even in Ledoux’s compound. In the latest episode, Dewall, Ledoux’s cooking partner is put off by Cohle, telling him: “I can see your soul at the edges of your eyes. It’s corrosive, like acid…you got a demon, little man.”

Why is it that the bad guys are more spooked by Cohle than he is by them?

In episode two we learn Cohle suffers from chemically induced hallucinations from his days as an undercover narcotics agent. He loses his grip with reality. The visions we are shown include blurred light trails, scored with a pulsing, grinding electronic track. The light trails and pulsing music give a creeping sense of dread, it pulls us down into his psychosis, into the hellish subjective reality we can observe Cohle reacting to. He’s on his way to see a prostitute, to whom he goes on to say: “I’m police, I can do terrible things with impunity.”

As we’ve been taught by a century of detective fiction, prostitutes are a favorite for psycho-killers, and here we are with Detective Cohle watching him buy drugs and indirectly threaten one in a seedy motel room. The writers cleverly make this a key point in the investigation (his being tipped off about the bunny ranch) therefore turning our attention from what we’re actually seeing. Another vision we get is the flock of birds that morphs into the spiral we saw tattooed tattooed on the victim’s back, which the viewer now understands to be the killer’s trademark. The spiral from the crime scene and Cohle’s most intimate revelations are connected, entwined gracefully in a swirl of birds. The subjective forays into Cohle’s visions are linked with the mind of the killer in an observable way—we now identify that spiral with both the killer’s trademark and Cohle’s imbalance. That identification is key to our interest in Cohle as a protagonist and to elevating the tension in the show.

In episode four, we see Cohle as a bad guy in full regalia. He loses the shirt and tie for a leather vest and boots, he straps a belt around his arm and slides a needle into his vein, he takes lots and lots of drugs, and he joins the Iron Crusader biker gang in their heist operation. Okay, so all of these things are done in the pretense of furthering the investigation (more narrative justification) and it’s not the first time we’ve seen a cop go rogue, but given the previous indications, this episode furthers the impression that the information we’re receiving contradicts our understanding and expectations of the narrative. Inexplicably, in a detail that is not justified by the story, Cohle is the only crew member not dressed like a cop, further instigating the repeated motif of separating Cohle from images associated with his role as police. The dress-up aspect doesn’t make sense anyway, the bikers have long beards! Uniformed cops don’t look like that, this wouldn’t fool anyone (and didn’t for long). The whole scenario seems to serve the single function of explicitly showing us the discrepancies between what we see and what we think we know.

As of episode five, the show has forked into two narrative avenues: the investigation into Cohle as a suspect in the killings and Cohle’s personal investigation of what he discovered in 2002. The codes and indications in developing Cohle’s character aren’t just adding color; they have created a definite tension and pressure between parallel stories. The suspense derives from two perspectives and we, the audience, know that one of those avenues has to be a narrative misdirect—but which is it?

What we’re shown results in a complex relationship between the audience and Cohle. Spurred on by these impressionist techniques, i.e. toggling between objective reality and subjective delusions, we identify (and in effect, sympathize) with the character whose subjective reality is shared with us. By seeing Cohle’s visions with him, by experiencing the hallucinations and feeling the pulsating sounds, as opposed to merely hearing about them, we grow closer to him, we trust him since these aren’t ramblings but as observable and real to us as to him. We the audience can trust him (and Hart) because as he lies to the detectives about the firefight with Ledoux, we see the objective reality. The writers have covered both grounds here, subjective and objective, to ensure our trust in Cohle.

This is where the tension is coiled and what the pressure builds upon: our foundational trust and interest in our protagonist’s goals are in conflict with the information we receive from the narrative surface.

This all comes around when he goes from sounding like a psychopath to directly quoting one. In episode five, Cohle says: “Someone once told me time is a flat circle.” That someone, of course, is Reggie Ledoux, who said the same thing only about five minutes of screen time before we hear Cohle repeat it. What makes Rust Cohle so interesting is the tension created precisely by this relationship his character’s attributes have with that of the bonafide psychopath—whose death is another significant deviation from the norm. Usually, we can expect stories like this to really milk that psycho character, give him plenty of screen time to get under our skin (think Se7en or Silence of the Lambs), but this show resists that, leaving us only Rust Cohle’s and his beer-can men. Pizzolatto and company have done an excellent job coiling up the tension which has now become the force of the show, and they’ve done so in what is clearly a systematic way, subverting some of the tendencies we’ve learned to expect from this genre.

So which is it? Are all of these indications simply clues given from the get-go that this guy is trouble—or are they given only in favor of the fantastic narrative tension created between the two possible outcomes? Given the writers’ penchant to derail expectations, that question is impossible to answer. That’s not for me to speculate on, anyway. I’ll leave the investigating up to the True Detectives.

[Guest NGOG]

To share a prediction that could make sense and one that i've partially agreed with the entire time:

My prediction early on was that Rust was dropped in to the CID as a federal undercover agent, brought in to expose police involvement in satanic murders. Rust mentions to the investigating officers at the beginning that there were rumors he was a Fed, and this seems to explain why Quesada would hate him so much because as the major he would have known that his police force was being investigated from within. My prediction has been that the Feds suspected Martin Hart as being part of the conspiracy, and therefore partnered Rust with him so he could get close to his work, and also enmesh himself in Marty’s family life as part of his undercover investigation.

One of the biggest clues on this theory goes back to the interview with Dora Lange’s mother, Rust looks over at a picture of young Dora standing in front of a group of men on horseback wearing black pointed hoods. The picture is so spooky and unusual, and yet Rust doesn’t mention it or ask a single question. To me, this clearly shows he was previously aware of the Cult and how they operate. Either because he was already aware because of information he received in his Fed briefing prior to going in undercover, or because he himself is part of the Cult. The fact that Reggie Ledoux recognized him and seems to know it was his time to die, is another indication that Rust could be the Yellow King.

The scene where he tells the woman to kill herself is chilling, and leaves open the possibility that there will be a twist ending to reveal Rust as the killer, reminiscent of the end of Frailty.

Don't see the plausibility in that at all.

If Rust is the Yellow King, why didn't Kelly immediately react to his presence? What traits does he have that are similar with a "Giant"? In my opinion, Rust is a man of tremendous conviction, that was why he told the woman to kill herself, not because of sadism. If Rust is the Yellow King - and McConaughey will not be part of subsequent series - where does the series go after season 1? Will he die, and therefore subsequent officers will have to uncover his dirty secrets?

As we've seen, when Rust goes undercover, he immerses himself in the lifestyle of the targets. As well as being whacked out through a lifetime of hard drugs, Reggie may have just recognized him from his time undercover (which given Rust's tendency to immerse himself, he probably forgets himself).

Then again, in relation to my first point, perhaps Rust takes on another form while abusing innocents - hence Kelly taking time to recognize him as the Yellow King. However, given that the department currently suspect Rust, surely there'll be another change of suspect? It would be strange if they spent 3 to 4 episodes trying to nail Rust (given that to date, we've constantly been shifting between possible Yellow Kings).

Final point - I'm extremely invested in the character of Rust. I really admire what currently comes across an impenetrable sense of conviction. As a viewer, I feel myself wanting him to be vindicated.

Edited February 26, 2014 by NGOG

[Guest NGOG]

Still having a stream of consciousness about this programme, which is a testament to how good it is. Was anybody else taken aback by Rust's treatment of Marty's ex-wife? Given his ability to read a situation, he knew she wanted to take revenge against Marty by fucking him (prior to obliging her advances). But he allowed the situation to develop anyway.

Why therefore, did he become so irate when she expressed remorse? Was it the rejection? Is he afraid of losing anything he commits to in an intimate way?

[Coma16]

Still having a stream of consciousness about this programme, which is a testament to how good it is. Was anybody else taken aback by Rust's treatment of Marty's ex-wife? Given his ability to read a situation, he knew she wanted to take revenge against Marty by fucking him (prior to obliging her advances). But he allowed the situation to develop anyway.

Why therefore, did he become so irate when she expressed remorse? Was it the rejection? Is he afraid of losing anything he commits to in an intimate way?

She got the better if him. Caught him in a moment if weakness and she is pretty hot. He was more pissed at himself I reckon.

[Guest NGOG]

Still having a stream of consciousness about this programme, which is a testament to how good it is. Was anybody else taken aback by Rust's treatment of Marty's ex-wife? Given his ability to read a situation, he knew she wanted to take revenge against Marty by fucking him (prior to obliging her advances). But he allowed the situation to develop anyway.

Why therefore, did he become so irate when she expressed remorse? Was it the rejection? Is he afraid of losing anything he commits to in an intimate way?

She got the better if him. Caught him in a moment if weakness and she is pretty hot. He was more pissed at himself I reckon.

Why was he weak at that point?

[Guest NGOG]

Something else I observed in the last episode - that should give any of you who haven't seen it enough time to stop reading - Maggie revealed during her interview that Marty briefly found god. That's something you have to question. What did that period of faith entail?

Why did Audrey draw such explicit images, and why does her hatred of her father seemingly go beyond teenage hormones?

Why is he so possessive of his mistresses? Remember, the original theory was that Dora Lange, a prostitute, was being punished. Perhaps she had the "tenacity" to offer her services to somebody other than Marty. Maybe that's why he subsequently maintained relationships with "real" women as opposed to using prostitutes.

Edited February 26, 2014 by NGOG

[Guest NGOG]

I just found an article with similar thoughts to myself: http://www.bustle.com/articles/16099-true-detective-killer-theory-marty-is-not-so-innocent

And the teaser for E7, holy shit, I've just had my theories blown away: http://www.ibtimes.com/true-detective-season-1-spoilers-episode-7-promo-video-teases-horrifying-clues-after-youve-gone

Edited February 26, 2014 by NGOG

[wasted]

It takes a bad man to catch a bad guy.

I think the narrative drives are irrelevant. What the show is saying is Time is a flat circle. Human nature repeats itself. Child abuse has and always will happen. It's human nature. It's also human nature for us to look for meaning. Just like we look for clues in the show. Even if they find the conspiracy in the church. It will be part of a vast cover up involving police, politicians. But it's really just human nature. The King in Yellow.

If you notice the yellow king symbolism is everywhere. In Martys house there was a spiral.

To me it's just whether there is a knowing conspiracy to say ruin Martys life. Or is it more like an unexplainable Yellow King virus that gets them all.

Rust seems to get that Time is a flat circle, he's virtually preaching it. So why would he continue to fight the good fight? Answer is he wouldn't, we just think he is because of genre conventions.

I think either way it goes the conclusion is the same. Everyone is flawed, corrupt, capable of evil and don't really exist. We exist as human nature which is out of our hands. Rust might think he's fighting the good fight but when he's raw dogging Martys wife in his kitchen or telling SIDS girl to kill her self he's no better, implicit nevertheless.

[downzy]

I can just see Wasted drawing out the equation, circle = time for an hour after every episode.

I just found an article with similar thoughts to myself: http://www.bustle.com/articles/16099-true-detective-killer-theory-marty-is-not-so-innocent

And the teaser for E7, holy shit, I've just had my theories blown away: http://www.ibtimes.com/true-detective-season-1-spoilers-episode-7-promo-video-teases-horrifying-clues-after-youve-gone

I'm really interested to see the video Rust shows Martin. It's looking like EP7 will be a big episode. I still have a hard time that either Rust or Martin is the mastermind in all of this. Martin seems too clumsy to be able to cover anything up what Rust is alleging. And Rust seems to be working way to hard to uncover and expose what's going on to be involved in any serious way. Could be wrong, but will be disappointed if either prove to be implicit in the crimes they are supposedly investigating.

Damn you True Detective for not being on Netflix! Hate waiting a week.

Edited February 26, 2014 by downzy

[downzy]

I just noticed that they're updating the imdb page with every episode. Previous to the airing of the most recent episode, Shea Whigham (Joel Theriot, the preacher) was only listed for one episode. Now he's credited for two episodes. Which leads me to believe that we might see Clarke Peters (black preacher, believe he was in the first episode) again. He's a rather well-known actor to only have two minutes of screen time. Right now he's listed as begin included in only one episode. But that may change.

Edited February 26, 2014 by downzy

[Coma16]

I just noticed that they're updating the imdb page with every episode. Previous to the airing of the most recent episode, Shea Whigham (Joel Theriot, the preacher) was only listed for one episode. Now he's credited for two episodes. Which leads me to believe that we might see Clarke Peters (black preacher, believe he was in the first episode) again. He's a rather well-known actor to only have two minutes of screen time. Right now he's listed as begin included in only one episode. But that may change.

That's Morgan Freeman right I'm pretty positive he's got something to do with the crimes (no, not because he's black).

[Forsaken]

It's really taking a turn, i've expecting a huge swerve for an ending

[wasted]

I've pinned pic of Cohle to my wall and have surrounded it with pics of Lili Simmons. CD II is postponed.

I think the vid will be Marty doing something bad. I reckon Marty's kids went to that Tuttle school.

Edited February 26, 2014 by wasted

[downzy]

I just noticed that they're updating the imdb page with every episode. Previous to the airing of the most recent episode, Shea Whigham (Joel Theriot, the preacher) was only listed for one episode. Now he's credited for two episodes. Which leads me to believe that we might see Clarke Peters (black preacher, believe he was in the first episode) again. He's a rather well-known actor to only have two minutes of screen time. Right now he's listed as begin included in only one episode. But that may change.

That's Morgan Freeman right I'm pretty positive he's got something to do with the crimes (no, not because he's black).

LOL. I think he's involved, but unlike you, only because he's black

I've pinned pic of Cohle to my wall and have surrounded it with pics of Lili Simmons. CD II is postponed.

I think the vid will be Marty doing something bad. I reckon Marty's kids went to that Tuttle school.

That could be a good guess. I'm more inclined to believe he's watching something heinous happening (like a brutal murder or sexual assault), but it doesn't necessarily involve a family member. If something were to be happening to his family in that video, I would expect him to be more upset and livid than this clip reveals. The way he says, "God" after yelling no, it's more of a "too much to watch" kind of reaction than a "I'm going to kill whoever did this to my family" kind of thing. Then again, as I've said many times, I could be way off on this.

[Guest NGOG]

That could be a good guess. I'm more inclined to believe he's watching something heinous happening (like a brutal murder or sexual assault), but it doesn't necessarily involve a family member. If something were to be happening to his family in that video, I would expect him to be more upset and livid than this clip reveals. The way he says, "God" after yelling no, it's more of a "too much to watch" kind of reaction than a "I'm going to kill whoever did this to my family" kind of thing. Then again, as I've said many times, I could be way off on this.

Then again, there's a quality of despair. And I'd imagine that's the type of tone you'd take if problems were right under your nose and you ignored it.

[Coma16]

That could be a good guess. I'm more inclined to believe he's watching something heinous happening (like a brutal murder or sexual assault), but it doesn't necessarily involve a family member. If something were to be happening to his family in that video, I would expect him to be more upset and livid than this clip reveals. The way he says, "God" after yelling no, it's more of a "too much to watch" kind of reaction than a "I'm going to kill whoever did this to my family" kind of thing. Then again, as I've said many times, I could be way off on this.

Then again, there's a quality of despair. And I'd imagine that's the type of tone you'd take if problems were right under your nose and you ignored it.

I think it has something to do with his daughter(s).

[wasted]

why show Marty just another brutal murder. Maybe it's more of a held hostage in house or killed Maggie or Beth.