The Sandman Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 Salmond extending the vote to 16 year olds is also bizarre - at that age, how can you truthfully make decisions about things you have no experience of? Hoping that they'll all sway for "loyalty and patriotism" and for a joyless future of Irn Bru and deep friend Mars Bars in their concrete jungles? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Posted September 11, 2014 Author Share Posted September 11, 2014 I would argue, but you wouldn't read it and then mention the same stuff again on the next page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sandman Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 Serious question: how will you feel if the split doesn't occur? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Posted September 11, 2014 Author Share Posted September 11, 2014 Disappointed, but not devastated. I think the tide's been irreversibly set in motion now (actually, since the day Margaret Thatcher arrived in Downing Street) and even if full independence doesn't manifest this time around, Scotland is only going to become more autonomous. Particularly when the older, more unionist generation start to die off and the younger generations become consistently more divorced with "Britishness" as distinct Scottish institutions shape their lives more and more.I don't want Scotland to be independent just for the sake of it, I want it because I genuinely think that the decisions regarding Scotland's future (including defence, foreign policy and taxation <which is the ultimate key to the eradication of poverty and "class">) are better being made by the people here where there is a general consensus towards a certain type of governance than diluted among an electorate almost 12 times larger where there is much more of a binary "left/right" split and far less of a chance that we'll get a government who cares about us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 It's nice having Scotland as part of the...collective but look, it's their land, they want Independence, God love em, i don't begrudge any man his right to be free and self govern, it's up to them and if they wanna be seperate then they should be allowed to be so and moreover, helped along the way for as far as they want to be helped, whatever else exists between Anglo-Scotish relations a lot of good men and women served the name of Great Britain very well and that should be remembered and respected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgy Zhukov Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 Maybe Wales can be independent too? I don't think they would be missed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sandman Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 http://www.buzzfeed.com/tomphillips/the-siege-of-balamory#48akxfzIs brilliant. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Everything is officially, 'Westminster scaremongering'. History, 'Westminster scaremongering'. Companies fleeing south? 'Westminster scaremongering'. I just made a sandwich and that sandwich was, Westminster scaremongering - it was not a Haggis sandwich by the way. Haggis is well and truly off the menu these days! Such is the way the Salmond, Scotland's answer to George Washington - granted, a Washington with a penchant for fish suppers - is running his campaign. Incidentally, is there anything more smug and patronising than listening to the SNP speak? That Sturgeon (there is a definite 'fish' theme running in SNP circles). Horrendous left wing voices talking about oil and coal mines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Maybe Wales can be independent too? I don't think they would be missed. Wales is great. Shirley Bassey, Katherine Jenkins: I would not mind having a bit of an 'union' with her - I would certainly vote 'yes' on that referendum. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sandman Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake-Pit Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 (edited) What if Scotland votes yes, goes it alone with their £ (like Ireland did pre Euro) then needs a bail out?What if Scotland votes yes, goes it alone with their £ then qualify/transfers to the Euro then needs a bail out? (Like Ireland).What if, because of the UK's close ties with a Scotland that voted yes and went it alone and now needs a bail out, gives more to Scotland than it gave to Greece when they needed their bail out (like Ireland)? Edited September 12, 2014 by Snake-Pit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 What if Scotland votes yes, goes it alone with their £ and after a while (like Ireland did pre Euro) then needs a bail out?What if Scotland votes yes, goes it alone with their £ then qualify/transfers to the Euro then needs a bail out? (Like Ireland).What if, because of the UK's close ties with a Scotland that voted yes and went it alone and now needs a bail out, gives more to Scotland than it gave to Greece when they needed their bail out (like Ireland)?So Ireland went it alone from the UK with the Euro then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake-Pit Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 (edited) I don't suffer from amnesia and am not a goldfish - I remember Irish money, the 'punt' which used the same symbol '£' for their coins and notes - Their economy,If Ireland can have the punt pre Euro, then Scotland can have the same sort of deal.If we're going to do this then we're going to have to look back to Ireland for all of our answers - minus the bloodshed. Edited September 12, 2014 by Snake-Pit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake-Pit Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 (edited) How annoying would it be if no won and all the Scottish separatists started acting like Quebec from now on and every couple of decades or so, would always vote but always lose, and it'll be one of those things to watch on TV or Google when I'm old and grey, then who knows, maybe when I'm dead in the future, skeleton in coffin under 6ft of dirt do they finally get independence...That would p*ss me off. Edited September 12, 2014 by Snake-Pit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxlisOld Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 This is the internet, you don't have to f*cking censor yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luciusfunk Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Posted September 13, 2014 Author Share Posted September 13, 2014 I love this one, 70 MPs come north from London to campaign for a no vote. This welcomed them as soon as they got out of Glasgow Central. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 A lot of hatred is being stored up for the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Posted September 13, 2014 Author Share Posted September 13, 2014 I think it was mischief rather than hatred... I mean, you think that people in Scotland lie awake at night wondering if the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards will continue rather than if their hard-earned taxes are providing the best opportunities for their kids through school and university education or if they'll get universal, free-at-point-of-use access to the healthcare they and their loved ones need, or why despite having two university degrees they're stuck in a minimum-wage job without any tangible prospect of improvement... You'll forgive me for surmising that you don't really know what people up here are actually thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 I think it was mischief rather than hatred... I mean, you think that people in Scotland lie awake at night wondering if the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards will continue rather than if their hard-earned taxes are providing the best opportunities for their kids through school and university education or if they'll get universal, free-at-point-of-use access to the healthcare they and their loved ones need, or why despite having two university degrees they're stuck in a minimum-wage job without any tangible prospect of improvement... You'll forgive me for surmising that you don't really know what people up here are actually thinking.Prerogative of the Scottish government since devolution - wasn't it the SNP who cut university funding? hmm?Best bring in those Dragoons to sort things out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 Graeme, allow me to say a few things which we can agree on.- This is a, to quote Wellington, a 'close run thing'. If the Yes wins, it will by 55%, if the No Wins, it will by 55%. So, in other words - whatever happens - Scotland will be divided.It is a dark future, whatever happens. And the economy is obviously going to go tits up for a period - I do not know how the SNP can refute this point any longer? When the SNP say, 'there will be challanges ahead', they are getting much closer to the truth. So, Scotland gains independence: you have, slightly less than 50% who disagree with that decision with an useless economy for a period!This is all fact.PSThe Royal Scots Dragoon Guards presumably consists of, circa, over one thousand jobs considering they are a cavalry regiment! It is curiously how the SNP and their supporters suddenly cease to be, socialists, when it comes to positions in the military! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Posted September 13, 2014 Author Share Posted September 13, 2014 I was referring to the preservation of the current arrangement regarding the Scottish Government's paying of tuition fees rather than funding for research. The problem lies not so much with the Scottish Government's jurisdiction to decide policy, but rather with funding. At the moment Scotland pays all tax revenue to Westminster and the Scottish Government decides how much it gets back. If the next government in Westminster is a party committed to further cuts in public spending (i.e. any of them) then in all likelihood Scotland's budget will shrink and those public services which Scottish voters -really REALLY- care about will find themselves starved of funds.Also, you seem to have me confused for a member of the Scottish National Party, or a subscriber to Alex Salmond's cult of personality. I am neither. The Yes campaign roughly encompasses about 50% of Scottish society at the moment, the SNP's membership is 25,000. My own views lie closer to the Scottish Green Party, also campaigning for independence.I agree with you about it being a close-run thing. Losing will be tough for either side, but whatever happens now, maintenance of the status quo is impossible, you're not going to be able to put this thing in a box on the 19th. Also, if you make all your decisions from the point of view of economics, you'd end up being a pretty miserable, unfulfilled person. For example, if you were living your life from an economist's point of view with a view towards the highest rates of productivity then you would never take holidays. You would never leave your parents' house, because why would you take the risk of going out on your own and isolating your income when you could be in a house with three incomes? Important as it is, and it will be hard work, there's more to life than economics and this is as much a socio-political debate as an economic one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 I was referring to the preservation of the current arrangement regarding the Scottish Government's paying of tuition fees rather than funding for research. The problem lies not so much with the Scottish Government's jurisdiction to decide policy, but rather with funding. At the moment Scotland pays all tax revenue to Westminster and the Scottish Government decides how much it gets back. If the next government in Westminster is a party committed to further cuts in public spending (i.e. any of them) then in all likelihood Scotland's budget will shrink and those public services which Scottish voters -really REALLY- care about will find themselves starved of funds.Also, you seem to have me confused for a member of the Scottish National Party, or a subscriber to Alex Salmond's cult of personality. I am neither. The Yes campaign roughly encompasses about 50% of Scottish society at the moment, the SNP's membership is 25,000. My own views lie closer to the Scottish Green Party, also campaigning for independence.I agree with you about it being a close-run thing. Losing will be tough for either side, but whatever happens now, maintenance of the status quo is impossible, you're not going to be able to put this thing in a box on the 19th. Also, if you make all your decisions from the point of view of economics, you'd end up being a pretty miserable, unfulfilled person. For example, if you were living your life from an economist's point of view with a view towards the highest rates of productivity then you would never take holidays. You would never leave your parents' house, because why would you take the risk of going out on your own and isolating your income when you could be in a house with three incomes? Important as it is, and it will be hard work, there's more to life than economics and this is as much a socio-political debate as an economic one.You are wanting to become, Scandinavia, yet, Scandinavians are perhaps the most heavily taxed people on the planet - they pay dearly for that social infrastructure. Now, is an Independent government going to increase taxation to pay for this? Food banks? Bills? The now - poor old them - jobless, Dragoon Guards?By the sounds of it devolved government has made a hash of things already!Also, the thing about this 'not being a vote for Salmond' is absolute hokum. Trust me: vote yes and this guy, is, your new PM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GivenToFly Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 Also, if you make all your decisions from the point of view of economics, you'd end up being a pretty miserable, unfulfilled person. For example, if you were living your life from an economist's point of view with a view towards the highest rates of productivity then you would never take holidays. You would never leave your parents' house, because why would you take the risk of going out on your own and isolating your income when you could be in a house with three incomes? Important as it is, and it will be hard work, there's more to life than economics and this is as much a socio-political debate as an economic one.That is absolutely not true. One of the main building blocks of economics is utility maximisation under constraints. You don't like work, you want to do as little of it as possible, but you also like the things you buy with money. So you have to work as much as possible. Economic analysis studies the way decisions are made in this type of situation. Nobody will tell you you are irrational if you don't work all the time. You are irrational if the money you make is worth more to you than the work you might put in and yet you don't work. O the opposite.Off topic, I know, but I couldn't let that slide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sandman Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 All those 16 year olds voting so that they can pay university fees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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