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The Scottish Independence Referendum Thread


Graeme

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I'll admit to not knowing much about the SNP, but I agree that Labour was a nightmare when it came to the right to privacy. In the last election, I was stupid enough to believe that the Lib Dems were sensible (on this issue and others), which is a lesson learned.

Can somebody please explain to me what the Lib Dems have done that's sooooooooooo bad? I mean as far as I can see the worst that can be levelled at them is that they've not really done a lot and delivered on all their election promises. I mean duh! As the minority partner in a COALITION what do people really expect?
Betrayed everyone: see everything they used to believe in and university fees etc.
Well were they really at fault for the fees or was it simply a Tory policy pushed through because they were the majority partner?
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I'll admit to not knowing much about the SNP, but I agree that Labour was a nightmare when it came to the right to privacy. In the last election, I was stupid enough to believe that the Lib Dems were sensible (on this issue and others), which is a lesson learned.

Can somebody please explain to me what the Lib Dems have done that's sooooooooooo bad? I mean as far as I can see the worst that can be levelled at them is that they've not really done a lot and delivered on all their election promises. I mean duh! As the minority partner in a COALITION what do people really expect?
Betrayed everyone: see everything they used to believe in and university fees etc.
Well were they really at fault for the fees or was it simply a Tory policy pushed through because they were the majority partner?

Thats the point they're trying to make, they didn't utilise their minority standing to any particular effect.

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I'll admit to not knowing much about the SNP, but I agree that Labour was a nightmare when it came to the right to privacy. In the last election, I was stupid enough to believe that the Lib Dems were sensible (on this issue and others), which is a lesson learned.

Can somebody please explain to me what the Lib Dems have done that's sooooooooooo bad? I mean as far as I can see the worst that can be levelled at them is that they've not really done a lot and delivered on all their election promises. I mean duh! As the minority partner in a COALITION what do people really expect?
Betrayed everyone: see everything they used to believe in and university fees etc.
Well were they really at fault for the fees or was it simply a Tory policy pushed through because they were the majority partner?

Thats the point they're trying to make, they didn't utilise their minority standing to any particular effect.
I'm just asking how much leverage they could ever really have.
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I'll admit to not knowing much about the SNP, but I agree that Labour was a nightmare when it came to the right to privacy. In the last election, I was stupid enough to believe that the Lib Dems were sensible (on this issue and others), which is a lesson learned.

Can somebody please explain to me what the Lib Dems have done that's sooooooooooo bad? I mean as far as I can see the worst that can be levelled at them is that they've not really done a lot and delivered on all their election promises. I mean duh! As the minority partner in a COALITION what do people really expect?
Betrayed everyone: see everything they used to believe in and university fees etc.
Well were they really at fault for the fees or was it simply a Tory policy pushed through because they were the majority partner?

Thats the point they're trying to make, they didn't utilise their minority standing to any particular effect.
I'm just asking how much leverage they could ever really have.

Not much but then not much is better than nothing and for all the good they did with their not much it might as well've been nothing.

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I'll admit to not knowing much about the SNP, but I agree that Labour was a nightmare when it came to the right to privacy. In the last election, I was stupid enough to believe that the Lib Dems were sensible (on this issue and others), which is a lesson learned.

Can somebody please explain to me what the Lib Dems have done that's sooooooooooo bad? I mean as far as I can see the worst that can be levelled at them is that they've not really done a lot and delivered on all their election promises. I mean duh! As the minority partner in a COALITION what do people really expect?
Betrayed everyone: see everything they used to believe in and university fees etc.
Well were they really at fault for the fees or was it simply a Tory policy pushed through because they were the majority partner?

Thats the point they're trying to make, they didn't utilise their minority standing to any particular effect.
I'm just asking how much leverage they could ever really have.

That's always the question with minority partners in any coalition. There is leverage but it's got to be used strategically. Pick fights constantly and before you know it, it's back to the polls and there's no guarantee you'll be back in power.

Edited by ADPT
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I'll admit to not knowing much about the SNP, but I agree that Labour was a nightmare when it came to the right to privacy. In the last election, I was stupid enough to believe that the Lib Dems were sensible (on this issue and others), which is a lesson learned.

Can somebody please explain to me what the Lib Dems have done that's sooooooooooo bad? I mean as far as I can see the worst that can be levelled at them is that they've not really done a lot and delivered on all their election promises. I mean duh! As the minority partner in a COALITION what do people really expect?
Betrayed everyone: see everything they used to believe in and university fees etc.
Well were they really at fault for the fees or was it simply a Tory policy pushed through because they were the majority partner?

Thats the point they're trying to make, they didn't utilise their minority standing to any particular effect.
I'm just asking how much leverage they could ever really have.

That's always the question with minority partners in any coalition. There is leverage but it's got to be used strategically.. Pick fights constantly and before you know it, it's back to the polls and there's no guarantee you'll be back in power.

And its instances like that where a statesman truly shows his worth.

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I'll admit to not knowing much about the SNP, but I agree that Labour was a nightmare when it came to the right to privacy. In the last election, I was stupid enough to believe that the Lib Dems were sensible (on this issue and others), which is a lesson learned.

Can somebody please explain to me what the Lib Dems have done that's sooooooooooo bad? I mean as far as I can see the worst that can be levelled at them is that they've not really done a lot and delivered on all their election promises. I mean duh! As the minority partner in a COALITION what do people really expect?
Betrayed everyone: see everything they used to believe in and university fees etc.
Well were they really at fault for the fees or was it simply a Tory policy pushed through because they were the majority partner?

Thats the point they're trying to make, they didn't utilise their minority standing to any particular effect.
I'm just asking how much leverage they could ever really have.

That's always the question with minority partners in any coalition. There is leverage but it's got to be used strategically.. Pick fights constantly and before you know it, it's back to the polls and there's no guarantee you'll be back in power.

And its instances like that where a statesman truly shows his worth.

If there's one thing Clegg's never struck me as, it's a statesman. None of the current crop do.

Edited by ADPT
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I'll admit to not knowing much about the SNP, but I agree that Labour was a nightmare when it came to the right to privacy. In the last election, I was stupid enough to believe that the Lib Dems were sensible (on this issue and others), which is a lesson learned.

Can somebody please explain to me what the Lib Dems have done that's sooooooooooo bad? I mean as far as I can see the worst that can be levelled at them is that they've not really done a lot and delivered on all their election promises. I mean duh! As the minority partner in a COALITION what do people really expect?
Betrayed everyone: see everything they used to believe in and university fees etc.
Well were they really at fault for the fees or was it simply a Tory policy pushed through because they were the majority partner?

Thats the point they're trying to make, they didn't utilise their minority standing to any particular effect.
I'm just asking how much leverage they could ever really have.

That's always the question with minority partners in any coalition. There is leverage but it's got to be used strategically.. Pick fights constantly and before you know it, it's back to the polls and there's no guarantee you'll be back in power.
And its instances like that where a statesman truly shows his worth.
Cobblers! :lol:
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I'll admit to not knowing much about the SNP, but I agree that Labour was a nightmare when it came to the right to privacy. In the last election, I was stupid enough to believe that the Lib Dems were sensible (on this issue and others), which is a lesson learned.

Can somebody please explain to me what the Lib Dems have done that's sooooooooooo bad? I mean as far as I can see the worst that can be levelled at them is that they've not really done a lot and delivered on all their election promises. I mean duh! As the minority partner in a COALITION what do people really expect?

They've been good little supporters of the Tory Party, even on matters that they are supposed to be completely opposed to, ideologically speaking. It's easy to act like the good guys before an election - the party standing for fairness and equality and the right to privacy etc. Yet, when they were finally given the tiniest bit of power they were ready and willing to bend over and support measures like the "bedroom tax", the retrospective law change on workfare, all the botched projects of IDS, the rise in tuition fees, more privitisation, and so on.

Now that there's another election coming up they're changing their tune again. They know they've messed up. They could have done more with the little bit of power they had, but they were too eager to cling on to it. Yes, if they'd stuck by their principles they may have lost that bit of power, but they'd be respected for standing up for what they believe in. As it is, hardly anyone still believes anything that Lib Dem politicians say, so they've damaged themselves as well as let down their voters.

Also means that those more inclined towards the left of the political spectrum haven't really got a party to vote for right now. Labour has taken a turn to the right of the centre. I guess there are the Greens, and they do have a few good ideas, but, personally speaking, I think they have a ways to go before they're a truly viable party.

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I'll admit to not knowing much about the SNP, but I agree that Labour was a nightmare when it came to the right to privacy. In the last election, I was stupid enough to believe that the Lib Dems were sensible (on this issue and others), which is a lesson learned.

Can somebody please explain to me what the Lib Dems have done that's sooooooooooo bad? I mean as far as I can see the worst that can be levelled at them is that they've not really done a lot and delivered on all their election promises. I mean duh! As the minority partner in a COALITION what do people really expect?
Betrayed everyone: see everything they used to believe in and university fees etc.
Well were they really at fault for the fees or was it simply a Tory policy pushed through because they were the majority partner?

Thats the point they're trying to make, they didn't utilise their minority standing to any particular effect.
I'm just asking how much leverage they could ever really have.

That's always the question with minority partners in any coalition. There is leverage but it's got to be used strategically.. Pick fights constantly and before you know it, it's back to the polls and there's no guarantee you'll be back in power.
And its instances like that where a statesman truly shows his worth.
Cobblers! :lol:

Well it is, isn't it? The whole idea of being a statesman is people skills, knowing when to give and when to take and how much, it's an art. Any old cunt can just be in charge and go 'right, you over there, him over there and her and her with me!'...but then in situations like being the minority end in a coalition...or like foreign affairs and your track record with diplomacy, to me those are like...the benchmark of a quality politician.

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Everyone is saying Labour will win next election yet I simply cannot see it. Milliband? He is completely unrecognizable by most. I think the Tories will get in again - and with a majority this time.

Graeme and I will be at George Street tonight!

Just remember you are amidst barbarous heathens - further than even Rome ventured. If the going gets rough, flee to Hadrian's Wall and civilisation.

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Huge thanks to Graeme and Gordon for the tour of Glasgow tonight on the eve of such a historic, momentous day. Atmosphere is electric.

Anytime! But if you were gonna pick a day, then today was as good as any and better :)!

Don't know if this has been answered, but would Scotland survive on it's own? What are it's major exports?

Page 4, pal.

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If you want an economy worse than Romania's, being out of the EU and not having a currency - then yes is a good option.

One person on a crusade to be a president of an 'independent' country could mess things up royally for everyone else and hasn't considered the impact of the majority of the above. A great leader.

Threatening how bad it could be really isn't a constructive way to endorse a "no" vote. I've been asking for a Unionist solution to the democratic deficit which led to the initial tabling of the referendum, several times within this thread and so far no-one has offered one apart from "put up and shut up."

Give me some explanation on the mechanisms for a country with an advanced industrialised economy to revert to the developing upper-middle income economy of a country still emerging from the detrimental elements of totalitarian rule:

I'm not saying that everything would instantly fall into place, but countries with far fewer resources are able to sustainably run their economies. You seem to be presuming an incredible level of incompetence and stupidity on behalf of the Scottish Government, which (given that we have one of the most highly educated populations in the world) I think is unfounded. Most people in Scotland are satisfied with the way the Scottish Government handles all our devolved affairs (and they're certainly doing a better job than that shower in Westminster).

Why would it be that they can handle health, justice, education, transport and business perfectly well but if you threw in defence, foreign policy and tax-raising we would suddenly fall to pieces?

From the UK, Scotland has:

32% of the land area.

61% of the sea area.

90% of the fresh water.

65% of the natural gas production.

96.5% of the crude oil production.

47% of the open cast coal production

81% of the untapped coal reserves

62% of the timber production

46% of the total forest area

92% of the hydro electric production

40% of the wind wave and solar energy production

60% of the fish landings

30% of the beef herd

20% of the sheep herd

9% of the dairy herd

10% of the pig herd

15% if the cereal holdings

20% of the potato holdings

...obviously 100% of the Scotch Whisky industry.

We also have:

a 17 billion pound construction industry

13 billion food and drink industry

10 billion business services industry

9.3 billion chemical services industry

A 9.3 billion tourism industry

7 billion financial services industry

5 billion aeroservice industry

4.5 billion pound whisky exports industry

3.1 billion pound life sciences industry

Scotland still has 350 million pounds worth of textile exports

We have 25% of Europe's wave and wind energy potential.

And finally we are blessed to have 1.5 trillion pound worth of oil and gas reserves.

How tremendously incompetent would we have to be to become impoverished with this amount of resources at our disposal?

Also, for the time being, an independent Scotland would still be "the Kingdom of Scotland", a constitutional monarchy (presumably a referendum on whether or not to become a republic would be forthcoming). So your fears about some errant Commander-in-Chief seem a bit silly. If that was some sort of slight on Alex Salmond's apparent ego trip, I don't believe he's "Mr. Independence" and the campaign is about so much more than him or his party, but for what it's worth, he has the strongest mandate for his political position of any politician (and the highest approval ratings) in these islands, all gained through due democratic process and despite (rather than because of) the mainstream media.

Hmm, seems like Scotland will do just fine!

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This morning I went to my polling station and voted "Yes" to Scottish Independence because I hold liberal values high above economic ones.

There are risks of course but I'm eager to take them. As Tommy Sheridan put it: "It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees."

Vote Yes.

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This morning I went to my polling station and voted "Yes" to Scottish Independence because I hold liberal values high above economic ones.

There are risks of course but I'm eager to take them. As Tommy Sheridan put it: "It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees."

Vote Yes.

Welcome back mate!

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