The Boxing Thread

[Len Cnut]

The thought of Floyd and Leonard fighting is funny to me. After fighting heavy hitters like Duran, Hearns, and Hagler I just see a HUGE smile on Leonard's face after feeling Floyd's powder puff punches.....

I think, out of that 70s bunch, Leonard would have the hardest time out of all of them against Floyd and even he would have it easy. 'the shoulder roll, the shoulder roll', here, i'll show ya what Leonard would've done to with the shoulder roll:

35:30

Roll your shoulder Floyd

[DieselDaisy]

Would it not be fair to say that Sugar Ray Robinson was better as a Welter Weight? If you are talking about Welter Weights, there is no way I can deny he is the greatest. He only had one defeat in that division I believe, against La Motta. But for the king of middle weights, there is Monzon and then there is Hagler. Monzon might just clinch it because of that last Hagler defeat but Hagler fought stronger opposition.

[Len Cnut]

Hearns is my 2nd favorite of this weight, being as I'm a Michigan man, the Hitman is kind of a big deal around here.

I just don't understand how normal welterweights got near that fuckin' octopus. Y'know he is responsible for one of the more frightening knockouts I've seen in my life, his one against Duran, i thought his head would spin like a top, it was actually grostesque almost, like you were his neck must've snapped, I remember seeing it in front of my Mum once when i was little, totally by accident, I'm watching a tape and she walks in hoovering, thought she was gonna cry or something, poor Duran, he fell so horribly as well, right on his face, like he was dead or something.

[DieselDaisy]

I thought Hearns was really unlucky; in my opinion he beat Sugar Ray, UD, in their second match. He was also ahead on rounds before his ko in the first match - but, that is the nature of the beast. Round 1 of Hearns-Hagler is probably the best single round of a boxing match, ever.

[T.wa.T]

Hearns is my 2nd favorite of this weight, being as I'm a Michigan man, the Hitman is kind of a big deal around here.

I just don't understand how normal welterweights got near that fuckin' octopus. Y'know he is responsible for one of the more frightening knockouts I've seen in my life, his one against Duran, i thought his head would spin like a top, it was actually grostesque almost, like you were his neck must've snapped, I remember seeing it in front of my Mum once when i was little, totally by accident, I'm watching a tape and she walks in hoovering, thought she was gonna cry or something, poor Duran, he fell so horribly as well, right on his face, like he was dead or something.

Yeah, I know that punch. Duran was on the ropes already into tommorow and Hearns kept letting his hands go, bigtime head snap.

Hearns had such a great advantage over his peers in the division because of his height and reach. The fucker just liked to have a good ol' fashioned brawl here and there...love it.

[Len Cnut]

I thought Hearns was really unlucky; in my opinion he beat Sugar Ray, UD, in their second match. He was also ahead on rounds before his ko in the first match - but, that is the nature of the beast. Round 1 of Hearns-Hagler is probably the best single round of a boxing match, ever.

Really, Hearns got the first Leonard fight almost stolen from him. Not that there was anything illegal done, i just mean he's winning and he's winning and he's winning and then suddenly Leonard just has him and he's out. And the rematch as you (and Ray Leonard too) say Hearns won. What bothers me about Hearns is later losses to the likes of Iran Barkley and them.

[DieselDaisy]

I cannot believe he was still fighting until 2006!

[Len Cnut]

Apparently he was this total pussy as a kid who started boxing to stop all the unfriendly chappies from Mike420s manor from stealing his coat

[T.wa.T]

If you are speaking about Duran, Benitez, Sugar Ray, Tommy Hitman Hearns and Hagler, you are speaking my sort of language. This was the greatest period for the welter/middle weights. Any of these guys could whip Floyd Jr and the Chinese fella with their arms tied around their back.

Throw Aaron Pryor, Alexis Arguello & Ray Mancini in there too.

The 90' into 2000's werent a bad time for welters or Middle weights either. Hopkins, Jones (Middleweights).

And lets not forget James "Lights Out" Toney, once he figured the sweet science out and came into his own, he was beautiful to watch. He's very underrated and often gets left out of the conversation.

Love watching those old videos of Ray Robinson. He used to sometimes train in the town I grew up in. Good ol Greenwood Lake, NY. The same town also gave the boxing world Mike Tyson victim Lou Savarese, whom I used to see hitting his heavy bag at 7:30 in the morning while on my walk to the bus stop going to school, lol. Poor guy. He's got a nice house now though. And he's a nice guy, I played some pick up Basketball with him a few times.

Funny, GWL was a hotbed back in the day where alot of sport celebrities hung out. Guys like Babe Ruth, Micky Mantle would go there on vacation. Joe Louis trained there, SRR, also Derek Jeter owns a house there on the lake. Its just a small little hick town 45 minutes outside of NYC. Convinience I suppose.

Edited February 1, 2015 by T.wa.T

[Len Cnut]

There is a school of thought that says that, as pure boxers go, James Toney was the best of his generation. Out of people from England you'll see a loss of knowledge after the Leonard, Hearns, Duran, Hagler era, which is a shame because fuck me, Roy Jones, James Toney, these guys were fuckin' monsters. RJJ was unconventional but James Toney had a pure boxing style down cold.

And then welterweight Oscar, Trinidad, Pernell Whittaker, Julio Cesar Chavez. Pernell Whittaker, you could make a case again, as being the best of the lot of em and, maybe, pound for pound the best of his generation. His loss to Oscar was a joke, his draw against Chavez was a joke and the other two losses he was done by then.

Aaron Pryor, if you look at his achievements in moving weight classes, and transplant them onto the current system, really and truly are equal to Floyd Mayweathers exploits in that department.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Len B'stard

[T.wa.T]

Exactly, about Toney. He was as good as they came and I don't think he maxed his potential out. There was a bit of a I'm so good I don't have to push myself as hard as those guys, thing about him.

Funny you mention Sweet Pea, I was watching him and Chavez the other day. Early on JCC kept walking him down and Pea would pot shot him and exchange with him. Then he would circle out to his right to avoid JCC right, great stuff. Over here, he is still mentioned as one of the great defensive boxers, probably top 5 yeah?

Pryor was feared by the whole division, even Leonard. Biggest difference between him and Floyd is Pryor was the one they were ducking. Pryors bouts with Arguello are legendary. I think it was the 2nd one where the Hawk damn near killed Alexis, much like Hearns v Duran. I do think there is something to that whole " Gimme the other bottle", thing but we'll never know for sure. Either way he was a feared man.

[Len Cnut]

I think he might've killed Alexis with a few more shots, it was rough, his head was snapping like fuck.

[Iron MikeyJ]

@Lenny,

I don't disagree that Robinson is the best of the bunch, but if you put him in the 80's he would have gotten some losses to the rest of those boys IMO. My reasoning being that Lamotta got em' and Jake was good, but he wasn't on the level of Leonard, Hagler, and Hearns IMO. So my thinking is, you put Robinson (even as great as he was) in the 80's against the rest of those boys, he would of had his share of struggles as well. He wouldn't have just dominated and remained unbeaten, no way. He probably would stillhave been the best, but he would have taken some bumps along the way just like the rest did.

[Len Cnut]

I agree La Motta wasn't on the level of a Leonard etc but that doesn't necessarily mean that Robinson would've had a hard time with Leonard and them. Or a Hagler or a Hearns. And remember, that was one fight Jake got him on, what about the rest? Jake got him because Jake was a fucking animal, Jake got him because Jake was a freak of nature, you just could not put the bastard down. He beat seven shades of shit out of Jake, make no mistake about it and he would've done the same to Hagler, Hearns he would've knocked the fuck out and Leonard, hmmm, y'know what, you've stumped me there, I'm not sure what would happen, what happens when skillster meets skillster?

I'll tell you one thing though, anything Leonard could do Robinson could do better. Better footwork, MUCH MUCH MUCH harder puncher, just as good of a chin, at least as fast but a lot stronger and harder with his speed where Leonard was often guilty of looking really flash and good with the fast combinations but they really served to just dazzle people and set up a good solid shot, which in itself is a fuckin' talent but it ain't a Ray Robinson thing.

And I'll tell ya another thing, Ray Robinson never waited for his opponents to start aging before he took them on like Leonard did with Hagler. Now i love Ray Leonard, my last screename gives that shit away but the truth is the truth, he was a sneaky bastard when he wanted to be. Honestly, i think Ray Robinson would out-point him over the course of a very gruelling fight.

[Iron MikeyJ]

I agree with you that Robinson would have proven himself to be the best of the bunch, but my point was he ain't going undeafeated through that bunch. One of em' would have dropped Robinson, at least once, and now that I think about it, Hearns would have been the one to do it. Robinson NEVER fought anyone remotely like Hearns, and I'm calling it right here right now, Tommy would have taken 2 out of 3 fights against Robinson. He hit harder, had that height, had that reach. Even as great as Robinson was, he would have struggled against Tommy. Now Robinson might have run rough shot through the rest of those boys, and Tommy would still have taken the losses that he did, but the Hitman puts Robinson down man, it's a bad match up for Robinson....

What do you think?

[DieselDaisy]

Robinson might have struggled against Hagler but I think he would have cleaned the welter weights out.

Len, about Sugar Ray waiting for Hagler to age, this works both ways. Leonard was only two years younger than Hagler! Leonard had fought one fight in five years - I repeat, one in five years - before facing Hagler (against the unremarkable Kevin Howard). There is literally five years which separate Hearns I and SRL's first retirement and SRL vs Hagler. Now Hagler was the undisputed king of he middle weight division, with twelve defenses. I am not saying that this was Clay vs Liston or Douglas/Tyson in mismatches but no body rated his chances.

And you have seen how Leonard fought that fight, he was remarkable: (commentator) ''what a cocky kid''; bolo punches etc. He was sublime. Ali's legs were fucked in his late 20s. Leonard was fighting the fight of his life in his mid 30s.

[Len Cnut]

I agree with you that Robinson would have proven himself to be the best of the bunch, but my point was he ain't going undeafeated through that bunch. One of em' would have dropped Robinson, at least once, and now that I think about it, Hearns would have been the one to do it. Robinson NEVER fought anyone remotely like Hearns, and I'm calling it right here right now, Tommy would have taken 2 out of 3 fights against Robinson. He hit harder, had that height, had that reach. Even as great as Robinson was, he would have struggled against Tommy. Now Robinson might have run rough shot through the rest of those boys, and Tommy would still have taken the losses that he did, but the Hitman puts Robinson down man, it's a bad match up for Robinson....

What do you think?

I dunno, it's hard for me to sit here and say that anyone'd put him down. But hey, if anybody had the tools it was Hearns. But then I'd like to see how well Hearns chin stood up to one of Robinsons shots.

Robinson might have struggled against Hagler but I think he would have cleaned the welter weights out.

Len, about Sugar Ray waiting for Hagler to age, this works both ways. Leonard was only two years younger than Hagler! Leonard had fought one fight in five years - I repeat, one in five years - before facing Hagler (against the unremarkable Kevin Howard). There is literally five years which separate Hearns I and SRL's first retirement and SRL vs Hagler. Now Hagler was the undisputed king of he middle weight division, with twelve defenses. I am not saying that this was Clay vs Liston or Douglas/Tyson in mismatches but no body rated his chances.

And you have seen how Leonard fought that fight, he was remarkable: (commentator) ''what a cocky kid''; bolo punches etc. He was sublime. Ali's legs were fucked in his late 20s. Leonard was fighting the fight of his life in his mid 30s.

He sort of waited til he saw cracks in him though and when he did, after the Mugabe fight, he went in. And Ray was working those five years, he werent at home eating crisps. I mean your point still stands, a lay off from pro fights is what it is but I could see how 12 title defences would wear on you more as a boxer than that shit.

And honestly, i don't think the Leonard Hagler fight was a good fight. I like the results and I'm a Ray Leonard fan but like, of that bunch, Duran, Leonard, Hearns, Hagler, etc etc etc and all the fights they had against each other, I'd rate Hagler Leonard as the crappest. He moved good yes but most of it was just him running, little dazzling impressive pitty pat flurries and all that. I mean he did a number on him and everything but....i dunno, not exactly fight of the century, was it? As far as a legs comparison between him and Ali, the flipside of that is Leonard even at his best couldn't dance like Ali, no one could.

Overall you're not wrong in what you say though.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Len B'stard

[Iron MikeyJ]

I agree, Leonard vs Hagler was good but not great.

[Len Cnut]

My favorites of their bunch is Duran Leonard I, Leonard Hearns I, Hagler Hearns and Duran Hearns if only for that fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucking beautiful bedtime shot.

If i was Hearns i would've held my hand to my mouth and blew it like Clint Eastwood blowing smoke off his revolver, that shit was lethal!

Edited February 2, 2015 by Len B'stard

[DieselDaisy]

Ahh, I have to disagree. I love Leonard v Hagler. Everything about it, I love. I think Leonard was masterful when he got that last burst of energy and started dancing again in the final round. And Angie's encouragement.

Ali did not dance like Ali, post exile!

[Len Cnut]

Ahh, I have to disagree. I love Leonard v Hagler. Everything about it, I love. I think Leonard was masterful when he got that last burst of energy and started dancing again in the final round. And Angie's encouragement.

Ali did not dance like Ali, post exile!

It was basically just him moving and moving and moving...and then working the last minute of every round, quite literally. Where he proved his worth though and the aspects of it that make the performance undeniable is the few times he did get caught on the ropes or put in a dodgy position he fought his way out EVERY time. Based on that you can't deny the victory, you can't call it running. A couple of times he actually traded with Hagler to get out of there.

[DieselDaisy]

He fought a boxers' fight. That is his fight. He did not get suckered into the opposition's flight like when he fought Duran the first time. Good fighters fight, their fight. It was intelligent and logical. As Angie said, ''don't load up on him: stick and move, stick and move''.

[Len Cnut]

Hagler was like 'fight me, fight me you fuckin' pussy'...and Leonards response was 'uh...not tonight!' Leonard had a way of getting on Haglers raving titties too so it was an impressive thing to watch. He's not a pleasant man y'know, Marvin Hagler. Apparently he was a total cunt to the Petronelli's in the early part of their relationship, he mistrusted white folks apparently. I remember watching him commentate a fight a couple of years back and the fighters kept touching gloves between rounds and he was like 'i don't like that, i don't like how they keep touching gloves, you do that when the fights over, when i was in the ring i wanted to smell blood' and it's like, fuckin' hell, steady on Marv'

[DieselDaisy]

He loves us Brits I know, because of the Minter fight. I remember reading something about him refusing to fight here.

[Iron MikeyJ]

It just kinda felt like that decision could have gone either way. I am glad that Leonard got the win, but man. I'd hate to have to judge that fight, it was too close to call IMO.