Confederate flag? Yes or no?

[Iron MikeyJ]

Yes I did read the article. Again, it was a battle field flag originally. So again, as with my ORIGINAL point, it has had many different meanings. I don't know why you keep making me defend it, I could honestly careless about it. I'm never said it doesn't have negative associations in today's society, nor did I say it shouldn't be taken down. Everything isn't all or nothing. Some things do have different meanings to different people, and the fact many black rappers have sported the flag from time to time just echos my point.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Iron MikeyJ

[DieselDaisy]

The southern pride would have been dissipated between the individual states. Lee was a Virginian who fought for the CSA because Virginia seceded. If Virginia stayed within the federal union he would have certainly been the union army's preeminent general. Don't forget that the seceding states were the heirs of Jeffersonian democracy, of individual (rural) republics with next to no federal government. The south's arguments were all merely, recycled Jefferson and Jackson. I do think some of this altered however with the war.

[downzy]

Yes I did read the article. Again, it was a battle field flag originally. So again, as with my ORIGINAL point, it has had many different meanings. I don't know why you keep making me defend it, I could honestly careless about it. I'm never said it doesn't have negative associations in today's society, nor did I say it shouldn't be taken down. Everything isn't all or nothing. Some things do have different meanings to different people, and the fact many black rappers have sported the flag from time to time just echos my point.

If you don't feel like defending the flag, why do you continue to do so?

The only diversity in meanings of the flag I can denote are that of Southern Soldiers who rallied around it and the segregationists of the 1940s through 1960s who hung it as a response to the civil rights movement. Sure, I suppose some contend that it represents Southern heritage, but considering the heritage, why would you ever want to celebrate it?

As for black rappers wearing the confederate flag, I suppose you're not familiar with the concept of subversive art. Artists will attempt to repurpose a symbol of hate and oppression, but rarely is the repurposing done wholesale. Sure, I'm sure you could find a few black people who defend the flag. But are they representative of the overall majority of African Americans who take offence to a symbol that has long history of racial oppression?

[Iron MikeyJ]

As for your point on celebrating southern heritage, my thing is who are we to tell people what or what not to be proud of. If a certain percentage of the population finds pride in that flag, isn't that their right as well? Once you start telling people what or what not be proud of or celebrate, then you become just as bad as those you swore to oppose.

Look, I'm not southern, I'm a northern boy through and through. But I did spend a portion of my life living in the south. Yes they have ways down there that I don't agree with or even like, but who am I to tell them they are wrong? A different collection of ideas and beliefs are what this country was supposed to be about, but it seem like a lot of people just want everybody to think "just like they do" which seems to me to be about as anti-American as you can get. Im far more liberal in my beliefs than I am conservative (just so you know where I stand overall), but I do see a lot of "think like me because I'm right" going on these days, and that's what I don't agree with. As much as I dislike racists and KKK members, as soon as we try to push them down or act like they shouldn't be allowed in "our America", then we essentially become just as bad as they were. Every veiw point, however racist has a right to exist.

But again, as far as the flag, I agree that it should not be allowed on goverment buildings. It should have never been allowed, if you want my honest opinion there. But when you make the Duke boys out to be bad guys and take them off the air, that's where I draw the line. ?

Edited July 3, 2015 by Iron MikeyJ

[downzy]

As for your point on celebrating southern heritage, my thing is who are we to tell people what or what not to be proud of. If a certain percentage of the population finds pride in that flag, isn't that their right as well? Once you start telling people what or what not be proud of or celebrate, then you become just as bad as those you swore to oppose.

Look, I'm not southern, I'm a northern boy through and through. But I did spend a portion of my life living in the south. Yes they have ways down there that I don't agree with or even like, but who am I to tell them they are wrong? A different collection of ideas and beliefs are what this country was supposed to be about, but it seem like a lot of people just want everybody to think "just like they do" which seems to me to be about as anti-American as you can get. Im far more liberal in my beliefs than I am conservative (just so you know where I stand overall), but I do see a lot of "think like me because I'm right" going on these days, and that's what I don't agree with. As much as I dislike racists and KKK members, as soon as we try to push them down or act like they shouldn't be allowed in "our America", then we essentially become just as bad as they were. Every veiw point, however racist has a right to exist.

But again, as far as the flag, I agree that it should not be allowed on goverment buildings. It should have never been allowed, if you want my honest opinion there. But when you make the Duke boys out to be bad guys and take them off the air, that's where I draw the line.

It's their right to celebrate whatever they want, but if they want to celebrate a flag that has its origins representing the side the fought for continuation of slavery and was later repurposed to resist desegregation and the civil rights moment, then others have the right to judge the fuck out of them. People are within their right to fly a Nazi flag (save for Germans living in Germany), but those who resent what the flag signifies is within their right cast their judgements upon them.

Not all ideas are equal, however. The arguments that opposed desegregation should not be given equal consideration than those who argued that institutional segregation is contrary to the Constitution. So yes, on matters of equal treatment and application of the laws of the land, everyone should oppose and condemn both arguments and symbols that state otherwise. There are certain matters where a diversity of opinion should be embraced. No one is going to argue about that. But matters of slavery, racial segregation, institutional racism, white supremacy; these are not areas where we should permit the "you have your opinion, I have mine" opinion. You seriously think the argument that says "in my America, we do not accept intolerance and bigotry" deserves as much consideration as the one that suggest, "In my America, black people can fuck off." Fuck no. Nobody is denying the right for people to think racist and fucked things. What's at issue is how we respond to them. And to whitewash and revise the history of the Civil War and the context of what the Confederate flag represents is akin to allowing the wrong arguments to prevail.

Again, nobody other than a few overreactive television executives were calling for the end of the Dukes of Hazzard. The movement to rid state capitals of the Confederate flag has nothing to do with the action taken by TV Land. But it would seem as though many ascribe this action to this movement, which is wrong and only does a disservice to the efforts that we all agree with (i.e. removing the Confederate flag from public grounds).

[Iron MikeyJ]

It's been fun debating this topic with you, but I've just been playing devils advocate the whole time. I like to do that from time to time, just take the other side of the argument for shits and giggles, but alas the giggles are gone. Now all I have left is Shit.

But just so we are clear, I have never been a fan of that flag. As a matter of fact, anytime I see one I tend to judge that person pretty harshly myself. ?

Edited July 3, 2015 by Iron MikeyJ

[AxlisOld]

Well that's quite the cop out.

[magisme]

So now we get to tell people what is and isn't a symbol of their heritage? Sweet. America.

[Len Cnut]

When it transgender rights being bandied around you accept ideas like 'i feel like a woman on the inside' and take it for what it is because hey, its how they feel right? when its a flag we cant accept what people say it means to them and suddenly the meaning behind everything becomes rigid and dictatorial, hmmm.

[Iron MikeyJ]

When it transgender rights being bandied around you accept ideas like 'i feel like a woman on the inside' and take it for what it is because hey, its how they feel right? when its a flag we cant accept what people say it means to them and suddenly the meaning behind everything becomes rigid and dictatorial, hmmm.

This was exactly my point. Thanks Len.

[J Dog]

When it transgender rights being bandied around you accept ideas like 'i feel like a woman on the inside' and take it for what it is because hey, its how they feel right? when its a flag we cant accept what people say it means to them and suddenly the meaning behind everything becomes rigid and dictatorial, hmmm.

you know me enough to know I'm not a pc, sensitive type of guy. But I have to say, that's how a lot of it feels.

To most people I know that use the flag like that, it's more of a "hey yall I'm from the south" type of thing as opposed to a "Hail Confederacy! Hate blacks!" type of thing. And to say anybody who has ever done anything with the flag, without even knowing them, to flat out call them all a racist, redneck, asshole, that's messed up. That gets me defensive and I've never even gotten into the whole t-shirt, bumper sticker stuff. I understand that's not what the flag originally stood for, but that's how most people view it.

People talk about southern pride. Doesn't mean they're proud of slavery. Or still wish it was 1850. People don't put on their confederate flag shirt and think, hell yeah the south is gonna rise again! It's just about representing where you live. To most people. Yeah there are some racist crazy people in the south, just like everywhere else.

This whole idea of lumping all southern people or anyone who at one point and time has had a flag bumper sticker is a straight up racist, I can't get behind that at all.

[Len Cnut]

What amuses me also is that, in all of this, no ones actually asking or hearing out people from the south it appears.

[Dazey]

What amuses me also is that, in all of this, no ones actually asking or hearing out people from the south it appears.

I'll ask the missus and get back to you.

[arnold layne]

What amuses me also is that, in all of this, no ones actually asking or hearing out people from the south it appears.

That's because a lot of 'em a hard to take seriously.

I'm living below the Mason Dixon line, and the stereotype is real. Everyone and their horse has a truck, chewing tobacco and cigarettes are a food group (and not taxed), overalls, beer guts, and cowboy hats are the norm, and every doctor's office has The Holy Bible in the reception area.

If you drive past Kansas you may as well be in Tokyo.

[magisme]

I suppose we'd much prefer them to suit up and chase that dollar.

[Dazey]

I suppose we'd much prefer them to suit up and chase that dollar.

As opposed to lube up and chase that sister.

[magisme]

[Len Cnut]

What amuses me also is that, in all of this, no ones actually asking or hearing out people from the south it appears.

That's because a lot of 'em a hard to take seriously.

I'm living below the Mason Dixon line, and the stereotype is real. Everyone and their horse has a truck, chewing tobacco and cigarettes are a food group (and not taxed), overalls, beer guts, and cowboy hats are the norm, and every doctor's office has The Holy Bible in the reception area.

If you drive past Kansas you may as well be in Tokyo.

From what I've managed to gather they're cooler, less hung up, more comfortable with their identity and pretty kind and friendly people, im certainly not a man of experience or anything but thats the impression I've gathered. I dont see a problem with any of the things you've mentioned.

If i was gonna go to America I'd go south. I know the immediate response to that is 'oh they'll love you down there!' but thats a bunch of pussy shit, folks are folks the world over, its like when they say *gasp* dont go to Brixton, black people will rob you, there's never no one to be afraid of like that.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Len B'stard

[Dazey]

What amuses me also is that, in all of this, no ones actually asking or hearing out people from the south it appears.

That's because a lot of 'em a hard to take seriously.

I'm living below the Mason Dixon line, and the stereotype is real. Everyone and their horse has a truck, chewing tobacco and cigarettes are a food group (and not taxed), overalls, beer guts, and cowboy hats are the norm, and every doctor's office has The Holy Bible in the reception area.

If you drive past Kansas you may as well be in Tokyo.

From what I've managed to gather they're cooler, less hung up, more comfortable with their identity and pretty kind and friendly people, im certainly not a man of experience or anything but thats the impression I've gathered. I dont see a problem with any of the things you've mentioned.

If i was gonna go to America I'd go south. I know the immediate response to that is 'oh they'll love you down there!' but thats a bunch of pussy shit, folks are folks the world over, its like when they say *gasp* dont go to Brixton, black people will rob you, there's never no one to be afraid of like that.

Three blocks from where I got married.

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2015/05/double_shooting_in_french_quar.html

[Iron MikeyJ]

I used to think similiar to Downzy when it came to issues like this, but I have had my eyes opened recently. So I'm going to take this thread to bigger level than just the flag, bear with me.

A few months back I got into some serious discussions concerning the new Ghostbusters movie (on a different web site of course). I tried, at exhaustion to explain my point, that I'm really more against them remaking the film, not the all women cast so much. I'm not crazy about the cast either, but I can accept them if they existed in a world where the events of the first 2 films did indeed happen. But what happened? I got attacked by many 20 to 24 year old woman. I got called every name in the book, sexist, you name it. Which I am not, or at least i dont think I am, I have a wife and two daughters and I encourage them to do everything anyone else can. But that's besides the point. But this situation really got me thinking.

Why do people go on such vicious attacks when they feel they are in the right? It's like they become so closed minded to any other view point, it's you either agree with me or you are a sexist, racists, homophobe, you name it. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I believe a lot more goes into being considered one of those words than not liking the new Ghostbusters movie. The swiftness these women will throw out such heavy handed accusations was quite alarming.

Now that was just my experience, but it got me thinking about a larger issue. When the formerly discrimated against begin attacking and discrimating others they essentially become just as bad as those that discriminated them. Even if you feel your cause is just, you must not lower yourself to name calling and mudslinging, because as soon as you do, you become just as ugly as other side. Which this is the problem I have encountered. Take this thread for example, calling all southerners or anyone that has ever owned a confederate flag a racists is a form of discrimination. Im sorry but being a racists requires more than just owning a flag. It requires you using a certain "n" word and generalizing all black people as bad. Which again, it's generalizations that cause these problems to begin with. I'm sure many people that have a flag are indeed racist, but you can't generalize that all of them are. That's just as bad as someone that generalized blacks, women, or any other group.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Iron MikeyJ

[Len Cnut]

I love how you go 'im taking this to another level here!' And then go 'yknow the new Ghostbusters film?'

There are no words you speak or flags you wave or albums you own that make you a racist, its an internal feeling or belief about something.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Len B'stard

[SunnyDRE]

I think a better discussion would be "who" wants the flag removed from our culture. For the most part it isn't blacks. 95% of blacks don't give a damn about this as an issue. This isn't really one of our talking points; and furthermore there aren't many blacks in a position of power to really bring this issue to table or make decisions like pulling tv shows or stop selling merchandise.

It is white people who are making fuss about the flag. Why? And is it a good thing or bad thing?

Better discussion imo, but people don't really want dig deep into the real issues.

[DieselDaisy]

Imagine pit as a plantation owner. He would be shagging all of his profits.

[Len Cnut]

I think a better discussion would be "who" wants the flag removed from our culture. For the most part it isn't blacks. 95% of blacks don't give a damn about this as an issue. This isn't really one of our talking points; and furthermore there aren't many blacks in a position of power to really bring this issue to table or make decisions like pulling tv shows or stop selling merchandise.

It is white people who are making fuss about the flag. Why? And is it a good thing or bad thing?

Better discussion imo, but people don't really want dig deep into the real issues.

Well no one was saying that blacks were moaning about it and everyone knows the answer to the second question, it's called guilt. First world liberals desperate for some sort of profundity in their lives.

As far as no blacks being in a position of power, isn't a black person minding the store at this very moment?

Edited July 3, 2015 by Len B'stard

[magisme]

"black"