GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2

[Rocketqueen76]

3 minutes ago, purplestargirl said:

IQ tests are a measure of how you function in daily life. At least that was explained to me when I asked about them. If anyone else can explain that better, please feel free to correct me/elaborate on that.

Hence my statement about common sense. Because that was the way it was explained to me too.

[Natalia92]

1 hour ago, Frey said:

 

There are plenty of legitimate reasons to at least distrust TB.

And the bits and pieces we do know about are more than enough to make me question their motives and to make me think they're capable of some seriously shady shit.

I said it is unfair and superficial to blame the fact that Axl didn't have a family on his own on them because for me it is quite obvious that there are some other issues going on. Axl had a huge fall out with both Erin and Stephanie and that was long before TB  appeared in the picture. Axl had (has?) his issues with women due to his strict upbringing and I think he admitted that in some interview in which he said that he grew up with the notion that women were evil etc etc. To overlook this and blame Beta and her kids is kind of idiotic  imo.

I've never met Beta but I find all the hatred on the forums (not only this one, pretty much everywhere) disturbing and completely unprovoked. For me the answer to this lies in a little greek word: misogyny. There MUST be a female to put the blame on. Always. Erin was a crazy bitch, Stephanie was a cheating slut... oh wait Axl hasn't had a fmily in his fifties? yeah right let's find another female scapegoat to put the blame on. That blood-sucker , leach, vulture, "fat-fuck", "consuela", I can't even count how many times I've seen this words on message boards like this one. This IS sad, repulsive and totally unfair and very far from just "distrusting" ( not directed to you or anyone in particular to avoid misunderstanding, just my thoughts on why people hate so much). Axl himself thanked that woman in tears but so what? the internet know-it all s know better. Misogyny is insidious and sometimes easy to embrace it without even understaning

[Alja]

7 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Yes and that's why I said the IQ tests are just statistical and an estimate of someone's intelligence and there are many of them out there. Some are more reliable than others but they are being used for certain purposes, probably just to put people into boxes or something.

Having an ability to express yourself within art is not an indication that someone is gifted or a genius. We would be surrounded by geniuses, then? No way.... There are people who study, read a lot, have been doing something for years and that's how they get to master an ability.

Axl did not always sang with that great voice. Listen to him on Rapidfire then listen to him on UYI. It is evident he made a lot of progress and this is because he dedicated all of his time to get there.

There's this thing some people do, like thinking others are gifted because it seems to them that these artists do things effortlessly and they dont have the slightest clue of how long it took someone to master their skills. Even people who are not born with an specific ability can develope or turn into a master of their ability after they have studied and practiced for years.

Also, not all art "touches" everybody in the same way. I'm sure lots of you don't give a shit about the lyrics of music of .... Britney Spears..... but Im sure there are many other people who's been "touched" or moved by her in their own way. I know others who look at a Picasso and go like "wtf is this crap??" and they will never see what's so incredible about Picasso..... I think its only fair....... I'm not denying that many artists have the ability to reach masses and so did Guns N' Roses and Queen and The Beatles and The Rolling Stones, etc..... but also remember they are all bands, not an individual person. Guns N' Roses music that reached to the masses was made by 5 guys, not one.

Gift is one part and it needs a lot of practice to make what you have inside as similar as you can in real life/for others. How long did Axl master November rain until it was ready? Since, like, 1983? You can`t master anything without gift, you can be better average, but not outstanding. If I went to art school and was not lazy to practice boring exercises, I would draw better, but I decided to do art for fun, not for living. On the other side, I could practice my fingers off on the guitar and I still won`t be better than average rhythm guitarist. See Slash, the way music passes through him, that`s gift (not to say he practices a lot).

Genius also has something with particular time and space and Guns were in right time on right place and made it into music (Yes, I totally agree with Aristotle that whole is more than sum of its parts, Guns are shiny example). Picasso got it and changed art in his epoch, that`s his major contribution, if I like his paintings or not. Beatles, Queen, Stones and others bought something new or re-imagined, changed music, changed their epoch with it, Britney was some overproduced act to be sold to masses. (Major music geniuses were also solo artists, Beethoven Mozart, Bach...)

I am a big picture person, by the way

[purplestargirl]

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

That excuse was widely used by celebrities and regular people around that time with Twitter. Until it became old and couldn't be used anymore

I'm sorry about that. We never had a GN'R tour or show cancelled here but I can imagine what would have happened if it did

IQ tests are not meant to test common sense.

Also, most people do not take them voluntarily to boast about anything. They usually are asked by organizations you want to be part of. Can be the university or a company. Or it can be asked by a psychiatrist because they suspect of something different in your behavior or cognitive abilities.

There's no reason to hate them or talk like that about them.

IQ tests measure your mental agility. They are mostly used to diagnose learning disabilities and to predict how someone will perform in a determined task.

 

Ah thank you. It was through IQ testing conducted through a clincial psychologist where I found out that I had learning issues related to visual-spatial processing.

[Rocketqueen76]

24 minutes ago, killuridols said:

IQ tests are not meant to test common sense.

Also, most people do not take them voluntarily to boast about anything. They usually are asked by organizations you want to be part of. Can be the university or a company. Or it can be asked by a psychiatrist because they suspect of something different in your behavior or cognitive abilities.

There's no reason to hate them or talk like that about them.

I don't like them because of what they represent. In the military we have the ASVAB which is sort of but not exactly the same thing. The overall raw score doesn't really hold a lot of merit, but what matters is what's called your GT score...that determines what occupation the military will allow you to hold. I had free reign to do whatever I wanted (I hadn't yet gone to college at the time), yet this college graduate was relocated to having to chose low on the totem pole. This is why I feel the way I do about IQ tests.

[Frey]

3 minutes ago, Natalia92 said:

I said it is unfair and superficial to blame the fact that Axl didn't have a family on his own on them because for me it is quite obvious that there are some other issues going on. Axl had a huge fall out with both Erin and Stephanie and that was long before TB  appeared in the picture. Axl had (has?) his issues with women due to his strict upbringing and I think he admitted that in some interview in which he said that he grew up with the notion that women were evil etc etc. To overlook this and blame Beta and her kids is kind of idiotic  imo.

I've never met Beta but I find all the hatred on the forums (not only this one, pretty much everywhere) disturbing and completely unprovoked. For me the answer to this lies in a little greek word: misogyny. There MUST be a female to put the blame on. Always. Erin was a crazy bitch, Stephanie was a cheating slut... oh wait Axl hasn't had a fmily in his fifties? yeah right let's find another female scapegoat to put the blame on. That blood-sucker , leach, vulture, "fat-fuck", "consuela", I can't even count how many times I've seen this words on message boards like this one. This IS sad, repulsive and totally unfair and very far from just "distrusting" ( not directed to you or anyone in particular to avoid misunderstanding, just my thoughts on why people hate so much). Axl himself thanked that woman in tears but so what? the internet know-it all s know better. Misogyny is insidious and sometimes easy to embrace it without even understaning

You are so far off the mark (at least as far as this thread is concerned). Most people here have always stood up for Erin or other women and never blamed them for Axl's lack of family. Also, people don't just hate on Beta because she's a woman. As I said, there are plenty of legitimate reasons to distrust her and I'd say her son Fernando is equally as disliked as she is (if not more so). And the same goes for other men in the entourage, like Andrei. So how can misogyny be the explanation for this? Reasons to dislike TB and the freak show are manifold, but reducing it to simply misogyny makes no sense.

And yes, Axl already had plenty of issues long before TB came into play, but still the fact remains: Axl hasn't had a single real relationship with a woman (or a guy) that we know of since TB entered the picture, which is highly unusual (especially for him), though not in itself alarming. But if you add in everything else we know about TB, it doesn't seem far-fetched to at least consider the possibility that this entire situation might be the result of at least subtle manipulation or actions on the part of TB. I always get the impression the only people vehemently defending TB are the ones who don't really know anything about them, so if that is the case, I suggest you read up on them.

 

 

 

[Alja]

29 minutes ago, purplestargirl said:

IQ tests are a measure of how you function in daily life. At least that was explained to me when I asked about them. If anyone else can explain that better, please feel free to correct me/elaborate on that.

IQ tests measure how you master particular activity, like Raven matrices which test logical thinking. You can enhance your score by practicing it. People with very high or low IQ can be dysfunctional in daily activities. 

 

37 minutes ago, purplestargirl said:

What I bolded is what I'm fully aware of. Neuroplasticity is why the brain can be rewired.  

My psychologist employs a therapy which actually has a role in rewiring the brain's neural connections to form new ones through conditioning. I've been doing it for over a year and my anxiety and depression has nearly disappeared and my executive functions are working like they should (I have visual working memory issues). I've learned quite a bit about the various brain regions as a result of this therapy.

I like the idea behind biofeedback, was it this? When I was starting to write my thesis, I went across many popular articles about brain and its regions and functions, but then I found additional information which makes it more uncertain (i enjoy uncertainty, it`s nutritive for thinking). Wiring of brain has its part on it, because you always perceive whole, not sum of parts. There are parts of brain which are well known and bordered (like motor and sensitive cortex or speech areas), but the way brain makes conscious perception as whole is still a mystery. Most areas are not that strictly bordered and isolated minor damage won`t be that evident. Even right/left brain split is not as obvious thing.

[purplestargirl]

1 hour ago, Alja said:

IQ tests measure how you master particular activity, like Raven matrices which test logical thinking. You can enhance your score by practicing it. People with very high or low IQ can be dysfunctional in daily activities. 

 

I like the idea behind biofeedback, was it this? When I was starting to write my thesis, I went across many popular articles about brain and its regions and functions, but then I found additional information which makes it more uncertain (i enjoy uncertainty, it`s nutritive for thinking). Wiring of brain has its part on it, because you always perceive whole, not sum of parts. There are parts of brain which are well known and bordered (like motor and sensitive cortex or speech areas), but the way brain makes conscious perception as whole is still a mystery. Most areas are not that strictly bordered and isolated minor damage won`t be that evident. Even right/left brain split is not as obvious thing.

Neurofeedback, which is form of biofeedback.

[killuridols]

46 minutes ago, Alja said:

Gift is one part and it needs a lot of practice to make what you have inside as similar as you can in real life/for others. How long did Axl master November rain until it was ready? Since, like, 1983? You can`t master anything without gift, you can be better average, but not outstanding. If I went to art school and was not lazy to practice boring exercises, I would draw better, but I decided to do art for fun, not for living. On the other side, I could practice my fingers off on the guitar and I still won`t be better than average rhythm guitarist. See Slash, the way music passes through him, that`s gift (not to say he practices a lot).

Genius also has something with particular time and space and Guns were in right time on right place and made it into music (Yes, I totally agree with Aristotle that whole is more than sum of its parts, Guns are shiny example). Picasso got it and changed art in his epoch, that`s his major contribution, if I like his paintings or not. Beatles, Queen, Stones and others bought something new or re-imagined, changed music, changed their epoch with it, Britney was some overproduced act to be sold to masses. (Major music geniuses were also solo artists, Beethoven Mozart, Bach...)

I am a big picture person, by the way

That's what I said.

45 minutes ago, purplestargirl said:

Ah thank you. It was through IQ testing conducted through a clincial psychologist where I found out that I had learning issues related to visual-spatial processing.

You're welcome

42 minutes ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

I don't like them because of what they represent. In the military we have the ASVAB which is sort of but not exactly the same thing. The overall raw score doesn't really hold a lot of merit, but what matters is what's called your GT score...that determines what occupation the military will allow you to hold. I had free reign to do whatever I wanted (I hadn't yet gone to college at the time), yet this college graduate was relocated to having to chose low on the totem pole. This is why I feel the way I do about IQ tests.

Honestly, I don't know what IQ test represented in my case.... I was never told "you got in" because of it and I don't think anyone in my class was rejected because of it, as it is unlikely that if you have a learning disability you will not know since a young age. Most people have an average intelligence and most people will have that result in their test.

Looks like the test you had to take is just like any other aptitude test or occupational one, since it was done to place you somewhere in the totem pole, as you say.

IQ test will not place you anywhere, unless you have entered a competition where they are looking for the highest IQs.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2017 by killuridols

[Rocketqueen76]

12 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Honestly, I don't know what IQ test represented in my case.... I was never told "you got in" because of it and I don't think anyone in my class was rejected because of it, as it is unlikely that if you have a learning disability you will not know since a young age. Most people have an average intelligence and most people will have that result in their test.

Looks like the test you had to take is just like any other aptitude test or occupational one, since it was done to place you somewhere in the totem pole, as you say.

IQ test will not place you anywhere, unless you have entered a competition where they are looking for the highest IQs.

You are correct that it is partially an aptitude test, but you are also spot on about what you say about "looking for the highest"  What you are able to do is based on how smart they think you are. I chose to be a mechanic although they wanted me to go into intelligence. 

[killuridols]

41 minutes ago, Frey said:

You are so far off the mark (at least as far as this thread is concerned). Most people here have always stood up for Erin or other women and never blamed them for Axl's lack of family. Also, people don't just hate on Beta because she's a woman. As I said, there are plenty of legitimate reasons to distrust her and I'd say her son Fernando is equally as disliked as she is (if not more so). And the same goes for other men in the entourage, like Andrei. So how can misogyny be the explanation for this? Reasons to dislike TB and the freak show are manifold, but reducing it to simply misogyny makes no sense.

And yes, Axl already had plenty of issues long before TB came into play, but still the fact remains: Axl hasn't had a single real relationship with a woman (or a guy) that we know of since TB entered the picture, which is highly unusual (especially for him), though not in itself alarming. But if you add in everything else we know about TB, it doesn't seem far-fetched to at least consider the possibility that this entire situation might be the result of at least subtle manipulation or actions on the part of TB. I always get the impression the only people vehemently defending TB are the ones who don't really know anything about them, so if that is the case, I suggest you read up on them.

Spot on!

This thread is always fighting against patriarchy, gender violence and defending women's rights. We point out our fingers at any attempt of the patriarchism to put us down while we have @Frey as the chairman! Isn't it democratic and weird at the same time?

Ok, not to mock this, but I'm also wondering where this whole rant is coming from. Maybe this should be posted at the D&N section and I wouldn't even want to picture the amount of blood that would be spilled all over. There are real misogynists over there.

As for Axl not having a family, as far as Im concerned, I have always blamed it on himself. I think he's the solely master of his loneliness or at least the number one person to blame it on. TB may have an inherence but if he wanted to have a woman and children, there's actually nothing TB can do to prevent him from that.

If there is something to point about treatment of Beta in forums or social media in general, mysoginy is not one of them. From what I've observed, it is usually a really sickening CLASSISM and XENOPHOBIA, as she (and her family) is usually regarded to as "the nanny", "the house keeper", "the maid and her breed" plus "brazilian this", "brazilian that", "southamerican this and that". In other instances, they are also regarded as useless, incompetent, greedy, lazy and sycophants.

 

[purplestargirl]

4 hours ago, killuridols said:

Spot on!

This thread is always fighting against patriarchy, gender violence and defending women's rights. We point out our fingers at any attempt of the patriarchism to put us down while we have @Frey as the chairman! Isn't it democratic and weird at the same time?

 

Isn't he the chairman of the Slaxl commitee? Therefore my boss.

[killuridols]

23 minutes ago, purplestargirl said:

Isn't he the chairman of the Slaxl commitee? Therefore my boss.

I think he's chairman of the whole thread. That is his punishment 

[purplestargirl]

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

I think he's chairman of the whole thread. That is his punishment 

Might I ask why he's being punished?

[killuridols]

46 minutes ago, purplestargirl said:

Might I ask why he's being punished?

Because he has to deal with feminists and hormonal women from this thread. It ain't easy task! 

[purplestargirl]

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

Because he has to deal with feminists and hormonal women from this thread. It ain't easy task! 

Ha! Fair enough.

[Tori72]

3 hours ago, killuridols said:

Because he has to deal with feminists and hormonal women from this thread. It ain't easy task! 

Sorry. I don't think so. Men are as hormonal as women. They're human, too. I might be cranky today but i don't like this putting women down because they're supposedly so hormonal and men weren't.

Frey is being privileged being surrounded by so many smart and wise women as we are.  

[Andy14]

8 hours ago, killuridols said:

I think he's chairman of the whole thread. That is his punishment 

At least he feels important . As long as we let him feel important 

I only hope, @Frey, that you have printed your membership card and carry it always with you 

[killuridols]

4 hours ago, Tori72 said:

Sorry. I don't think so. Men are as hormonal as women. They're human, too. I might be cranky today but i don't like this putting women down because they're supposedly so hormonal and men weren't.

Frey is being privileged being surrounded by so many smart and wise women as we are.  

Do you by chance know the meaning of the word joke?

If not, look it up on the dictionary.

[Natalia92]

13 hours ago, Frey said:

You are so far off the mark (at least as far as this thread is concerned). Most people here have always stood up for Erin or other women and never blamed them for Axl's lack of family. Also, people don't just hate on Beta because she's a woman. As I said, there are plenty of legitimate reasons to distrust her and I'd say her son Fernando is equally as disliked as she is (if not more so). And the same goes for other men in the entourage, like Andrei. So how can misogyny be the explanation for this? Reasons to dislike TB and the freak show are manifold, but reducing it to simply misogyny makes no sense.

And yes, Axl already had plenty of issues long before TB came into play, but still the fact remains: Axl hasn't had a single real relationship with a woman (or a guy) that we know of since TB entered the picture, which is highly unusual (especially for him), though not in itself alarming. But if you add in everything else we know about TB, it doesn't seem far-fetched to at least consider the possibility that this entire situation might be the result of at least subtle manipulation or actions on the part of TB. I always get the impression the only people vehemently defending TB are the ones who don't really know anything about them, so if that is the case, I suggest you read up on them.

 

 

 

Vast majority of insults are always directed to Beta , if you look at the other sections of the forum or other forums you 'll see what I;m talking about.  As for people defending the other girls I don't know, maybe they did in the past but it was not long ago that I saw someone uploading that video of arrogant Slash calling Steph useless.  Misogyny. Many people condemn it in words but they lack the maturity to fully understand it so they reproduce it. Anyway I'm not gonna argue anymore here with anyone ("whaaat you just called Slash arrogant?") cause it leads us to nowhere

And no, I don't even believe that they are the most appropriate people to manage a band of this calimber.

[Tori72]

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

Do you by chance know the meaning of the word joke?

If not, look it up on the dictionary.

Nice.

[killuridols]

17 minutes ago, Natalia92 said:

Vast majority of insults are always directed to Beta , if you look at the other sections of the forum or other forums you 'll see what I;m talking about.  As for people defending the other girls I don't know, maybe they did in the past but it was not long ago that I saw someone uploading that video of arrogant Slash calling Steph useless.  Misogyny. Many people condemn it in words but they lack the maturity to fully understand it so they reproduce it. Anyway I'm not gonna argue anymore here with anyone ("whaaat you just called Slash arrogant?") cause it leads us to nowhere

And no, I don't even believe that they are the most appropriate people to manage a band of this calimber.

I posted that video as A FUCKING JOKE TO @Frey  but this is what happens when people like you and others come here carrying their personal problems and take it upon forum members, as if we were your scapegoats for whatever shit is going on in your lives.

Seriously, I dont give a flying fuck if I get banned from here but now this has gone too far, and Im not going to take it lightly because I will not let you or anyone else disrespect me by talking shit out of your asses.

You nor anyone else here dare to call me a misogynist or come to give me any moral lessons or imply that I "lack maturity to fully understand what misogyny is" because you know jack shit about me.

First of all, I live in one of the most misogynist regions in the world. In one of the most patriarchal and misogynist countries. Girls like @Andy14 and @Lumikki, who are European, oftenly have to endure with my tales of gender violence, gender crimes and how hard it is to go out at night here all by myself being a female. I oftenly share with them my experiences as a woman living in an oppressive system ruled by men who have no second thoughts to literally hit you, rape you or kill you just because they can. This happens in this country every single fucking day!! 

I have had to put up with misogyny for a good part of my life, from classmates, co-workers, bosses and boyfriends. It still happens, though, but now that I have more resources I can defend myself better........ Mistreatment in general, bullying and even a punch on my face. You have no fucking idea what I've gone through and anyone who reads this thread regularly (not the ocassional idiot who jumps on conclusions for reading one single post) know very well that I have ALWAYS stood up for Erin because I can understand her from the bottom of my heart. I know what is like to be in her shoes and have one guy destroying everything you have, but most importantly destroying your soul!

Also, I oftenly defend Steph when people call her a cheater because I think it is not fair to only remark her cheating since Axl was doing it to her too. Axl beat her up and thought he was entitled to keep in contact with Stephanie's baby right after he had hit his mother! What a joke!  And his ego was so big that he had the nerve to tell Dylan that the truth about his mother was in the lyrics of Chinese Democracy. Total demency!

Weeks ago I wrote a 15 pages essay on gender-based street harassment for the Master's Degree course I've been taking at post-graduate school. I had to read 10 different books and 25 articles on the subject of gender violence and patriarchy, as part of the bibliography I had to use for writing the paper. You say I dont have the maturity to understand what this all means? LMAO. I live through it every freaking day. I have the experience of it at the tip of my fingers. You.do.not.know.me.

Anyway, as it has been explained to you by @Frey before, the issue with Beta is mostly related to the perception of her and her children doing shady things to keep Axl Rose shielded and away from connecting with the real world. And also, from my point of view, she oftenly is discriminated for being Latinamerican and for having worked as a babysitter when she arrived to the USA.

Of course, these are our opinions. You can disagree with them and if you want to think she is a victim of misogyny as well, that's up to you. She probably is or has been one, as the latinamerican woman she is, there are high chances she's experimented it like the rest of us but, as far as GN'R forums and social media is concerned, in our opinion the reasons why she gets criticized derive pretty much from her actions as the person who's been in charge of Axl Rose life and career since the early 90s.

 

 

[alfierose]

Not entirely sure what sparked this argument but we've had a report about it so I am asking that it gets toned down a notch.

Also a reminder that getting too personal against another forum member is against the rules - this isn't aimed at any one person, I've not read the last few page to figure out  who said what.

Regarding the 'insider' stuff, I removed the links to the other site yesterday and would prefer it to be left alone, there is no credibility as far as I can tell to any of that stuff and I don't want to give it the oxygen of publicity.

Thanks

[Mary Cochrane]

Not starting an arguement, but im not a feminist. Women can be sexist and misogynistic to men aswell its not all one sided. Women say they dont want men to say sexual things about them yet these celebs sexualise themselves. And women say sexual things about men aswell. So no. You cant just be sexist to women and NOT men. Also, why are women fighting for womens rights? They have rights, they are probably the most privelleged in america england than in any country so for them to fight for rights in those countries are silly.

Why do women get paid 0.78p to the £1? Because women generally take off more time than men for a baby, holidays which is why men work harder there for get paid more. Sorry ladies but its true. 

Coming from a right wing non feminist non liberal woman. Just my opinion. About Axl, i dont think its right to keep shitting all over him with the whole slash thing people defended him, im sure if it was Axl people would just say "oh there the 90s Axl coming through." 

[Zoot]

4 minutes ago, Mary Cochrane said:

Not starting an arguement, but im not a feminist. Women can be sexist and misogynistic to men aswell its not all one sided. Women say they dont want men to say sexual things about them yet these celebs sexualise themselves. And women say sexual things about men aswell. So no. You cant just be sexist to women and NOT men. Also, why are women fighting for womens rights? They have rights, they are probably the most privelleged in america england than in any country so for them to fight for rights in those countries are silly.

Why do women get paid 0.78p to the £1? Because women generally take off more time than men for a baby, holidays which is why men work harder there for get paid more. Sorry ladies but its true. 

Coming from a right wing non feminist non liberal woman. Coming from a right wing ignorant non liberal woman. Just my opinion. About Axl, i dont think its right to keep shitting all over him with the whole slash thing people defended him, im sure if it was Axl people would just say "oh there the 90s Axl coming through." 

Fixed your post for you.

Can we please drop this subject? I don't have the patience to listen to one more WOMAN put down women for believing in equal rights.

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And to the newer people, please read through the thread and get to know everyone before making snap judgements about "negativity". The majority of the posters here love GNR dearly. Any negative opinions come from long term observations of the band and their managements behavior. Nobody here posts negativity just for the hell of it, or without researching their posts.

If you don't like in-depth, unbiased discussions about the history of the band then this thread might not be the one for you. There are a few threads in the Use Your Illusion section that you might like better. Or if its one or two people bothering you just put them on ignore.

But please don't make blanket statements about everyone in the thread without knowing any of us.

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And sorry for posting the AMA link in here. I didn't think it would be taken so seriously by some and just thought it'd be something to talk about.