GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2

[Padme]

12 hours ago, Politania said:

I dont understand that part where Beta said: "he did." he did what? what did she mean to say?

Long weird ass story. According to Zutaut one day Axl called him. He asked for help because Erin was having a breakdown. Axl didn't know how to handle it. Zutaut shows up at Axl's place. He takes Erin with him to his house. Later at some point Erin told Axl that Zutaut hit on her or something like it. Upon hearing the story it was Axl the one having breakdown  So that was the end of his friendship with Zutaut. Fast forward to CD days. Axl and his new people were having a hard time finding the right drums sound. For some reason Axl wanted the sound of Dave Grohl drums for the songs. Somebody came up with the idea to bring Zutaut back. Axl agreed to do it. Axl and Zutaut had a meeting. Axl asked him about this Erin incident. Zutaut strongly denied. So Axl believed him. For this new partnership to work there was one condition: Zutaut shouldn't be nowhere near Slash. Zutaut agreed. But one day at the studio or Zutaut's office, the phone rings... It was Slash. That was the end of Axl and Zutaut colaboration. I got this from Zutaut interviews and Marc Canter.

Moral of the story... If Zutaut lie about his relationship with Slash. Chances are he lie about his flirting (or whatever it was) with Erin. However not so long ago Zutaut and Erin were friends on FB. This is something I saw with my own eyes.

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

9 hours ago, Georgina Arriaga said:

That Saskatoon concert...not a single change of clothes, not a single piece of jewelry.....and performing in a way that is glorious and unforgettable.

Slash is mesmerizing...and he sings!!!

I want to go back in time!!!!!

You're so right about that, Axl's lack of jewellery and costume changes.  He seems so much more relaxed and comfortable that way.  Also, how good is it to watch Jungle without that stupid flame/firecracker thing going off after the intro?  

Edit: Aside from the ridiculous Manson face, I really like what he's wearing - shorts and shirt.  All black.  Simple.  

Edited May 13, 2018 by MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle

[Tori72]

2 hours ago, Padme said:

Long weird ass story. According to Zutaut one day Axl called him. He asked for help because Erin was having a breakdown. Axl didn't know how to handle it. Zutaut shows up at Axl's place. He takes Erin with him to his house. Later at some point Erin told Axl that Zutaut hit on her or something like it. Upon hearing the story it was Axl the one having breakdown  So that was the end of his friendship with Zutaut. Fast forward to CD days. Axl and his new people were having a hard time finding the right drums sound. For some reason Axl wanted the sound of Dave Grohl drums for the songs. Somebody came up with the idea to bring Zutaut back. Axl agreed to do it. Axl and Zutaut had a meeting. Axl asked him about this Erin incident. Zutaut strongly denied. So Axl believed him. For this new partnership to work there was one condition: Zutaut shouldn't be nowhere near Slash. Zutaut agreed. But one day at the studio or Zutaut's office, the phone rings... It was Slash. That was the end of Axl and Zutaut colaboration. I got this from Zutaut interviews and Marc Canter.

Moral of the story... If Zutaut lie about his relationship with Slash. Chances are he lie about his flirting (or whatever it was) with Erin. However not so long ago Zutaut and Erin were friends on FB. This is something I saw with my own eyes.

Yup, read the same thing.

Out of my LOONG life I already lived, I always believe the woman who claimes to have been hit at. They can be facebook friends now 25 years or more after. But I strongly believe Erin. Maybe he didn’t even think it was hitting like comforting her too physical. I’m not joking. That was the 80s/90s and many, many men had no sense of lines, assault or being too friendly whatsoever. That’s what I have seen with my own (and I repeat old) eyes many times. 

Edited May 13, 2018 by Tori72

[Padme]

27 minutes ago, Tori72 said:

Maybe he didn’t even think it was hitting like comforting her too physical.

I thought about that possibility as well. I would hag or even kiss a friend of mine who is freaking out and needs to be calm down and comforted  But only Erin and Zutaut know what in fact happened

[Tori72]

6 minutes ago, Padme said:

I thought about that possibility as well. I would hag or even kiss a friend of mine who is freaking out and needs to be calm down and comforted  But only Erin and Zutaut know what in fact happened

Maybe. Maybe he wasn’t that innocent. If Erin claims he hit on her it must have been more than a little, comforting kiss or hug, you know?

[Lio]

3 minutes ago, Tori72 said:

Maybe. Maybe he wasn’t that innocent. If Erin claims he hit on her it must have been more than a little, comforting kiss or hug, you know?

Yeah. I'm sure she wouldn't take a hug as coming on to her. I'm convinced most men know when they've gone too far (it's not that hard, really), but they would hardly ever admit it. Instead they'll just say the woman is exaggerating or being a drama queen, or that she's imagining things.

Maybe she did make it up. I wouldn't know why, only they know what happened.

But I'm sure that if it happened, Erin wasn't exaggerating and Zutaut knows he went too far.

[Politania]

5 hours ago, Padme said:

Long weird ass story. According to Zutaut one day Axl called him. He asked for help because Erin was having a breakdown. Axl didn't know how to handle it. Zutaut shows up at Axl's place. He takes Erin with him to his house. Later at some point Erin told Axl that Zutaut hit on her or something like it. Upon hearing the story it was Axl the one having breakdown  So that was the end of his friendship with Zutaut. Fast forward to CD days. Axl and his new people were having a hard time finding the right drums sound. For some reason Axl wanted the sound of Dave Grohl drums for the songs. Somebody came up with the idea to bring Zutaut back. Axl agreed to do it. Axl and Zutaut had a meeting. Axl asked him about this Erin incident. Zutaut strongly denied. So Axl believed him. For this new partnership to work there was one condition: Zutaut shouldn't be nowhere near Slash. Zutaut agreed. But one day at the studio or Zutaut's office, the phone rings... It was Slash. That was the end of Axl and Zutaut colaboration. I got this from Zutaut interviews and Marc Canter.

Moral of the story... If Zutaut lie about his relationship with Slash. Chances are he lie about his flirting (or whatever it was) with Erin. However not so long ago Zutaut and Erin were friends on FB. This is something I saw with my own eyes.

thank you so much for this explanation. it seems that Axl was in contact with Erin in Chinese Democracy days

[Padme]

2 minutes ago, Politania said:

thank you so much for this explanation. it seems that Axl was in contact with Erin in Chinese Democracy days

No, he wasn't in contact with Erin at the time. It seems he just decided to take it out of his chest. So he asked Zutaut about that incident.

[Politania]

1 minute ago, Padme said:

No, he wasn't in contact with Erin at the time. It seems he just decided to take it out of his chest. So he asked Zutaut about that incident.

ohhh ok. Erin was in his thoughts all the time... maybe even now

[Padme]

1 minute ago, Politania said:

ohhh ok. Erin was in his thoughts all the time... maybe even now

I don't know what to make of it. It was something Tom Zutaut said in an interview. Zutaut and Axl seemed to be friends since GN'R signed with Geffen. Zutaut helped them a lot a many ways. Around the time of the making of CD it seems nobody around Axl had a clue  I don't know who had the idea to bring Zuataut back. It was some kind of last resort at the time. I guess Axl felt betrayed by a close friend after Erin told him about the incident. Maybe Axl wanted the other side of the story. But I really don't know why Axl brought that up

[killuridols]

Erin doesn't like Zutaut. Erin doesnt like Niven. Erin doesn't like Goldstein. I know this very well but this Zutaut thing, geez.... I dont have the quote at hand, I will look for it later, but basically what Zutaut told Erin as "advice" regarding her relationship with Axl is one of the most piece of shit things you could ever say to a victim of violence. Typical asshole justifying the violence and blaming the victim. I have no doubts his way of calming down Erin was inappropriate, just by judging what he told to her...... awful guy 

 

[killuridols]

Here it is...... 

Back To The Jungle

It’s February 2001 and, somewhere in New York city, Tom Zutaut’s phone is ringing. On the line is Jimmy Iovine, founder of Interscope and head of Geffen and A&M records and he’s asking Tom – a man that Geffen had sacked two years previously – the most unlikeliest of questions: if he’ll come back to work. For Guns N’ Roses.

“Look,” says Iovine, “since you left Geffen, no-one has been able to get a record out of Guns N’ Roses. Not only did you get records out of them, but you got extra records that weren’t even part of the contract. No-one can wrangle a fucking record out of ‘em but you! Would you do it?”

Things have changed, Zutaut tells Iovine. “I would do anything to help Axl,” he says, “but I’m not even sure he’ll speak to me. Plus my family are in New York and being on Guns N’ Roses watch is ²⁴⁄₇. When you’re working with Axl there’s no time schedule. It’s starting at 6am or 3am or 2am. It’ll probably rupture my marriage. I don’t know.”

The next day Guns manager Doug Goldstein calls. “I hear you talked to Jimmy,” he says. “We don’t know what else to do. We can’t seem to get the record finished and it’s great stuff – would you be willing to come back?”

The day after that, he gets a conference call from Iovine and Goldstein. “How about you just come out and have a meeting with Axl?” they ask.

“OK – just a meeting,” agrees Zoot. And so it was that Tom Zutaut found himself sucked back into the world of GN’R, sitting in a studio in LA a couple of days later for a meeting with Axl Rose.

 

“And the first thing he asked me,” remembers Tom, “He was sitting on a sofa in the studio and I was sitting in a chair and he looked at me and he said: ‘Before you and I can do anything, I have to know the truth about Erin Everly.’”

 

 

The Truth About Erin Everly

 

[...] There was a whole heap of pain in the relationship. Both Axl and Erin had dysfunctional family backgrounds, and tensions between them spilled over into public arguments and violent spats. They got married in April 1990 – Everly later claimed that she only accept his proposal after Axl came to her house at 4am, claiming he had a gun in his car and would kill himself if she didn’t marry him. [...] 

As Guns N’ Roses’ A&R man, confidant and fixer, Tom Zutaut was often dragged into their domestic disputes. “I’d get a phone call from Axl basically saying, ‘I need your help, you’ve gotta come over here right now!’ So I would go over there and they’d be screaming at each other and I would take Erin back to my house with my pregnant wife and we would look after Erin, chill ‘em out, and a few hours later – or maybe the next day – Axl would ring and say ‘Okay, I’m good now: bring her back.’ Then I would take Erin back. This happened more times than you can imagine.”

In 1994, an anonymous friend of Axl Rose told People Magazine that “Erin portrays herself as a victim and him as the evil aggressor. From what I witnessed, she was the aggressor.” Zutaut certainly felt that sometimes Everly deliberately enraged Axl, and eventually confronted her about it.

“I said to her: ‘A lot of kids can’t help repeating what they grew up with. But we have to try and learn from our parents and do better. I’m not gonna sit here and have you blame everything on Axl anymore, because the truth is that if you wanted to get out of this cycle, you could. But it requires you to leave him or it requires you to stop blaming him. I mean, you guys need to go into therapy or something.’" 

How did she take that advice? “She got really mad at me,” says Zutaut. “So her response was to go back to Axl and claim that I hit on her.”

  

 

Today, Everly has an unlikely ally in Beta Lebeis, Axl’s Personal Manager. Interviewed for this story, Beta says she believes Erin: “He did [make a pass at her],” she says. Whatever the truth, despite their antagonistic and abusive relationship, Axl believed Everly. “It put this personal distrust between Axl and I,” says Zutaut.

 

It wasn’t the only disintegrating relationship. During this same period Rose was slowly drifting apart from all the other members of the band. “During Appetite songwriting and recording was kind of more of a collaborative process that involved everybody, but from Use Your Illusions forward the band did their stuff and then Axl came in and put the frosting on the cake,” says Zutaut. “He worked in his own time and no one was really allowed to be in the studio when Axl was there.”

But when it came to finishing therecords, Axl realised he couldn’t do everything by himself. “During the mixing of Use Your Illusions, I got a phone call from Axl,” says Zutaut. “I was in Hawaii on holiday and he actually apologised to me and said, ‘Look: in spite of this thing that happened with Erin – whether you did it or you didn’t – there’s no one I trust with the sound and the vibe of Guns N’ Roses more than you. Other than myself, no one gets it but you. I can’t finish this record without your help – I need you now.’”

Touched, Zutaut again tried to reassure Axl that he hadn’t propositioned his ex-wife. “And he was like, ‘I don’t know if I believe you – she’s a beautiful woman and I think you probably did hit on her. But,’ he goes, ‘I don’t care, I’m not with her anymore and I need your help.’”

 

Understanding Axl

Ten years on, in 2001, Axl once again needed Zutaut’s help to finish a project. But not until Zoot tried again to explain what had happened between him and Axl’s ex-wife. “After I told him, he said: ‘Can I really truly believe that – do you swear to God?’ And I said, ‘Axl, I swear to God.’ I said, ‘She was a beautiful woman, but I had no physical attraction to her whatsoever.’ I said, ‘The only reason that I took her into my home was because you asked me for my help. I had no interest in her. I was afraid that you would hurt her and she would call the cops and things would get fucked up for the band and for you. But I took her away when you called me because you were my friend. I never expected you and I to become friends. And it really tore me apart. We were inseparable for two years and I’m helping you,and then this woman bites me in the arse by lying to you and you still don’t believe the truth.’

“And he’s like, ‘I just can’t believe that fucking bitch lied to me’,” says Tom. “He finally looked at me and said, ‘Okay, we’ve got that out of the way – now we can move forward.’”

 

 

 

Source: https://www.loudersound.com/features/guns-n-roses-the-making-of-chinese-democracy

 

Edited May 13, 2018 by killuridols

[GingerHair]

4 hours ago, Lio said:

Yeah. I'm sure she wouldn't take a hug as coming on to her. I'm convinced most men know when they've gone too far (it's not that hard, really), but they would hardly ever admit it. Instead they'll just say the woman is exaggerating or being a drama queen, or that she's imagining things.

Maybe she did make it up. I wouldn't know why, only they know what happened.

But I'm sure that if it happened, Erin wasn't exaggerating and Zutaut knows he went too far.

Zutaut was also the guy who said to Erin that Axl, poor innocent little thing, acted the way he did because he couldn't stop reproducing the models he had grown up with and she should kind of get along with it. .  

What surprises me in this story is that Axl still cared about what happened between Zutaud and Erin 10-12 years before. It surprises me because, personally, I couldn't care less about anything regarding my exes.

And one could say, ' it's not about her, he was just annoyed because he trusted the guy and the guy hit on his girl' . Well, didn't Axl have sex with Steven's girlfriend (Adriana) and wasn't them all sharing girls anyway? Sometimes, I don't get those guys...or I prefer not to get or I will be pissed off.

Edited May 13, 2018 by GingerHair

[killuridols]

Notice how Erin was treated like an object or like a child. She was "taken" from Axl's home to Zutaut's home, like one moves a pillow, a chair or a TV set.

Conveniently handled by these two men, they both decided on her mental state, her body and her feelings. She was basically an object of possession (and obsession) for Axl. He and Zutaut cannot work because they are fighting over Erin, like two kids fight over a toy.

It is so disgusting.... but this is the way women have always been treated. Reminds me a lot of when I studied Law. We used to learn about the Romans, the ancient Greece, and women were basically people with no power of decision for anything, equitable to children. They went from under their father's protection to under their husband's protection. A man was always the one in charge of them.

And this shit described in this article pretty much reminds me of that, which makes me upset and that's why I'll always be on Erin's side. Her only fault was being a young girl in love with a man who didn't deserve her.

Edited May 13, 2018 by killuridols

[Tori72]

12 minutes ago, GingerHair said:

Zutaut was also the guy who said to Erin that Axl, poor innocent little thing, acted the way he did because he couldn't stop reproducing the models he had grown up with and she should kind of get along with it. .  

What surprises me in this story is that Axl still cared about what happened between Zutaud and Erin 10-12 years before. It surprises me because, personally, I couldn't care less about anything regarding my exes.

And one could say, ' it's not about her, he was just annoyed because he trusted the guy and the guy hit on his girl' . Well, didn't Axl have sex with Steven's girlfriend (Adriana) and wasn't them all sharing girls anyway? Sometimes, I don't get those guys...or I prefer not to get or I will be pissed off.

Because for those kind of men, a woman or relationship has a lot to do with posession and power. And Axl (and obviously Zutaut too), are one of these men. In Axl’s macho mind, Zutaut took what was Axl’s. That’s also why Axl can have lovers on the side like Adriana and his girlfriend Erin can not. The whole dispute between Axl and Zutaut was not about Erin who might have been assaulted and felt terrible and threatened about it. It was not about Zutaut doing things that were not what Erin wanted. It was possesion and power and Zutaut hitting on her deminished Axl’s posession of and power over Erin. Same goes for domestic violence, by the way. 

Edited May 13, 2018 by Tori72

[Blackstar]

Slash also believed Zutaut about the Erin incident. In his book he treats the story as another case of Axl being paranoid.

---

Zutaut's version about his falling out with Axl in 2001 is that it was because of a movie screening that was supposed to be private, not because of receiving a phone call from Slash. He's implying that Beta or someone from Axl's close circle set him up. It's possible that Beta didn't want him around.

It’s difficult to explain why Zutaut was sacked, but it centres around the fact that Axl had requested a private screening of the movie (a standard request). When he turned up to find strangers there, he felt that Zutaut had misled him over the nature of the screening. “He said, ‘Who the fuck are all those people in there?’” says Tom. “‘I was told that this was my private screening and I don’t know who these fucking people are! I can’t believe you lied to me about this – you told me it was a private screening! You’re fired!’”

Zutaut, meanwhile, claims to have been set-up by someone looking to discredit him – an accusation denied by the Axl Rose camp. Whatever the truth, Zutaut was off the album. 

https://www.loudersound.com/features/guns-n-roses-the-making-of-chinese-democracy

[killuridols]

Axl already had Stephanie and he kept bugging Erin, sending her flowers, presents and invitations. This is described in that People Magazine from 1994.... Erin tells how wherever she moved, Axl found her. He has people following her around.

It's fucking nuts and this Zutaut thing proves he was still obsessing about her a decade later. 

Hopefully he's not like that anymore. But it looks to me Axl has always had feelings for Erin.... but probably he didn't know how to make them healthy feelings...  

Lately he seems to still care about her... I really hope it is not obsession, that it is something nice, that he could pick the good about their relationship and live in peace with that. The SCOM litho from the AFD box set gave me hopes they are in peace now..... 😔 🙏

[GingerHair]

3 minutes ago, Tori72 said:

Because for those kind of men, a woman or relationship has a lot to do with posession and power. And Axl (and obviously Zutaut too, are one of these men.) In Axl’s macho mind, Zutaut took what was Axl’s. That’s also why Axl can have lovers on the side like Adriana and his girlfriend is not. The whole dispute between Axl and Zutat was not about Erin who might have been assaulted and felt terrible and threatened about it. It was not about Zutaut doing things that were not what Erin wanted. It was possesion and power and Zutaut hitting on her deminished Axl’s posession of and power over Erin. Same goes for domestic violence, by the way. 

I guess what it's all about. 

Even nowadays, if a man is flirting with you and you say NO, he'll just keep doing. If you say: I am with my boyfriend/husband/partner and he'll be back soon, they guy will walk away out of respect for the OTHER MAN. Or a man is hitting on you and then, your boyfriend arrives, he'll apologise to the boyfriend, not to you! Imagine this on the 80-90's .

Axl was always very hypocrite about being in 'open relationships' because it he imposed this as a condition but made it rather unilateral. I can only imagine what Erin went though. On this aspect, Stephanie Seymour was older and more self-assured in dealing with him and she walked away when it became clearly toxic. I have to give credit to her for it. 

[killuridols]

1 minute ago, GingerHair said:

On this aspect, Stephanie Seymour was older and more self-assured in dealing with him and she walked away when it became clearly toxic. I have to give credit to her for it. 

Stephanie was 22 when she started dating Axl but I think what helped her is what many women dont have when they want to leave a violent relationship: money.

She was very successful as a model, she had means to get the fuck away and she also had another man by her side, who was powerful. That helped her too.

Erin was alone and bankrupt. When Zutaut tells her she can leave if she wanted, thats a total fallacy. She couldn't leave, she had nowhere to go, she was in a bad mental state and she didnt have any sort of help. 

 

[GingerHair]

5 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Lately he seems to still care about her... I really hope it is not obsession, that it is something nice, that he could pick the good about their relationship and live in peace with that. The SCOM litho from the AFD box set gave me hopes they are in peace now..... 😔 🙏

The way he mentioned her on the AC/DC show and the SCOM litho make me hope it's the case.

She also seems to be in peace with him (even much more than I'd imagine) and she moved on with her life, which is great! 

[Georgina Arriaga]

In exactly 3 weeks the tour in Europe will begin...wow! How time has passed...in the meantime I hope you all enjoy Saskatoon (I love that name) because is really worthy.

Have a nice mother's day!!!!

[Tori72]

Where does the Saskatoon thing come from all of a sudden? 

[killuridols]

1 minute ago, Tori72 said:

Where does the Saskatoon thing come from all of a sudden? 

Because the AFD shit box set is not selling at all? 🤣

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

1 minute ago, killuridols said:

Because the AFD shit box set is not selling at all? 🤣

Well, there are rumours that Axl is the one who leaked it.   But then I think, why?  Why would you charge 1k for a box set and then release an entire show for free?  So, I don't really believe it.  Whoever it was, I'm sure grateful! 

[GingerHair]

11 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Stephanie was 22 when she started dating Axl but I think what helped her is what many women dont have when they want to leave a violent relationship: money.

She was very successful as a model, she had means to get the fuck away and she also had another man by her side, who was powerful. That helped her too.

Erin was alone and bankrupt. When Zutaut tells her she can leave if she wanted, thats a total fallacy. She couldn't leave, she had nowhere to go, she was in a bad mental state and she didnt have any sort of help. 

 

Money is certainly a factor in the big-big majority of violent relationship and definitely played in favor of Stephanie. Also, Stephanie had a proper career and she seems more mundane, which made her more equipped to not put up with too much shit.  

I think in Erin's case, along with the money, she had this romantized idea that she could help to heal him. She left him the moment she lost the desire to keep fighting his demons. She is not to be blamed for this. A lot of women, especially young women, think this way and good that she eventually realised that she didn't have to keep taking the burn of being with him.