British Politics

[Padme]

1 hour ago, wasted said:

So hard or soft Brexit is really just a brexit, we just will never get a good deal like they said. And then there's Cornyn who might crash the party, but it's still some sort of brexit. We'll never be a force in the EU. 

It really did seem like the old folks and generation dole just voted us out. But they were really only voting to help a small group of elite business people. 

I think what you wrote does clarify the situation. I was lost between all the various forms of brexit and Corbyn shennanigans. 

It just seems crazy to do brexit then go back to the 70s with Corbyn. 

I just think we are in denial. We are bankrupt. We don't make anything. We have been paying salaries and welfare with borrowed money for years. But we still think our standard of living is because of our work ethic or superiority. And both parties sell us a right load of bollocks every election. But the noose is getting tighter. Brexit on the surface may have a certain section of the population owning that. But it was probably just old foggies and some weird pride aka denial. I might have speculated too far. 

I think it's what you said though. It's stable shambles at the moment. 

Forget Corbyn, he didn't created this mess. It is not up to him to fix anything. As of today he is just the leader of the opposition party. Eventually if he is elected PM he can fix all the things that Blair fucked up. But he is not PM at the moment.

 There is a government who blamed the EU for domestic policy issues. Cuts and austerity were necessary back in 2008 to some degree. But there was no plan after the crisis, a plan to fix schools, security, NHS  and no new rules for banks credits and landers. Whatever problems the EU has those problems need to be fixed from the inside. Someone who is an outsider can't change any EU policy. Globalisation is here to stay. You can't take yourself out from the world. There should be regulations about immigrants and the jobs they should do. And new rules and regulations for factories that want move to a third world country in order to hire cheap labour. Global problems require global solutions.  I don't think it is up to the UK to decide about the form of Brexit. You are either in or out. Norway for example has an agreement with the EU but they never were members of the EU.  The UK could have a Norway like deal. But there is the exit process first.

[wasted]

12 minutes ago, Padme said:

Forget Corbyn, he didn't created this mess. It is not up to him to fix anything. As of today he is just the leader of the opposition party. Eventually if he is elected PM he can fix all the things that Blair fucked up. But he is not PM at the moment.

 There is a government who blamed the EU for domestic policy issues. Cuts and austerity were necessary back in 2008 to some degree. But there was no plan after the crisis, a plan to fix schools, security, NHS  and no new rules for banks credits and landers. Whatever problems the EU has those problems need to be fixed from the inside. Someone who is an outsider can't change any EU policy. Globalisation is here to stay. You can't take yourself out from the world. There should be regulations about immigrants and the jobs they should do. And new rules and regulations for factories that want move to a third world country in order to hire cheap labour. Global problems require global solutions.  I don't think it is up to the UK to decide about the form of Brexit. You are either in or out. Norway for example has an agreement with the EU but they never were members of the EU.  The UK could have a Norway like deal. But there is the exit process first.

From Trump I learned you can't turn the plane around. We just have to keep borrowing and go down in flames. We are never culturally going to accept we destablize countries and are actually at war with these countries. We have to ostrich the shit out of it. We could have another good 50 years or so and at some point maybe we can change the name of the country and just edge slowly out the back door. Don't try to hold on to something that has already gone.  

[AtariLegend]

11 minutes ago, Padme said:

Norway for example has an agreement with the EU but they never were members of the EU.  The UK could have a Norway like deal. But there is the exit process first.

While I think that would probably be better than what we'd end up with, the reality is it's just lesser form of membership where we've kicked ourselves out of the decision making process. It'd be better either to just have a second referendum (it's not the Tories are winning the next election anyway) or just say "sorry guys this was a bad idea" and call the whole circus off (not going to happen).

14 minutes ago, Padme said:

 Eventually if he is elected PM he can fix all the things that Blair fucked up. But he is not PM at the moment.

I have to be honest, I'm starting to get confused myself as to what the Labour stance is. In Parliament they (he himself) sometimes answer things in a way that suggests there'll be a referendum on the deal or refuses to answer a question on whether Labour would give a second referendum even just as recently as last week (before they told people to abstain on the single market resolution). Other times they outright deny it, other times they allude to this not being the case. Their policy seems (to me) to create enough confusion and ambiguity to win another election so that they can take whatever stance they want. 

It's when he's slapping down the Blarities that he appears to be a brexiteer, but the rest of the time he's seems to be suggesting the opposite. 

If he did become PM though after a hard brexit, the Tories will have created a self fulfilling policy. How are Labour going to be able to afford to move forward without the single market? The Tories are going to make sure Corbyn (or the next Labour PM) can't afford anything by the time they do get into power.

[Padme]

17 minutes ago, wasted said:

From Trump I learned you can't turn the plane around. We just have to keep borrowing and go down in flames. We are never culturally going to accept we destablize countries and are actually at war with these countries. We have to ostrich the shit out of it. We could have another good 50 years or so and at some point maybe we can change the name of the country and just edge slowly out the back door. Don't try to hold on to something that has already gone.  

No, the former African colonies got independence after WWII. There is a lot of this mess it was created by themselves. The get a billions in aid form rich countries yet they are still staving. Something in there it is their own wrong doing.

 

14 minutes ago, AtariLegend said:

While I think that would probably be better than what we'd end up with, the reality is it's just lesser form of membership where we've kicked ourselves out of the decision making process. It'd be better either to just have a second referendum (it's not the Tories are winning the next election anyway) or just say "sorry guys this was a bad idea" and call the whole circus off (not going to happen).

I have to be honest, I'm starting to get confused myself as to what the Labour stance is. In Parliament they (he himself) sometimes answer things in a way that suggests there'll be a referendum on the deal or refuses to answer a question on whether Labour would give a second referendum even just as recently as last week (before they told people to abstain on the single market resolution). Other times they outright deny it, other times they allude to this not being the case. Their policy seems (to me) to create enough confusion and ambiguity to win another election so that they can take whatever stance they want. 

It's when he's slapping down the Blarities that he appears to be a brexiteer, but the rest of the time he's seems to be suggesting the opposite. 

If he did become PM though after a hard brexit, the Tories will have created a self fulfilling policy. How are Labour going to be able to afford to move forward without the single market? The Tories are going to make sure Corbyn (or the next Labour PM) can't afford anything by the time they do get into power.

During the referendum campaign Labour was for remain. Now they say they respect the outcome. On one hand it makes they want to respect the result. Yet at the same time Brexit is not what they want it. And I don't think they have too much of a plan either. But I think they are speculating or gambbling with the possibility that the Tories would give up on Brexit at some point before 2019.  Chances are Labour real problem is working class people who lost their job because the factories moved to Poland or Romania. I would like to hear their plan for those people.

[Padme]

A new twist in this soap opera. The Time broke the news but there is more information elsewhere. Tories asked the Lib Dem for help, double U turn 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/04/lib-dems-may-back-government-on-case-by-case-basis-say-sources

[wasted]

To a degree that's true in the middle east too. But we are more overtly involved and trying to regime change in ME. So I see the logic in not inviting them over for tea. But it's part of deal we do with the devil to take over the world. This is globisation. It's been going this way for so long, how are we really going to changes things around now. To retreat back into ourselves to preserve some sort of identity that doesn't really matter seems a bit strange. 

[wasted]

12 minutes ago, Padme said:

A new twist in this soap opera. The Time broke the news but there is more information elsewhere. Tories asked the Lib Dem for help, double U turn 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/04/lib-dems-may-back-government-on-case-by-case-basis-say-sources

They all just seem to jostling for power and their personal stake in it. But I see no plan. Brexit is a big shift in our identity and no one's really addressing it in that way. We are being defined by what the EU thinks of us. The whole of the UK is now like the England football team. 

[AtariLegend]

23 hours ago, Padme said:

A new twist in this soap opera. The Time broke the news but there is more information elsewhere. Tories asked the Lib Dem for help, double U turn 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/04/lib-dems-may-back-government-on-case-by-case-basis-say-sources

Bye bye, Lib Dems at the next election, if they did.

I was a Lib Dem supporter pre-2010 believe it or not. If they think like Clegg that left leaning voters are going to repeatedly support a party that abandons their policies to suck up to the Tories, they're away with the faeries.

Edited July 5, 2017 by AtariLegend

[wasted]

I don't think we can turn the plane around but globisation is a problem. Just because everyone is so different. So the rules for a farmer don't work for a wall street guy. That's probably true for Brexit and the divided UK. It seems like common sense that having completely different countries that have to work together isn't going to work. 

Meanwhile our govs have got us into deep debt and now want us to pay it back. UK needs to do what the US do, never pay it back. The people shouldn't pay it back, the government wasted that on foreign wars and a welfare state. There's no way to pay it back and politicians operate short term. 

But if the bill every needs to be paid, my advice would be walk away. 

So I think globalisation failed and a lot of people don't believe in it. It's too much to take on. Unite the world. Once we go to movies together most of us have to see a movie we hate. 

[Padme]

Eerrr... It was an error. Now the leader of the Leave says the referendum an was an error

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/05/brexit-error-vote-leave-dominic-cummings

I really wish the government would say the same thing. And stop Brexit before is too late

[wasted]

We aren't drone bombing Africa are we. It's definitely an interesting comparison because the religious differences. I think culturally Africa is more has been westernized more? They have players in the World Cup in the Premier league, their culture isn't so extremist. When seeking asylum they probably fit in easier. Syrian refugees probably get a shock turning on MTV or see British women weaing nothing in -4 weather. They probably don't get treated well by society in general. I'm sure how well I'd do in Syria. After 10 years I might go mental and drive my scooter into a shop. I think we are just hoping our tolerance will make up for terrible foreign policy. The wars have been  a pointless disaster. And one tge media and leaders refuse to address head on. 

[AtariLegend]

Japan and the EU agreed to a free trade deal, it's not going to be coming in to effect though for a few years until after we'd purged ourselves of the evil Europeans who've been stealing our NHS jobs!

A certain right wing tabloid responded by running stories about Japan during WW2 as soon as they heard a deal was about to be struck.

It's okay though, once we're outside of the EU we'll be able to take 10 years to negotiate free trade deals with the rest of the common wealth (that the EU doesn't already have deals with) such as the likes of Tonga and Samoa. We'll still be able to sell weapons to the Saudias too.

Edited July 6, 2017 by AtariLegend

[AtariLegend]

Oh btw. 

The guy who was head of the BBC's Daily Politics shows (with Andrew Neil), along with the Andrew Marr (another Murdoch/Torie lackey) show and that nonsensical Wembley debate for the EU referendum last year with Boris's make Britain great again speech is leaving his BBC post to become head of communications for Theresa May.

 

[Padme]

1 hour ago, AtariLegend said:

Japan and the EU agreed to a free trade deal, it's not going to be coming in to effect though for a few years until after we'd purged ourselves of the evil Europeans who've been stealing our NHS jobs!

A certain right wing tabloid responded by running stories about Japan during WW2 as soon as they heard a deal was about to be struck.

It's okay though, once we're outside of the EU we'll be able to take 10 years to negotiate a free trade deals with the rest of the common wealth (that the EU doesn't already have deals with) such as the likes of Tonga and Samoa. We'll still be able to sell weapons to the Saudias too.

Yeah, and the rightwing Leave supporters and promoters thought that Brexit was the end of EU 

[wasted]

Well that remains to be seen. If Trump taxes German cars 35% that could have an impact. Skoda will be top selling car by 2025. 

[DieselDaisy]

Labour traditionally are actually more Eurosceptic than the Tories.

 

[wasted]

8 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Labour traditionally are actually more Eurosceptic than the Tories.

 

The 90s wasn't real Labour was it? Blair was more down the middle? Noely G was doing coke with Blair at No 10. 

[DieselDaisy]

4 minutes ago, wasted said:

The 90s wasn't real Labour was it? Blair was more down the middle? Noely G was doing coke with Blair at No 10. 

They used to call Blair at Labour HQ, 'Tory Tony'.

[wasted]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

They used to call Blair at Labour HQ, 'Tory Tony'.

Then he was hanging out with Bush at the National Prayer Breakfast, that far right christian pow wow with all the top neo cons. 

90s was kind of a laugh compared to now. 

[Graeme]

Just wanted to post this video to show @Len Cnut that when Frankie Boyle isn't using his "stage" voice he's actually quite soft spoken and doesn't really sound that different to my "acceptable newscaster Scottish".

 

[DieselDaisy]

35 minutes ago, wasted said:

Then he was hanging out with Bush at the National Prayer Breakfast, that far right christian pow wow with all the top neo cons. 

90s was kind of a laugh compared to now. 

The two main parties are really just internecine overlapping coalitions of different interest groups from across a broad spectrum. Blair was probably closer to the left-wing of the Tories than he is of the far-left of Labour, his own party - Brown also. Generally some of them sacrifice their own ideologies for 'government', thus the left of Labour during the Blair era or even the traditional tory right wing under Thatcher, but they sort of endure sullenly - and this is where the government whips come into proceedings.

[bucketfoot]

On 05/07/2017 at 6:24 PM, Padme said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/05/brexit-error-vote-leave-dominic-cummings

The Guardian *rolls eyes*

On 05/07/2017 at 6:24 PM, Padme said:

I really wish the government would say the same thing. And stop Brexit before is too late

23 hours ago, AtariLegend said:

Japan and the EU agreed to a free trade deal, it's not going to be coming in to effect though for a few years until after we'd purged ourselves of the evil Europeans who've been stealing our NHS jobs!

A certain right wing tabloid responded by running stories about Japan during WW2 as soon as they heard a deal was about to be struck.

It's okay though, once we're outside of the EU we'll be able to take 10 years to negotiate free trade deals with the rest of the common wealth (that the EU doesn't already have deals with) such as the likes of Tonga and Samoa. We'll still be able to sell weapons to the Saudias too.

 

21 hours ago, Padme said:

Yeah, and the rightwing Leave supporters and promoters thought that Brexit was the end of EU 

Dear me. Remainers still banging on and on and on and on and on...... Never, EVER going to get over it.

Edited July 7, 2017 by bucketfoot

[DieselDaisy]

85% of the general election was in favour of parties committed to EU withdrawal. If the United Kingdom cared about overturning the results of the referendum, they should have really opted for the Liberal Democrats  - heck there was even a large swing away from the thoroughly Europhile SNP, north of the border.

[Padme]

6 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

85% of the general election was in favour of parties committed to EU withdrawal. If the United Kingdom cared about overturning the results of the referendum, they should have really opted for the Liberal Democrats  - heck there was even a large swing away from the thoroughly Europhile SNP, north of the border.

And both parties were against Brexit during the referendum campaign. They are not supporting Brexit because they like it. But because of those 52%. Are those 52% still sure they did the right thing or are some of them regreting or doubting what they did?

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, Padme said:

And both parties were against Brexit during the referendum campaign. They are not supporting Brexit because they like it. But because of those 52%. Are those 52% still sure they did the right thing or are some of them regreting or doubting what they did?

That is not true. The Tories were officially neutral and there was also significant cross-party collaboration for withdrawal: five (Conservative) cabinet ministers and ten opposition (Labour) MPs for instance.