Nu GnR: Doomed to fail

[DizzyReed63]

This is some great stuff to read through - you piece it all together and the messy picture becomes more clear.

To add another anecdote to the Finck/Bucket saga, during the 2002 tour, Finck would update his personal website with a photo from whatever city they just played, called it "Birdwatch." He had a couple "controversial" posts we discussed on the forums - in one image, he placed a KFC bucket on the head a bear statue. Then after the Philly debacle, he posted a strange mosaic that quickly deleted, full of weird mysterious messages. And then they all went away a day or two later.

This was the discussion I could find about it, but no image was ever saved. Madison describes it pretty well:

But let's analyze it.  What do you think the images mean?

1. There's several timepieces. One of them is a guard with a clock for a face, who is blocking the exit from a cell.  The other is a watch. Maybe they're facing some kind of deadline or time is running out for them to do something. Maybe complete the album? There's also the number '97 in that image -- Does anyone know of anything significant that happened that year for GNR?

2.  The image of a woman being injected with needles. Almost looks like botox needles. Perhaps this could represent Axl and the way he is trying to preserve his youth.

3.  The image of lips ... Perhaps means people are talking about the band.

4.   The image of a church wrapped in barbed wire with evil eyes peering out. Perhaps they feel handcuffed by authority (or the record label).

5.    The iimage of a man wearing pants vs. a man wearing a dress. Perhaps this shows someone has two sides to their personality -- maybe a stage personna and a real one?

I don't have an interpretation for the other images.

So, anyone's else's thoughts?

 

[Sydney Fan]

4 hours ago, RONIN said:

Right - it seems almost like Interscope/Azoff and Axl were playing chicken with each other. Axl probably expected a UYI style grand launch and the label just wanted to do the bare minimum without having to throw even more cash into the CD money pit for promotion. It's like they screwed each other but Best Buy got the worst of it. The label probably didn't make much if any profit with CD (they may still be in the red with CD) and Axl shot himself in the foot by refusing to promote his magnum opus thereby guaranteeing that it would underperform. As a consequence, this probably helped seal the fate of Chinese Democracy 2. 

I guess Azoff saw the writing on the wall given that he was pushing hard for a reunion. From what I understand, Azoff had to move mountains to get Chinese Democracy released and work out a deal that Interscope and Axl would both sign off on. The relationship between Interscope and Axl was probably at a complete standstill after they cut him off the tab in 2004. The Merck fiasco in 2006  no doubt made things even more acrimonious. 

Consider the irony of the whole situation. You're talking about one of the biggest bands of all time (rock royalty) - led by one of the greatest singer/frontmen of all time - with a near perfect multi-platinum track record and a global fanbase thirsty for new music. How bad does the situation have to be that the label needs motivation to even release an album that they supported with the biggest recording budget..ever? How bad does the situation have to be that they kill the followup album even after Chinese went multi-platinum? Working with Axl must have been an unbearable situation where the ROI didn't seem worth the headache.

It will be interesting to see if Interscope gets involved with a new GnR album - after the NITL tour becomes the #2 biggest tour of all time by the end of 2018. IIRC, Axl still owes them another album. Maybe they'll do a greatest hits package and wash their hands of the relationship - or maybe they already released Axl from whatever contract they had him under? It's been nearly a decade since Chinese and they haven't bothered to release anything with or without Axl's approval.  It could be that perhaps the stipulation for supporting another release would only be if Slash was back in the fold - seems plausible enough. Maybe that's part of the reason the reunion started to shape up - there was no way Axl could release an album otherwise. 

Any record executive will full well know with slash and duff in the band, more slash is the reason this tour is making money. Which means Interscope wiould have given Axl an ultimatum  - any new music you release that Interscope will promote will be with slash and duff" if not Interscope will sever all ties.

[Sydney Fan]

6 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

Remember CD came out and there was no major promotion for it. Axl pretty much disappeared for the next year and was apparently non responsive to label requests that he does some interviews. I don't know how true that is though.

Think there was definitely some shenanigans, I mean the whole having a video made for better and not releasing it? that perplexes me.

Makes me wonder if the recordings were yanked from Axl and the record company mixed it themselves and told Axl this is going to be the final recording or they would sever all ties, or possibly sue to recoup any of the recording or mixing costs.

[Blackstar]

The two people Axl has worked successfully (to him) with in his life in regards to production, Clink and Costanzo, are both basically more sound engineers than producer. Maybe that means that Axl can't work with an actual producer; he just wants someone who can capture what he has in his mind about sound and production.

[ToonGuns]

On ‎30‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 10:42 PM, RONIN said:

 

Buckethead also drove the Interscope execs crazy and Roy Thomas Baker was probably not Bucket's biggest advocate. So right from the top to the bottom, people wanted Bucket out.

What did Bucket do to RTB? I figured RTB had more class than that.

Whole NuGnr band should have been built around Axl+Bucket. Nothing else mattered. Axls screams over Bucket solos is something else. That would have been a killer line up.

One day (pretty please) we get a GnR lost tapes boxset of this period.

[DieselDaisy]

Clink isn't a beep producer. He cut his tooth on Nevermind the Bollocks - no that was one of the mixers but he isn't a beep guy either. 

[Free Bird]

1 hour ago, ToonGuns said:

Axl+Slash. Nothing else mattered. Axls screams over Slash solos is something else.

Fixed it

[Blackstar]

Clink is not a beep guy, but he captures what they want him to. In Appetite they wanted him to capture the raw sound of the band and he got it. In the UYI's Axl wanted the big sound and Clink got it.

[RONIN]

2 hours ago, ToonGuns said:

What did Bucket do to RTB? I figured RTB had more class than that.

Whole NuGnr band should have been built around Axl+Bucket. Nothing else mattered. Axls screams over Bucket solos is something else. That would have been a killer line up.

One day (pretty please) we get a GnR lost tapes boxset of this period.

Exactly. The band should have been an Axl/Buckethead partnership and it appears like it was going that way before Robin Finck rejoined and Del/Tommy began their antics to diminish Bucket. It seems absolutely bizarre to me that Axl chose to have a powerhouse of talent like Bucket playing second fiddle to Robin. Especially given that Robin had quit the band earlier (for valid reasons). Guess Axl really loves NIN. I cannot imagine any other band letting Finck play more leads than Buckethead. The whole thing is straight up insane really.

I don't think RTB had anything to do with Bucket's ouster but RTB is a traditionalist and Bucket's process was riffing in a chicken coop that smelled like dogshit while the hardest of hardcore porn was playing in the background. Maybe RTB loved Bucket's process but it seems unlikely.

[RONIN]

Without sounding presumptuous, what took so long to get the album out?

And without sounding facetious, what didn't? There aren't too many issues of the hundreds [we ran into] that happened as quickly as anyone would have preferred, from building my studio; finding the right players; never did find a producer; still don't have real record company involvement or support; to getting it out and mixed and mastered.

All that aside, it's the right record and I couldn't ask for more in that regard. Could have been a more enjoyable journey, but it's there now. The art comes first. It dictates if not the course [then] the destination artistically.

For me, once the real accompanying artwork is there with a few videos and some touring, the package was achieved and delivered.

And to do so at this level in terms of quality, both artistic and performance-wise, both on record and live, is something that's a miracle at minimum and something that wouldn't have happened, no matter how anyone tries to convince others, with old Guns, regardless of anyone's intentions. It was just as ugly in old Guns, regardless of our success.

What were your expectations in terms of what Best Buy would do to promote the album?

Best Buy has been great. Going with Best Buy was a way to work out a deal with Universal and we were fortunate enough to work with Irving [Azoff, as manager] and deal more directly with Universal. I've asked for information regarding their role in working the record but that hasn't come yet so I'm not able to tell what Universal has or hasn't done, although Zach [Horowitz, Universal Music Group president/COO], or whoever's behind the international efforts, is doing great. It's more than appreciated and a welcome relief.

Unfortunately [going with Best Buy] didn't change us having to rely on Interscope as much as we'd hoped. The opinions expressed or "jumped" on publicly regarding promotion seem to be [about] my or our involvement with mainstream media -- talk shows, rock magazines and dot-coms -- which have generally held negative public stances toward myself or the band for years, [and they] unfortunately have not been resolved. Efforts are being made to understand the relationships and evaluate how best to proceed.

Our focus was in getting the record deal done while finishing the album, which hit many an unexpected bump or sinkhole in the road right up until the actual release. We never intended a huge public rollout, especially without resolving certain issues, and no one ever suggested us doing so, though Interscope's communications with Best Buy in these areas may not have been as clear as anyone would have preferred.

Our approach, for better or worse, has always been to work the record over the course of the following tour cycles, with attempts to forge new or better and hopefully redefined relationships with the different forms of media that may be interested along the way. In regard to our promotion, it was based around certain agreements with Universal, Interscope, our management and legal [teams] that unfortunately never happened. I won't get into specifics but am beginning to address some of those issues in my own way as opposed to "working together," and we'll see how that plays out.

What are your thoughts on how Universal has handled the album?

Unfortunately I have no information for me to believe [that] there was any real involvement or effort from Interscope. I'm not saying there wasn't. But in my opinion, without [Interscope Geffen A&M chairman] Jimmy Iovine's involvement, it doesn't matter who anyone talks to or what they say -- virtually nothing will happen from their end.

I do know [that] I've been asking for a marketing plan for over five years and still haven't got anything. We've asked for a complete breakdown of promotion expenses and efforts from all parties but unfortunately I've received very little information, if anything, so far. On another note, the draft booklet leaking and, I believe, the early shipping of preorders and the inclusion of the early draft booklet for the release was through involvement with Interscope, which was a mess. That's not to say they don't work for other artists and make things happen. I feel they work very hard for whatever it is they truly want to sell, whether it's good or ...

I can say how the band feels, and that is that to a man they hate the record company other than Universal International with a passion. And that's with me talking with them about the record company negatively hardly ever, if at all. They're not blind: They hear the talk and see the results. Our involvement with Interscope has been more than frustrating for them. It's not like anyone here wants to have any negative views, impressions or opinions. They don't go around bitching about things all the time and they don't let it get in the way of whatever they're supposed to do here, but it is what it is.

Here's how things worked until they were no longer involved-that is, until recently. Jimmy [Iovine] and whoever would come down to the studio. Things would be good for a month. Then, according to whoever was involved at the time from their side, someone above Jimmy would start putting pressure regarding us on him, Jimmy would start pressuring others at his label [and they] would begin doing the same with us. We get that it's just how business -- and perhaps especially this business -- tends to work, but after a month of this the whole thing would get ugly and extensively interfere with getting anything productive done, and near the middle of the third month we'd arrange for Jimmy to come down again. They'd go away happy and the entire process would repeat itself over and over and over.

[Former Interscope Geffen A&M president] Tom Whalley brought in Roy Thomas Baker to produce and [A&R executive] Mark Williams suggested Marco Beltrami, among others, to play strings on the album. And Jimmy had an idea for low guitar in a track and the EQ on a drum part. That's it as far as I'm aware. They were all good things, but in all sincerity, that's it. Now, what efforts were made to help keep Universal or Vivendi off us for as long as possible could very well have been extensive, and in that regard either would have been or would be most appreciated. I like Jimmy, but I've never understood him in regard to us or this album. Everything's always been, "That's easy," or "We can fix that, no problem," but unfortunately rarely added up to any kind of reality for us until [he found] Bob Ludwig for mastering.

We'd love to have their and Jimmy's support after this. But to continue at this juncture feeling as we do, keeping things so behind the scenes, unfortunately feels like the same 'ol same 'ol for all of us and, at least momentarily, a bit much to digest. Jimmy did point us in the right direction for mastering, and I believe he's sincere in his appreciation of our record but still for whatever reasons gave up pretty early in those areas.

We feel that, unfortunately, we've never been really anything all that much more other than a throw it at the wall, see if it sticks, no real ground work, something to take advantage of, last quarter, cook the books, write-off, fuck this headache, hoping to get lucky scam. And, unfortunately, for all their nice words and assurances, nothing that's happened since the week or so before the release has shown us much of anything to the contrary. So at least in regard to the U.S., for the most part I don't look at it like we have a record company -- I look at it for the most part like we have friendly but otherwise cutthroat loan sharks, and we were lucky to get what we got but feel we could have done more if they were at least, especially with some of their backgrounds, a bit more involved creatively. So in light of pirating and the mess the major labels are in, I have no sympathy for the record companies, based on our experiences in the U.S.

http://www.a-4-d.com/t835-2009-xx-xx-axl-rose-speaks-the-billboard-qa

[janrichmond]

1 minute ago, RONIN said:

Especially given that Robin had quit the band earlier (for valid reasons).

why did he leave? actually did they all leave or did Axl sack any of them? Genuine question 

[RONIN]

Just now, janrichmond said:

why did he leave? actually did they all leave or did Axl sack any of them? Genuine question 

Finck felt like he had spent two years recording at least 2 albums worth of material and it looked like none of it was going to get released. He seemed annoyed that there were no vocals added to any of these songs in the two years he was there (from '97 to late '99). The first drummer, Josh Freese quit for similar reasons. 

Finck rejoined and left again for sort of the same reasons + his (rumored) irritation with all the bullshit and lack of respect towards others that comes when touring with Axl. Ditto w/ Buckethead.  + he was constantly bullied by Del and Tommy - and he didn't get along with Finck. So there's no music getting done and then all kinds of soap opera style drama - you have few friends in the band + the lead singer is MIA as usual - for a prolific artist like Bucket, that was unacceptable. He would have (allegedly) endured the BS w/ Del and Tommy and even played second fiddle to Finck if Axl had just shown up and released music.

All of the guys left of their own volition - for pretty much the same reasons Duff and Slash left - nothing was getting done because Axl never showed up. According to Matt, they had recorded over 400 hrs of jams for the UYI follow-up album prior to Slash quitting. 

Brain apparently couldn't deal with Axl's touring drama. Playing at midnight and leaving at 4 AM for him was ridiculous. Sound similar to Duff's reason for leaving?

Tommy left because the gravy train was winding down and he had family drama. Pittman was fired for his stupid drunk rants against the reunion. 

 

[ToonGuns]

19 minutes ago, RONIN said:

Bucket's process was riffing in a chicken coop that smelled like dogshit while the hardest of hardcore porn was playing in the background. Maybe RTB loved Bucket's process but it seems unlikely.

I always thought that was just a very over-exaggerated rumour. Did we ever get confirmation of this?

[janrichmond]

@RONIN did any of those guys do any interviews after they left? or were they issued with NDAs as the NITL group are rumoured to have signed?

[Blackstar]

2 minutes ago, ToonGuns said:

I always thought that was just a very over-exaggerated rumour. Did we ever get confirmation of this?

Iirc Tom Zutaut was the source of this story.

[RONIN]

2 minutes ago, ToonGuns said:

I always thought that was just a very over-exaggerated rumour. Did we ever get confirmation of this?

Not sure - I could be mistaken, but I remember reading this from a Tom Zutaut interview possibly. yep - blackstar just confirmed.

1 minute ago, janrichmond said:

@RONIN did any of those guys do any interviews after they left? or were they issued with NDAs as the NITL group are rumoured to have signed?

They were all given NDA's so information is sparse. Buckethead has never spoken about his time in the band. Finck has been pretty cagey with what he has revealed. The most info about NU Guns comes from Tommy's interviews but the best info comes from Brain's interviews. Josh Freese has also revealed some interesting stuff about that era. Bumblefoot has some great interviews about his experience in the band as well. He went through a lot of the things Buckethead did.

[janrichmond]

@RONIN cheers for all the info, i'm gonna have to do some catching up on interviews (and learn who's who)

[Blackstar]

@ToonGuns

By the time Zutaut joined the Chinese Democracy project, Buckethead had left, frustrated by what he saw as the band’s inactivity. Axl wanted him back. So Zutaut arranges a meeting with Brian/Bucket at a deli in LA and listens as the guitarist explains why he left: he doesn’t get on with Roy Thomas Baker, he’s frustrated at the whole situation – at coming in to the studio everyday when Axl’s not even there, playing the same parts over and over. Axl’s his hero, he tells him, but he just spent a year going nowhere. He doesn’t think the record will ever come out and he just has to move on with his life.

Tom leans in to him: “Look,” he says, “I got almost six albums out of GN’R. I’m talking to Axl everyday. I feel pretty good. I think I can get the record finished.

“You’re a genius,” he tells him, “I’d love to work with you. You’re one of the few people that can be in GN’R and make GN’R special the way Slash made it special. I promise you that I will be in the studio withyou everyday and I will help you get what you want done and I won’t tell you to be Slash.”

What, Zutaut asked, could he do to make the recording experience better for him? Suddenly, says Zutaut, Brian Carroll was transformed in front of his eyes. “He went into Buckethead mode,” says Tom. “I mean, I was talking to Brian, who was confiding in me, and suddenly he was Buckethead and he was telling me some story about how his parents were chickens and he was a chicken – how his mum was a hen and his dad was a rooster. I couldn’t tell whether it was fantasy or reality or who I was even talking to. But he believed it!

“Then it’s like Brian comes back and he’s kinda saying, ‘You know I’d really like to make a movie of my life story and how I was raised in a chicken coop – it’s the only place where I really feel comfortable’.”

Which is when Zoot has a brainwave. “Well, you’ve just told me how you don’t feel right in the studio,” he says. “What if we built you a chicken coop in the studio for you to record your guitar parts?’

Brian’s jaw drops: “Would you really do that?”

“Well,” says Tom, “it’s my job to find out whatever it is that will help you get the best creativity out of yourself.”

“If I could have my own chicken coop in the studio,” says Buckethead, “my own world to live in, I could play a lot better.”

Two days later, it was built. “It’s like an apartment within the studio that’s a chicken coop,” says Zutaut. “He’s got his chair to record and a little mini sofa in there, and there’s, like, a rubber chicken with its head cut off hanging from the ceiling and body parts. It’s totally Buckethead’s world. It’s like Halloween in the chicken coop: part chicken coop, part horror movie. We built the coop and then he brought in all his props and toys and put straw on the floor! You could almost smell the chickens.

“No one was allowed to go in there apart from the assistant engineers to adjust mics – you could not destroy the spirit and karmic vibe of the coop, his personal retreat. But – it’s chicken wire. You could stand outside and talk, looking through, but nobody was allowed in there with his hacked up dolls and rubber chickens and heads…”

With Buckethead back to work (Q: Does he come in with a mask on and a KFC bucket? Zutaut: “He’s got a bucket, but he doesn’t wear it always – just sometimes for inspiration”), once again Chinese Democracy is a work in progress, with a lead guitarist ensconced in a chicken coop, wailing away. (Q: Does everyone call him Brian or Buckethead? Zutaut: “Just Bucket. Like, ‘Whassup, Bucket?’”)

Interviewed for this story, Beta Lebeis stresses that the coop was just a bit of fun. “In every band, people have their own ways of being creative – their own things that are personal to them,” she says, “and Buckethead loved chicken coops. And he loved cemeteries – he just loved that shit. So it was just a fun thing to do… It’s like Dizzy Reed – he loves drinking that drink, Jagermeister. So somebody made his this huge guitar and you open it up and there’s Jagermeister inside – just a fun thing. And [the coop] didn’t cost money or anything – think about it, it’s just wire. You buy wire and you do it yourself. People say ‘Oh my gosh, that’s part of the money we spent on the album.’ It has nothing to do with that. It’s something you do in three or four hours. Just for fun, to play a joke on somebody.”

As the weeks went by, the joke started to wear thin. “There was a bit of creative tension with Roy Thomas Baker,” says Zutaut. “Not because Roy is doing anything wrong or isn’t a great producer or anything like that – but you know some people have friction. It’s like oil and water. It might have been cultural differences.”

It could well have been, what with Roy being an eccentric, flamboyant, British rock god producer and Buckethead being, well, a chicken.

“So Bucket comes and says he needs a TV so he can sit in his chicken coop and watch porn,” says Tom. “And that seemed to really inspire him to record some great stuff. He comes armed with whatever DVDs he needs and he is doing really great stuff…”

Buckethead is knee-deep in hardcore chicken shack heaven when one evening Axl turns up for the session. Zutaut: “Axl sees that Bucket is running this porn – and it is pretty hard core stuff, it’s not soft porn by any stretch of the imagination – and Axl is really disturbed by it.”

Axl asks Zutaut how long this has been going on and why it was happening. He’d thought the idea of building the chicken coop was cool but this? “He said music is about energy and we are transferring a creative spirit and vibe within the music,” says Zutaut. “He said, ‘I really can’t have the vibe of dirty depraved porn being a part of my record – it is really not what this record is about, you know?’

“Axl is a firm believer that the energy or soul of everyone involved in the process comes through in the final artistic piece – so he works really hard to make sure what comes in and goes out is pure and right for his vision. Which is why Axl was always very disturbed about the former Gunners’ heroin use and what effect it had on their creativity.”

So – as no one’s allowed in the chicken coop, not even Axl – he takes Bucket outside for a talk about how it’s really not right to watch this kind of stuff. “Then Axl left and Bucket was pretty despondent,” says Zutaut. “He disappeared for a few days because he was pretty torn up about it. Not because he was angry or because he thought he should be able to watch what he wants. I think it was more because of the emotional implications that Axl brought up to him: that it wasn’t right to be inspired by shit like that.”

If that wasn’t weird enough, there was also an occasion where Buckethead appeared to be inspired by shit itself. Axl, says Zutaut, had a couple of wolf dogs – three quarters Timber wolf and one quarter dog – and during the recording the dogs had puppies. When Zutaut’s daugher came to the studio, Axl offered to give her a puppy as she’d recently lost her dog. A couple of days later he brings in a puppy. “It’s still on mother’s milk so it’s not like we can take it right away – it’s still got to spend another couple of months being nursed – and it’s the cutest little thing,” says Tom, “but it goes into the chicken coop and takes a dump. And because no one is allowed in there, we wait for Bucket to come in so that we can get his permission to clean it up. So Bucket shows up later to work on his parts and he is mic-ed up so he can record and we hear through the speaker, ‘Oh I love the smell of dog poop…’

“So we’re like, ‘Okaaaaaay…’ Roy Thomas Baker or one of the engineers says, ‘Well, Bucket we will get it cleaned up’ and Bucket says ‘Don’t take it away. I love the smell of dog poop – leave it right here, don’t let anybody touch it.’ Three days later, the studio stinks to high heaven of dog poop, and finally the studio could not bear it and had it cleaned up. When Bucket came in the next day, he was like ‘Where is my dog poop, man? I told them not to clean it up.’ And was generally bummed out that it had been cleaned up… And in the meantime, the wolf puppy poop had inspired him for a few days to do some great work…”

Zutaut never did get the puppy – it had three months of weaning to go and he was off the project before then.

http://teamrock.com/feature/2016-11-23/guns-n-roses-the-making-of-chinese-democracy

[RONIN]

1 minute ago, janrichmond said:

@RONIN cheers for all the info, i'm gonna have to do some catching up on interviews (and learn who's who)

A treasure trove of information: http://www.a-4-d.com/f19-gn-r-interview-archive

Start from 1991-93 for Izzy/Steven drama, 94-00 for old guns drama (the live era interviews are gold), 97-2004 for Nu Guns drama, 2005-2007 (only if you're desperate) , 2008-2014 (mixed bag) Axl interviews are gold here because he's even more bitter and cynical than usual since the dream has blown up in his face and he's just realizing it. Finck and Brain's interviews are always worth reading. Tommy's are hit/miss - sometimes he sounds like an Axl sycophant, other times he sounds completely over the whole thing. Bumble's best interviews start around the time the nu guns lineup is crumbling : 2012-2015

[janrichmond]

3 minutes ago, RONIN said:

A treasure trove of information: http://www.a-4-d.com/f19-gn-r-interview-archive

Start from 1991-93 for Izzy/Steven drama, 94-00 for old guns drama (the live era interviews are gold), 97-2004 for Nu Guns drama, 2005-2007 (only if you're desperate) , 2008-2014 (mixed bag) Axl interviews are gold here because he's even more bitter and cynical than usual since the dream has blown up in his face and he's just realizing it. Finck and Brain's interviews are always worth reading. Tommy's are hit/miss - sometimes he sounds like an Axl sycophant, other times he sounds completely over the whole thing. Bumble's best interviews start around the time the nu guns lineup is crumbling : 2012-2015

I only need the later stuff, i think i've read most stuff pre 95, it's the old Nu Guns that i'm uneducated in I love that site but never ventured past Slash leaving but i'll check out the later stuff now,thanks!

[RONIN]

20 hours ago, DizzyReed63 said:

This is some great stuff to read through - you piece it all together and the messy picture becomes more clear.

To add another anecdote to the Finck/Bucket saga, during the 2002 tour, Finck would update his personal website with a photo from whatever city they just played, called it "Birdwatch." He had a couple "controversial" posts we discussed on the forums - in one image, he placed a KFC bucket on the head a bear statue. Then after the Philly debacle, he posted a strange mosaic that quickly deleted, full of weird mysterious messages. And then they all went away a day or two later.

This was the discussion I could find about it, but no image was ever saved. Madison describes it pretty well:

But let's analyze it.  What do you think the images mean?

1. There's several timepieces. One of them is a guard with a clock for a face, who is blocking the exit from a cell.  The other is a watch. Maybe they're facing some kind of deadline or time is running out for them to do something. Maybe complete the album? There's also the number '97 in that image -- Does anyone know of anything significant that happened that year for GNR?

2.  The image of a woman being injected with needles. Almost looks like botox needles. Perhaps this could represent Axl and the way he is trying to preserve his youth.

3.  The image of lips ... Perhaps means people are talking about the band.

4.   The image of a church wrapped in barbed wire with evil eyes peering out. Perhaps they feel handcuffed by authority (or the record label).

5.    The iimage of a man wearing pants vs. a man wearing a dress. Perhaps this shows someone has two sides to their personality -- maybe a stage personna and a real one?

I don't have an interpretation for the other images.

So, anyone's else's thoughts?

 

Vague memories of this - thanks for posting it. The rumor was that Finck was pissed at Axl's behavior on that tour. Same thing happened in 2006 up till when he quit. He didn't like the way Axl was disrespecting the crew by showing up late and treating them like crap. There was a story posted here years back about how he smashed some poor sound guy's laptop during a tantrum and Finck demanded that Axl replace the guy's laptop or he was out right then and there. 

[DizzyReed63]

I'll add another anecdote that you might find interesting.

When they were trying to replace Bucket for the 2006 tour, it was a very last minute thing, as we all know. A guitarist who had never played in a big touring band, who was/is a friend of 4tus, was flown out to LA for a chance to take that spot. Because names can't be used, I know a guy who knows him very well - and the story went that he had one day to rehearse with the band. They told him they had a deal that was going bad with another guitar player (Bumble), and they needed someone on the back-burner if necessary.

The band he played with in LA included Stinson, 4tus and Frank - who 4tus also brought in. He mentioned that Stinson loved him and said he hoped he got the gig. To go along w/ some of the other stories in this thread about how Tommy didn't care for Bucket or Bumble, this guitar player was/is not a shredder. He's more like another 4tus. So that would make sense. Tommy was also in charge of the rehearsals and decision.

He said the guys told him how it would be an awesome paying gig, and they rarely saw Axl. He flew back home, cleared his schedule, and shortly before those Hammerstein shows, like a couple weeks before, management told him things worked out w/ the other guitar player and thank you for your time.

 

Edited November 29, 2017 by DizzyReed63

[AXL_N_DIZZY]

Looking back the “window” for Chinese/2000 Intentions to have taken off and been treated like a proper follow-up to the Illusions, etc. by fans and the media was 1999-2001 (i.e. “What The World Needs Now” SPIN article-era). Most folks’ post-UYI “Axl/Guns fatigue” has subsided by then.

People forget it- but also at that time it was not necessarily considered a detriment that Axl had recruited players from NIN, the ‘mats, and Vandals, and was seeking an “updated” sound. Rightly or wrongly Slash and Duff seemed like antiquated “hair metal” dinosaurs in comparison- and their post-Guns efforts (i.e. Snakepit, Ten Minute Warning, etc.) hadn’t exactly set the world on fire.

The failed 2002 NA Tour combined with the wild success of VR and Contraband in 2004/05- which featured Slash/Duff/Matt teaming up with a “modern” vocalist in Weiland- was a mortal blow to Chinese-era Guns though. From then on perceptions changed for the general public IMHO- and Slash and Duff were then seen as possessing the “magic” Guns potion (though Axl/Guns retained a certain loyal fan base and enjoyed the occasional high moments/achievements)- and anything from Guns w/o their involvement deemed “deficient”. 

At any rate- though I am low on details- that 1999 to mid-2001 (i.e. around when Bucket became ill and Euro tour that Axl wasn’t aware of canceled) time frame strikes me as such a key period in all this. Would love to know who or what kept Axl/Guns in “dry dock” (for the most part) during that critical timeframe...

Edited November 29, 2017 by AXL_N_DIZZY

[loko]

19 hours ago, RONIN said:

Pittman was fired for his stupid drunk rants against the reunion. 

 

I think it was another way around. He was fired for unknown reason (maybe tension with Slash and Duff?), and then made this rant. For me best proof of this thing is that Chris mixed and co-create commercial for reunion showed in movie theatres.

[Fashionista]

23 hours ago, RONIN said:

Finck felt like he had spent two years recording at least 2 albums worth of material and it looked like none of it was going to get released. He seemed annoyed that there were no vocals added to any of these songs in the two years he was there (from '97 to late '99). The first drummer, Josh Freese quit for similar reasons. 

Finck rejoined and left again for sort of the same reasons + his (rumored) irritation with all the bullshit and lack of respect towards others that comes when touring with Axl. Ditto w/ Buckethead.  + he was constantly bullied by Del and Tommy - and he didn't get along with Finck. So there's no music getting done and then all kinds of soap opera style drama - you have few friends in the band + the lead singer is MIA as usual - for a prolific artist like Bucket, that was unacceptable. He would have (allegedly) endured the BS w/ Del and Tommy and even played second fiddle to Finck if Axl had just shown up and released music.

All of the guys left of their own volition - for pretty much the same reasons Duff and Slash left - nothing was getting done because Axl never showed up. According to Matt, they had recorded over 400 hrs of jams for the UYI follow-up album prior to Slash quitting. 

Brain apparently couldn't deal with Axl's touring drama. Playing at midnight and leaving at 4 AM for him was ridiculous. Sound similar to Duff's reason for leaving?

Tommy left because the gravy train was winding down and he had family drama. Pittman was fired for his stupid drunk rants against the reunion. 

 

Yeah, Billy Howerdel (who was also with GN'R from 97 to 99) and Freese actually made the first APC album while waiting for Axl to finish up. 

Also, Finck was pissed because he had given up the Fragile tour and a good gig with Cirque de Soleil to be in GN'R and it seemed like it was going nowhere. 

Buckethead and Finck both resented the fact that each was given an equal amount of starpower in the band. Robin is on record calling Bucket a "stunt guitar player." I don't think either liked the other at any point or even gelled musically. This is another case of Axl thinking he could just mix and match guitar players without any regard for their musical inclinations or personality issues (see Slash and Paul Tobias, or Slash and Zakk Wylde).

According to Matt, GN'R actually recorded 7 songs, not just jams, but fully fledged songs. Duff also alluded to a fully fledged song almost going on a Jackie Chan movie soundtrack in 1996. All that they needed were vocals and lyrics. Duff also said they did demos of songs during the Zakk Wylde period. Duff and Izzy also wrote a dozen songs for GN'R in the spring of 1995. There is as Matt said likely hundreds of instrumental songs from not only the post UYI period but probably from every era of the band. Even guys who have no reason to lie said the CD era lineups recorded in the area of 40-60 songs. But what did these songs lack? Vocals and lyrics.

And according to Duff, the reason Matt was ACTUALLY fired was because he dared to criticize Axl's work ethic. Not the dramatic "defense of Slash" scene or the battle with Paul Tobias that's been told over and over.

The one constant sadly since 1988 has been Axl's unwillingness or inability to lay vocals down. This also helped push Izzy out - Izzy said the UYI albums were recorded in like, 2 months, but they had to wait an entire year for the vocals to be laid down. If you believe Izzy, we could've had UYI in late 1989 or 1990 instead of 1991. 

Also @RONIN, did you know that the first time NuGNR performed as a full band with Axl was literally only a night before the very first show? The band rehearsed as a group (without Axl) for 2 months before Axl decided to show up the night before. That's a great way to inspire band morale, eh?

"First of all, you need to switch your whole schedule around... Rehearsals started at midnight...  We rehearsed the set for a month. He didn't show up. We'd always get that call at 4 in the morning, saying, 'Uh oh. He might come.'"  (Brain, I'd Hit That, 02/15)

"It was the day before the gear was supposed to leave... The crew had been there since 8 in the morning, setting up. They have to break it down and the gear has to leave, literally the next morning. ...We rehearsed the set, two and half hours... It's probably 3 in the morning, now. Axl calls from Malibu. He's coming. And he wants to see the whole set again. He wants to watch the show. Everybody's like, OK.
...We're on this big soundstage and [they bring] a little couch next to the soundboard, right in front of the sound guy... Well, an hour goes by. 'Is he REALLY coming?' The road crew, everybody's asleep by now, next to their gear. 'Yeah, he wants to come, but the problem is, he wants to see the WHOLE show, pyro and everything.
So, we're like, 'Wait. I think, each time the pyro guy hits the fuckin' thing, it's like $300,000 for each bomb that's gonna go up. But, we're going to do it on this soundstage, and in order to make that happen, they got to get the fire department down here.' Now the fire department comes down, but I think they're digging it. They're thinking, 'I get to watch Guns N' Roses rehearse, so whatever.' They show up.

Now, it's probably 5AM... We're playing [the set], we've been up since 12 o'clock, the road crew has been up since 8AM, for 24 hours. [Axl's]'s in the chair with his arms crossed, just watching. Bombs, fireworks, everything's fuckin' going off... I'm playing November Rain. They have the curtain of sparks bouncing off my cymbals, burning my face, getting on my shorts and shit like that. The door opens - it's DAYLIGHT! You see people coming to work.
We end with Paradise City, doing the fuckin' shuffle thing [in the last part of the song], they blew the confetti shit... And dude, I'm not joking, it's like 7.30/8 in the morning. It's the most surreal moment. In my mind, I'm just going, 'Who's gotta fuckin' clean the confetti? What are we doing? Some poor guy has to sweep fuckin' six inches of confetti.'
We hit the last note. [Axl] gets up, walks out. Never said a word, didn't see him. We just get up, everybody goes home and the next time we saw him was in Rock in Rio. That's sort of Guns in a nutshell. The chaos and what happens." (Brain, I'd Hit That, 02/15)

"Thursday night [12/28/00] was the first time I sang a set with these guys... The first time I sang a set in about 8 years." (Axl, Las Vegas, 01/01/01)
 

"Our first show’s Rock in Rio and I thought, ‘Wait, what’s it going to sound like with Axl? Where is Axl? Oh here’s his helicopter coming in.’ The first time I ever played a real show with him was in front of 250,000 people! I was thinking, ‘How’s this song supposed to start again?’ Because some he was supposed to cue but we never had a verbal conversation on whether he would or I!" (Brain, MusicRadar, 10/22/12)
 

Edited November 29, 2017 by Fashionista