Nu GnR: Doomed to fail

[RONIN]

So much has been written about the Chinese Democracy years. So many questions, so few answers. I had a chance to peruse two fascinating threads from the archive (definitely worth reading if you have time):

http://www.mygnrforum.com/topic/188524-why-did-robin-leave/

http://www.mygnrforum.com/topic/188331-why-did-buckethead-leave/

An overview + thoughts re: those threads -

*The ungodly amount of talent that drained away from this band between 1996-2003. Christ. 

*It seems more and more clear that the delay of the record was not Interscope, Bob Ezrin, Jimmy Iovine, Slash's aura, etc. - it's Axl Rose. They are merely people who I think Axl used as a crutch to second guess himself. I don't think he wanted to release Chinese Democracy, I think he got off on the development process more than actually putting it out there. People like Moby, Freese, Finck, Bucket, etc knew this and bailed. There's a great interview from Josh Freese where he talks about how in his 2nd year with GnR, he was basically just trying to do random stuff to stay busy. There was a lot of "appearing to be busy" recording going on with the nu members of the band during studio sessions. The actual talent like Bucket and Finck weren't into that. It goes back to Slash and Duff's recollection of the 1996 sessions where they talk about simply jamming for hours in a state of the art studio with no direction. Compiling tape after tape of jams that went nowhere.

*Axl and Buckethead could have and should have taken Chinese Democracy to great artistic heights had they been given the chance to properly collaborate without interference. Axl shoulders a massive part of the blame in this situation for putting so many walls of handlers between himself and his band. Instead of leading his band, he opted to be lazy and delegated his duties to others like Del and Tommy Stinson who had a far different agenda in mind. It seems clear that there was a division between the talent (Buckethead, Finck, Freese, Brain) and the paycheck guys. The latter seemed content endlessly recording in the studio while the former wanted to actually move the band forward artistically. Two factions with entirely different motivations.

*Finck should not have been allowed to rejoin the band after the late 90's and even if he was, he should not have been given the chance to share lead guitar duties with Buckethead. Such an incompetent move that only alienated Buckethead more. There is nothing Finck can do that Bucket can't do better.

*Axl's entourage - Beta, Doug Goldstein and Del James - were his downfall. These three vipers encircled him - Axl dug his own professional grave by having these people as his trusted advisers. 

*I think Axl gave up on the Chinese Democracy project after 2006. I think his power/mystique in the industry also took a major blow between 2003-2006. That explains the lack of promotion or interest in that record after release from not only Axl but the industry at large. He may have toured for a few years afterwards but I don't think Axl had any real intention of releasing a follow-up album and I think a large part of that had to do with losing the key members of the original nu guns lineup like Bucket and Finck. I don't believe he had any confidence in DJ Ashba and Bumblefoot to push forward. By the end of nu guns, it appears from Tommy's interviews that the band member closest to Axl was DJ Ashba, not Tommy Stinson which speaks volumes about how screwed up the band dynamics were by that point. 

Edited October 31, 2017 by RONIN

[Sosso]

I think that Finck and Buckethead were a great lead guitar duo with loads of potential. That instrumental they did together at RIR III was something they could've used for a whole song. 

[RONIN]

Quote

Guys came and went (laughs). Originally it was gonna be a two-guitar player group. I split forever so I thought and went back to Nine Inch Nails. In my absence they were looking to replace me and Josh Freese, the drummer at the time, had brought Buckethead in to essentially fill the slot I had left. They really liked him but he's kind of a stunt guitar player. He does a very specific thing and he has a real genius sensibility about him. But he rarely plays the same thing twice ever and when you're trying to cruise through "Nightrain" that just makes it a little (laughs) too different. So they needed someone to anchor the songs. They kept Buckethead to do what Buckethead does and they needed someone else to play alongside.

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/interviews/robin_finck_ive_been_very_blessed_with_the_opportunities_and_ive_enjoyed_saying_yes_to_them.html

(fantastic interview with Robin Finck)

1 hour ago, Sosso said:

I think that Finck and Buckethead were a great lead guitar duo with loads of potential. That instrumental they did together at RIR III was something they could've used for a whole song. 

It appears that neither liked each other very much (allegedly).

Edited October 29, 2017 by RONIN

[Sosso]

It tells a lot about Paul Tobias that they had to hire another guitarist to play alongside Buckethead 

Edited October 29, 2017 by Sosso

[GNR 1991]

9 minutes ago, Sosso said:

I think that Finck and Buckethead were a great lead guitar duo with loads of potential. That instrumental they did together at RIR III was something they could've used for a whole song. 

Yep, it's honestly amazing. 

https://youtu.be/pSIp_zBnI2Q

[IncitingChaos]

Bucket and Robin with Axl could have been incredible in anything that didn't carry the name Guns N Roses. Axl shot himself in the foot or probably the head by maintaining the name. Ultimately the weight of gnr brought this version of the band down, the cast Axl assembled would have done great in any other play. 

[-W.A.R-]

1 hour ago, IncitingChaos said:

Bucket and Robin with Axl could have been incredible in anything that didn't carry the name Guns N Roses. Axl shot himself in the foot or probably the head by maintaining the name. Ultimately the weight of gnr brought this version of the band down, the cast Axl assembled would have done great in any other play. 

Agreed also the fact they never put out any music hurt allot.

Interesting question would be what would be a good name for the band if Axl decided to go with something else?

[ChristmasFnatic]

1 hour ago, IncitingChaos said:

Bucket and Robin with Axl could have been incredible in anything that didn't carry the name Guns N Roses. Axl shot himself in the foot or probably the head by maintaining the name. Ultimately the weight of gnr brought this version of the band down, the cast Axl assembled would have done great in any other play. 

Yeah. The weight and power of GN’R is too much for them. It takes special power and skills and flair to carry the name. True sleazy rockstars, not weirdos.

[IncitingChaos]

39 minutes ago, -W.A.R- said:

Agreed also the fact they never put out any music hurt allot.

Interesting question would be what would be a good name for the band if Axl decided to go with something else?

Hard to put out music when you are still trying to bury AFD. 

Id go with "A Bucket of Shit"...kidding, hopefully something simple but cool

1 minute ago, ChristmasFnatic said:

Yeah. The weight and power of GN’R is too much for them. It takes special power and skills and flair to carry the name. True sleazy rockstars, not weirdos.

It takes the people that created GNR to be GNR. It shouldn't be a hard concept. 

[AxlRoseCDII]

42 minutes ago, -W.A.R- said:

Agreed also the fact they never put out any music hurt allot.

Interesting question would be what would be a good name for the band if Axl decided to go with something else?

Unpopular opinion but I always thought that Chinese Democracy would’ve been a killer band name. I’m dead serious here.

[gnfnrs1972]

In no way am I trying to discredit Buckethead's talent. But somone wearing a mask and a fried chicken container on their head did not, does not, and never will need be onstage as a member of GNR. He and Gothic Finck made Guns a pathetic novelty act.

[RussTCB]

Axl = The Problem with all GNR lineups. 

[IncitingChaos]

19 minutes ago, RussTCB said:

Axl = The Problem with all GNR lineups. 

It's good that you put GNR in there..I think we might find out that Axl and GNR haven't been good for each other for some time now, however Axl and Angus might be something different. Time will tell. 

[shjtjustgotreal]

these people  

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

I agree with all you've said, except I don’t think NuGuns failed; I think they succeeded against the odds.  But hey, that’s where we’re always going to have our difference of opinion. 

Axl himself acknowledges that the new band never really clicked and that 'they didn't know what Guns N' Roses was'.  Astonishingly, Axl admits he didn't know what Guns N' Roses was, only that he was duty bound to keep it going.  Whether you believe him or not, I think these two sentiments are absolutely key to the entire CD mess.

 In fact, of all the quotes and assessments on NuGuns, I find the best one to have been made by Axl when he said 'How do you turn these guys who are something else into something that already was?’  And that was back in…2002 I think?  Just…a face palm moment right there.  

He seemed to have no clue that Guns N' Roses were five guys who made music.  Not five random guys.  Five specific guys who couldn't be replaced.  You replace those guys, you no longer have Guns N' Roses.  He said he left the partnership to 'salvage Guns not steal it', but God knows what Axl thought he was salvaging because it wasn't people. 

I'm guessing Slash tried.

Quote

"'If Axl was to break down and finally realize what the meat and potatoes of Guns N' Roses always has been, I'm only a phone call away,' [Slash] said." (Sonic Net, 02/01/99)

 

That said… I think it’s important to acknowledge that this was a man struggling immensely with ongoing mental health issues, an identity crisis (the origins of which was not his fault), and emotional breakdowns.  Axl’s instability wasn’t helped in any way by the people he surrounded himself with.  Often, these people exacerbated his problems.  

NuGuns, particularly during the Buckethead era, would not have been healthy influences; some were dealing with their own emotional/mental health issues, while others were eccentric to say the least.  Brain was into some sort of karma/good/evil energy thing and he encouraged Axl to see whatshername…Yoda? I can never remember that lady’s name. 

I’m not excusing Axl, or giving him a free pass, or any of those things, but in my opinion, the personal traumas that plagued him for years influenced many of his 'questionable' decisions and behaviours.

Edited October 29, 2017 by MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle

[papashaun]

10 hours ago, IncitingChaos said:

Bucket and Robin with Axl could have been incredible in anything that didn't carry the name Guns N Roses. Axl shot himself in the foot or probably the head by maintaining the name. Ultimately the weight of gnr brought this version of the band down, the cast Axl assembled would have done great in any other play. 

A good name for the trio: "Nine Inch Bucket of Roses"

[The Glow Inc.]

Thing is, nine years after the release of the album, fifteen years after the lineup that wrote it disbanded, and even two years after Slash and Duff returned in GnR, people are still talking about it, about how much it wasn't GnR.

Like it or not, for all the wrong reasons maybe, it seems like it did make an impact, at least within the fanbase. 

[papashaun]

7 hours ago, gnfnrs1972 said:

In no way am I trying to discredit Buckethead's talent. But somone wearing a mask and a fried chicken container on their head did not, does not, and never will need be onstage as a member of GNR. He and Gothic Finck made Guns a pathetic novelty act.

When I was in college, and this "NuGuns" line-up did the VMA's in 2002....I was excited to see to see them, when I realized the "hints" given pointed to GnR performing that night, especially after seeing a report about the Vegas Shows, RIR, etc........and imagine what a let-down I had afterwards.....My roommate watched it with me, and basically stated what I was thinking to myself: First thing out of his mouth was,"What was that??? All those new guys looked ridiculous."

That's what I was thinking to myself, I thought you have one guy dressed in a plaid suit, one wearing a KFC bucket/mask on his head, one with a half-shaved head that looked like he stepped out of a David Lynch movie, and Axl with dreads, wearing a Jerry Rice jersey??? I understand they were trying to have a new look/feel, incorporating with the style/scene at that time...but this in no way was a cohesive unit in any way...just looked like one big jumble attempting to come together....

My second thought at that time was.... "What happened to Axl's voice??? He must be a smoker."  That was the first time I'd heard "Micky" come out, and noticed he was out of breath just trying to sing Welcome to the Jungle, and not the whole song at that.....I kind of thought he must have taken to cigarettes over the years, to explain change of voice/loss of breath. Anyway.....just seemed like that whole unit just did not click together after watching that performance, and time showed, that you just can't replace an original. 

[appetite4illusions]

11 hours ago, RONIN said:

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/interviews/robin_finck_ive_been_very_blessed_with_the_opportunities_and_ive_enjoyed_saying_yes_to_them.html

(fantastic interview with Robin Finck)

It appears that neither liked each other very much (allegedly).

From what I understand, there was little to no interaction between them in Guns N' Roses. They recorded their parts separately. They never had an opportunity to bond and nobody was much concerned with bonding in that band or getting people familar on a social level.

They ended up appreciating each other when they came together to work on the soundtrack to the 2001 film "The Ghosts of Mars."

Can you imagine, out of all the people to forge a bond between them, it was director John Carpenter! 

Carpenter, who we know is a huge music fan, being a world class musician/composer, must have also been a GN'R fan. That in itself is great to me. John Carpenter wanted some rocking industrial music for one of his last films and knew about the sterling reputation of Axl's hired guys. Do you think Carpenter was one of the fans waiting with baited breath for Chinese D? I do, because I doubt he worked with these two guys by accident.

Anyway, I'm struggling to find the editorial piece that broke down the Ghost sessions but it basically explained that it was the first time Bucket and Finck met each other under neutral conditions, which I assume, means non-hostile. It was a fun and healthy place for them to play and they didn't have to wait until 3am for Carpenter to arrive and steer the ship. So, they ended up enjoying their time together.

  

 

[WhazUp]

Man if even half of those little nuggests of inner-drama are true, that whole era of GNR was just a total weird trainwreck, like I always felt like after the reunion, nu-GNR seems like if Marty McFly went back in time and altered 1955 Hill Valley so when he went back to the present everything was weird and not normal

[Tom-Ass]

14 hours ago, gnfnrs1972 said:

In no way am I trying to discredit Buckethead's talent. But somone wearing a mask and a fried chicken container on their head did not, does not, and never will need be onstage as a member of GNR. He and Gothic Finck made Guns a pathetic novelty act.

Seriously.. I went and saw them once and those two are what made the show seem like a complete joke.

[DieselDaisy]

The soap opera of Chinese Democracy was more interesting than the actual album. Chinese Democracy was never better than when it remained unreleased, subject to endless rumour, speculation and controversy. 

[AxlRoseCDII]

The only reason Chinese was doomed to fail was because of the lead singer, Axl Rose. It was an otherwise brilliant team of genius musicians that could’ve made some killer music. 

[h2sublime]

I think one problem with the record is that to a hardcore Guns fan, we all had heard at least half the record for years. Axl really should have released it at least around 2003 at the latest. At that point, the production would have still sounded modern and the songs we already knew would be only a year or two old as far as we knew at that point. I would love for them to take that record, strip it to two guitars and record it the way the current line up performs it. No need to really redo Axl’s vocals which is what would take the most time. Release it as a deluxe version of the record with three discs. Disc 1 would be the redone version with Slash and co, disc 2 would be the original version already released, disc 3 could be demos, remixes, etc. This would require next to zero time for them to get done. Yes I would rather have a totally new record but I will take what I can get. lol

[RONIN]

28 minutes ago, AxlRoseCDII said:

The only reason Chinese was doomed to fail was because of the lead singer, Axl Rose. It was an otherwise brilliant team of genius musicians that could’ve made some killer music. 

I would say even the team was fatally flawed from the outset. You don't mix actual artistic talent (Bucket, Brain, Finck, Freese, Bumble) w/ paycheck warriors (Stinson, Fortus, Tobias, Dizzy) and have a hanger-on like Del oversee things along with Tobias and Stinson. They never had a chance with that type of band dynamic.