Guns N' Roses & related STUDIO SESSIONS - a definitive collection of available info (?)

[rumandraisin]

10 hours ago, Gunner Gilby said:

I guess we can't be sure until we get an album and see the credits. Axl and Chris had a pretty big falling out. He'll get a co songwriting credit for Absurd. I wouldn't imagine that Axl let alone Duff n Slash would want his parts on any new album. Besides it wouldn't be difficult for Dizzy, Melissa or someone to replicate his parts.

I've always thought the tracks had laid finished for years and Axl had them sent to Slash and Duff to add their parts on. I can't see that the others in the band have been in a studio in years in a Gnr capacity. 

[Twinaleblood]

11 hours ago, Gunner Gilby said:

I guess we can't be sure until we get an album and see the credits. 

I'm afraid this might not happen, and I'm not talking about the album release. They kept "hiding" the performance credits on the last couple of things they put out (both SOYL and the HS single). We knew about Brain because he was mentioned on YouTube, but I guess if an album comes out they might use the same "creditless" approach.

[zombux]

Ho, Ho, Ho! 

sheet updated again.

added Mindray11's afterparty recording, updated "best unofficial sources" at AFD/Lies sessions leftovers, plus cosmetic fixes and clearups here and there

[zombux]

alright, I ended up editing the thing even more.

 

the blurry area regarding TSI tracks recorded (but unreleased) with UYI has been sorted out a bit and added Gilby overdubs.

removed duplicates from Rough Mixes 1-4; Razz/darknemus "1999 demos" have been merged into these (at least Razz IRS is identical with RM3, while CITR and TWAT are different but sound very similar or same)

and last but not least, November Rain 2022 also added to the very end of the list, albeit it's already very very far from "GNR studio session".

 

edit: also re-done the color coding of rows to make it more understandable and coherent

Edited December 31, 2022 by zombux

[zombux]

today's update:

KOHD has more explanations added for how it was released (DOT -> UYI2 -> UYI98)

Nobody's Child version of Civil War noted as a separate thing (it's the same track as UYI2 album version, but different mix)

added the unreleased UYI 2022 Steven Wilson Atmos mix

[DTJ80]

2 hours ago, zombux said:

today's update:

KOHD has more explanations added for how it was released (DOT -> UYI2 -> UYI98)

Nobody's Child version of Civil War noted as a separate thing (it's the same track as UYI2 album version, but different mix)

added the unreleased UYI 2022 Steven Wilson Atmos mix

Cheers Zombux. That unreleased Atmos mix is a painful thing to see. 😭

[zombux]

1 hour ago, DTJ80 said:

Cheers Zombux. That unreleased Atmos mix is a painful thing to see. 😭

it is, especially considering Steven Wilson is one of my most favourite artists of all time, if not THE most favourite. oh well. at least his work at November Rain 2022 somehow squeezed into the final boxset.

also, one more update for today. I have extensively updated the early years and added lineups and changes for Lafayette years, Rapidfire and AXL-Rose-Hollywood Rose.

[h2sublime]

So what is the difference in the ‘98 version of KOHD? 

[DTJ80]

3 hours ago, zombux said:

it is, especially considering Steven Wilson is one of my most favourite artists of all time, if not THE most favourite. oh well. at least his work at November Rain 2022 somehow squeezed into the final boxset.

also, one more update for today. I have extensively updated the early years and added lineups and changes for Lafayette years, Rapidfire and AXL-Rose-Hollywood Rose.

Cool stuff re the new updates. I guess we have to hope the Atmos mixes get a standalone release. Or a leak!

[zombux]

17 hours ago, h2sublime said:

So what is the difference in the ‘98 version of KOHD? 

the DoT version of KOHD is the original release (length 5:36)

the UYI2 version has been slightly modified - "responses" have been removed (length 5:36)

the UYI98 version is shortened by removing Josh Richman's speech (length 5:20)

for a completenesss sake, there also exists a remix of the DoT version (by Steve Thompson & Michael Barbiero), length 5:30

[zombux]

today's update: some more info added regarding Rapidfire and especially Hollywood Rose timeline.

sadly, even despite huge efforts by @Shackler's and @Blackstar and using as many sources as we could, it wasn't really possible to determine all the details regarding HR history and lineups, as existing information is often contradictory and confusing - so take it as it is.

at least it doesn't mean anything changing to the actual studio recordings timeline.

Edited January 2, 2023 by zombux

[Sweersa]

On 12/12/2022 at 4:25 AM, Twinaleblood said:

I'm afraid this might not happen, and I'm not talking about the album release. They kept "hiding" the performance credits on the last couple of things they put out (both SOYL and the HS single). We knew about Brain because he was mentioned on YouTube, but I guess if an album comes out they might use the same "creditless" approach.

If the booklet on an eventual album is anything like the one for the 2008 album, each song should have fairly detailed writing and studio performance credits. 

[zombux]

"I have traversed a treacherous sea of horrors to update the sheet for you tonight."

meaning, I have re-read another bunch of sources (thanks to Chinese Whispers and A4D!) and added numerous notes to old Hollywood Rose era, and also added a lot of info to 94-99 era.

[Blackstar]

10 minutes ago, zombux said:

"I have traversed a treacherous sea of horrors to update the sheet for you tonight."

meaning, I have re-read another bunch of sources (thanks to Chinese Whispers and A4D!) and added numerous notes to old Hollywood Rose era, and also added a lot of info to 94-99 era.

Regarding the first AXL/Rose/Hollywood Rose show:

According to Chris Weber, their first ever show as a band was at the Orphanage under the "AXL" moniker. Gnrontour lists a January 3, 1984 show at the Orphanage as the first "Rose" show.

I had a further look in the newspaper listings, and I found out that the Orphanage, which was previously called "HJ's", closed in late October 1983 due to constant harassment from the LAPD (it hosted mostly punk gigs) and reopened as HJ's again in Dec. 1983 but seemingly without hosting live gigs at least for the entirety of 1984. So it doesn't seem that there could have been a show there after November 1983.

 

[zombux]

3 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Regarding the first AXL/Rose/Hollywood Rose show:

According to Chris Weber, their first ever show as a band was at the Orphanage under the "AXL" moniker. Gnrontour lists a January 3, 1984 show at the Orphanage as the first "Rose" show.

I had a further look in the newspaper listings, and I found out that the Orphanage, which was previously called "HJ's", closed in late October 1983 due to constant harassment from the LAPD (it hosted mostly punk gigs) and reopened as HJ's again in Dec. 1983 but seemingly without hosting live gigs at least for the entirety of 1984. So it doesn't seem that there could have been a show there after November 1983.

 

nice find. I'm very confused about this whole thing.

in the Roots booklet, Vicky says that the newformed 3-piece band (Axl, Izzy, Chris) went to record the demo together with Johnny Kreis. they had no bass guitarist, as Izzy and Chris split the bass duties on that demo. until then, it's nice and understandable.

but then she says "with that demo completed, they went on to play under AXL name", their first gig was at The Orphanage, played "a few gigs", and then, "sometime after 1983 Christmas holiday", reconvened as Rose "with a new bass player" (and also a drummer, but that makes even less sense as Johnny was there probably from start until HR folded in spring).

BUT the booklet also says "recorded in January 84".

so either the booklet is wrong and the demo was recorded sometime in (say) December 83 before xmas, OR Vicky is wrong and the demo indeed comes from very early January 84 and that Jan 84 Orphanage show was still played under AXL name and they only renamed a bit later after that.

[Blackstar]

38 minutes ago, zombux said:

nice find. I'm very confused about this whole thing.

in the Roots booklet, Vicky says that the newformed 3-piece band (Axl, Izzy, Chris) went to record the demo together with Johnny Kreis. they had no bass guitarist, as Izzy and Chris split the bass duties on that demo. until then, it's nice and understandable.

but then she says "with that demo completed, they went on to play under AXL name", their first gig was at The Orphanage, played "a few gigs", and then, "sometime after 1983 Christmas holiday", reconvened as Rose "with a new bass player" (and also a drummer, but that makes even less sense as Johnny was there probably from start until HR folded in spring).

BUT the booklet also says "recorded in January 84".

so either the booklet is wrong and the demo was recorded sometime in (say) December 83 before xmas, OR Vicky is wrong and the demo indeed comes from very early January 84 and that Jan 84 Orphanage show was still played under AXL name and they only renamed a bit later after that.

The problem is that Vicky Hamilton and Marc Canter don'tt have firsthand knowledge about the beginnings of Hollywood Rose, and of the timings of the first shows and the demo recording. Vicky's information about Izzy and Weber playing bass on the first recording comes from Weber (because he has said that himself):

Weber: ... we found Johnny Kries. Just a drummer and I don't think he even rehearsed. He basically came in and we told him where the studio was and he showed up that day. We played for twenty minutes and showed him the songs and he put down the tracks. And then me and Izzy just traded off playing bass.

Taking into account the information about the Orphanage, I think that she may be correct regarding the timing of the first shows (late 1983) but wrong about the timing of the demo recording. They could have played the shows as AXL with a random drummer and bass player, and then brought in Johnny Kreis (who ended up becoming the regular drummer) for the recording of the demo in January.

That would also mean that Marc Canter's (and gnrontour's) Jan. 3 date for the Orphanage show is wrong.

Btw, a transcript of Vicky's text from the Roots of GN'R booklet can be found here:

https://www.a-4-d.com/t5185-2004-06-22-hollywood-rose-cd-booklet-the-hollywood-rose-story-vicky-hamilton

Edited January 3, 2023 by Blackstar

[zombux]

1 minute ago, Blackstar said:

They could have played the shows as AXL with a random drummer and bass player, and then brought in Johnny Kreis (who ended up become the regular drummer) for the demo.

yep, very well possible. also the general info for decades is that the order of bass players for the early/original lineup (until spring 84) was Rick Mars (or Marrs), Andre Toxx and later (when HR reformed) Steve Darrow, while DJ (Daniel Nicolson) was also playing at some point

but I'm not so convinced about the beginnings, either the bassist was there only as a live member, or he joined later, and I even couldn't verify if Rick was the first and Andre the second or the other way around and when DJ was in the band (if a live member can even be considered a band member) etc.

we know that Rick had the tape, on which he didn't play, so probably he got it to learn the tracks - again I just guess lol

[Blackstar]

4 minutes ago, zombux said:

yep, very well possible. also the general info for decades is that the order of bass players for the early/original lineup (until spring 84) was Rick Mars (or Marrs), Andre Toxx and later (when HR reformed) Steve Darrow, while DJ (Daniel Nicolson) was also playing at some point

but I'm not so convinced about the beginnings, either the bassist was there only as a live member, or he joined later, and I even couldn't verify if Rick was the first and Andre the second or the other way around and when DJ was in the band (if a live member can even be considered a band member) etc.

we know that Rick had the tape, on which he didn't play, so probably he got it to learn the tracks - again I just guess lol

According to Adler, DJ was the HR bass player when he and Slash went to see HR for the first time at the Gazzarri's, which most likely was in February 1984. So DJ was probably somewhere between Rick Marrs and Andre Toxx.

[zombux]

1 minute ago, Blackstar said:

According to Adler, DJ was the HR bass player when he and Slash went to see HR for the first time at the Gazzarri's, which most likely was in February 1984. So DJ was probably somewhere between Rick Marrs and Andre Toxx.

yup that matches my findings too.

now - which of those two was there first? 

and... was it even like that? wasn't there like a pool of a few bass players who were all considered live players and just attended rehearsals and gigs as they could (because, maybe, they had other commitments too)? I mean, it's possible...

Rick Mars was playing with Pyrrhus, also for New Years Eve 83

so Andre Toxx might have been the first one, especially considering he was a friend of Johnny - see this: https://web.archive.org/web/20090510082630/http://www.laserfire.com:80/hollywoodrose/threeroses.htm

also some more info here https://web.archive.org/web/20090110163855/http://www.myspace.com/johnnykreisrocks (MUD did a good job sniffing around Wayback Machine! )

[Blackstar]

4 minutes ago, zombux said:

yup that matches my findings too.

now - which of those two was there first? 

and... was it even like that? wasn't there like a pool of a few bass players who were all considered live players and just attended rehearsals and gigs as they could (because, maybe, they had other commitments too)? I mean, it's possible...

Rick Mars was playing with Pyrrhus, also for New Years Eve 83

so Andre Toxx might have been the first one, especially considering he was a friend of Johnny - see this: https://web.archive.org/web/20090510082630/http://www.laserfire.com:80/hollywoodrose/threeroses.htm

also some more info here https://web.archive.org/web/20090110163855/http://www.myspace.com/johnnykreisrocks (MUD did a good job sniffing around Wayback Machine! )

Yeah, we have the content of the first link at a-4-d, too:

https://www.a-4-d.com/t5026-2002-mm-dd-johnny-kreis-website-hollywood-rose-the-very-beginning

As evident from the updates, Kreis originally remembered only Andre Toxx and totally forgot about Rick Marrs until he got an email from him - which means that Andre was the bass player for a longer time than others (before Darrow) and also that he came after Rick.

Also the Kreis interviews linked in the myspace page:

https://www.a-4-d.com/t5633-2005-01-dd-slam-interview-with-johnny-kreis-hollywood-rose

https://www.a-4-d.com/t5586-2007-02-dd-chopaway-com-interview-with-johnny-kreis-hollywood-rose

And this one:

https://www.a-4-d.com/t5849-2008-12-02-la-s-burning-blog-interview-with-johnny-kreis-hollywood-rose

 

 

[jimisbatman]

@zombux this resource is invaluable, truly a work of art.

Quick question regarding Village Leaks and Beavan mixes. APART from Josh versions (I assume they are Beaven mixes), and the songs marked as Beaven mix, are there anymore untitled Beaven mixed songs either in the Village Leaks or otherwise early leaks? 

[zombux]

On 7/5/2023 at 2:06 PM, jimisbatman said:

@zombux this resource is invaluable, truly a work of art.

Quick question regarding Village Leaks and Beavan mixes. APART from Josh versions (I assume they are Beaven mixes), and the songs marked as Beaven mix, are there anymore untitled Beaven mixed songs either in the Village Leaks or otherwise early leaks? 

good question but hard to answer.

I guess that the 4 Village Rough Mixes discs are mostly re-mixed Beavan tracks, basically Disc 1 is unmixed Beavan album and other discs are remaining tracks, but of course nobody knows the intended final tracklist back then.
but because these tracks have already been co-worked at by Beavan and RTB, it might be some kind of transition phase or whatever else combination.

the newer tracks are less likely to be Beavan.

on the other hand, the 3 tracks that leaked as "1999 demos" are almost certainly just another alternations of the Rough Mixes versions, just with slight differences or identical ones, so that maybe has Beavan touches on that too.

[rumandraisin]

13 hours ago, zombux said:

good question but hard to answer.

I guess that the 4 Village Rough Mixes discs are mostly re-mixed Beavan tracks, basically Disc 1 is unmixed Beavan album and other discs are remaining tracks, but of course nobody knows the intended final tracklist back then.
but because these tracks have already been co-worked at by Beavan and RTB, it might be some kind of transition phase or whatever else combination.

the newer tracks are less likely to be Beavan.

on the other hand, the 3 tracks that leaked as "1999 demos" are almost certainly just another alternations of the Rough Mixes versions, just with slight differences or identical ones, so that maybe has Beavan touches on that too.

I can't remember where I read it, most likely the superb a-4-d timeline, Sean stayed on longer than we thought until about March 2000 for a period where RTB and Sean were working together. 

[zombux]

13 hours ago, rumandraisin said:

I can't remember where I read it, most likely the superb a-4-d timeline, Sean stayed on longer than we thought until about March 2000 for a period where RTB and Sean were working together. 

well, my sheet says so too. there was some short period when those two worked together.

but that doesn't really mean that the leaks we got have been worked at by him.

it's somewhat likely, but no guarrantee.

[jimisbatman]

On 7/10/2023 at 4:19 AM, zombux said:

good question but hard to answer.

I guess that the 4 Village Rough Mixes discs are mostly re-mixed Beavan tracks, basically Disc 1 is unmixed Beavan album and other discs are remaining tracks, but of course nobody knows the intended final tracklist back then.
but because these tracks have already been co-worked at by Beavan and RTB, it might be some kind of transition phase or whatever else combination.

the newer tracks are less likely to be Beavan.

on the other hand, the 3 tracks that leaked as "1999 demos" are almost certainly just another alternations of the Rough Mixes versions, just with slight differences or identical ones, so that maybe has Beavan touches on that too.

Thanks for that. And yes it is hard to say for certain and always wonder about the Beaven version of the album. I have listened to the later versions/official release of CD songs over the last few years as they are cleaner and you can hear more specific instruments..... But lately, I have complied the earliest sounding version of CD and have swapped out RM#1 versions for Josh versions and the Beaven TWAT which specifically has his name on, so definitely have 5 out of 10 songs. I kept the play list same as RM1 as it works, and runs better than the released version imo. 

What's interesting is they sound better imo, dirtier/lowfi (I know it's unmixed) and has that minor industrial feeling. The mid 2000s Better/twat demo's are not supposed to be so clean as the official versions (although still enjoy official twat too) and sound better in demo form. I know this is going off topic, but wished Axl just released rest of CD versions, as is, as originally recorded and toured as solo artist with CD line up:bucket, finch, josh, Tommy. That Axl Rose circus would have definitely been a draw card for sure. 

Anyway, thanks again for your info, I constantly refer to it.