DUFF MCKAGAN Says AXL ROSE Has Come Up With 'Some Magnificent Stuff' For New GUNS N' ROSES Album

[Draguns]

55 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I think that the Izzy situation, although it stemmed from disagreements about the band (creative and business differences - the way the band operated in general), was also - and probably still is - deeply personal and emotional. Many times we tend to overlook this aspect, but there were relationships, friendships, hurt feelings... Things got emotional and even childish sometimes.

Izzy was seemingly concerned about the money the band was loosing because of Axl. Plus, being sober made him much less tolerant to Axl's and the band's volatility. So, as he said, he called a band meeting and tried to set terms in regards to Axl's liability (and, according to Slash, he was asking the accountants for reports on the money spent). Axl somehow thought that the band - and I guess more so Izzy, because he was a longtime friend - should stick up to him for all that because he was doing therapy etc. So Axl was hurt.

Then Axl and Slash threatened Izzy to demote him. And I guess Izzy was hurt mostly by Axl, because they'd known each other for so long, since Axl was a kid with a bowl haircut in Lafayette who "couldn't get pussy in high school", so how could he do that to him? So Izzy resigned with a letter. Right after that he and Axl talked on the phone, Axl told him that they could get together again to write for the next record, and they agreed to meet in person and talk. And then there was a ridiculous misunderstanding: Izzy talked to Duff and bitched about Axl apparently; Axl heard about that and was angry, because he thought things were cool between them after the phone call, and when Izzy went to his house, he just kicked him out, and Izzy was in turn angry and hurt because Axl treated him like that there. 

You know I was thinking about this on my way to work. It's interesting to see from the outside as to how complicated the relationships were for the AFD5.  It seems like the only friendship that was started and maintained was between Slash and Duff.   

[DieselDaisy]

And even with Duff and Slash, Duff slagged-off Slash's snakepit stuff, describing it as southern rock. 

[soon]

Slash and Axl have spoken about how business people and entities put a wedge between them back in the day. Suggesting that their reconciliation included really coming to terms with how much outside forces contributed to the deterioration of their relationship. Slash has acknowledged that coke is at the heart of a great many rock and roll conflicts and he was also drunk and everything else too. And Axl was out of his mind, something he nods to when he points out how much therapy he was doing and being unprepared to tour given his mental/emotional state.

So somewhere in that storm the attention of this great beast that was GNR 1991 turns its attention to Izzy. Shady business people who place wedges, insanity, drug abuse, ego. And its not long after that he's out. Sure he had his money and sobriety issues - the only sane and reasonable things in the entire story imo.

So, if I were Izzy and Axl comes to me in 2016 and say "sorry how business people, my ego, my insanity, Slashs addiction and our reckless spending forced you out of the band. Please come back?" But you werent going to take actions to actually act on that apology, then what does the acknowledgement and apology mean? It means nothing. It means, in fact, that its a direct continuation of 1991 with an offer to Izzy for a lesser pay and a lesser standing. The same thing he walked from! 

People can demonstrate their business acumen all day about 'he left the partnership.' But that doesn't speak to the larger picture imho. It can highlight the poor business acumen of whatever business people floated Izzy the same type of contract that he walked from to begin with. Not sure he ever asked to be reinstated in the partnership, thats just a theory that stems from his demand for equal pay so far as I can tell.

From the info we have, Axl did not make an equal effort to heal the past with Izzy as he did with Slash. Seems to fit into the notion that Axl, Slash and Duff figured theyd be just fine on their own and made no efforts to restore trust and make amends with Izzy. If they wanted him they knew better then to just pick up where they left off in 1991 with his demotion and pay cut.

Edited February 26, 2019 by soon

[ludurigan]

16 minutes ago, Draguns said:

The point being that it was still a business decision that was made. I'm taking the emotion of this one. I'm also comparing this to a similar situation that Mike Bloomberg wrote in his book.

you wrote this:

Mike Bloomberg wrote in his biography that a partner in the early days sold his share of the partnership.  The guy wanted back in after seeing how successful the company would become. He was denied since the other partners all took the risk.

 

- 1991 was not "early days". it was five years after "early days". In 1985-86 GN'R was in the gutter. A couple of years later they were at the top of the world. Even more so in 1991 when Izzy left.

- Izzy didn't want back in "after seeing how successful the company would become". He left after GNR became successful. Way after. Maybe you were not there and maybe you think GN'R became the biggest band in the world in 1992 thanks to the November Rain video. No. It happened three years earlier with Sweet Child o' Mine. And Jungle. And Paradise City. And Patience. And Knocking on Heaven's Door. And You Could Be Mine.

- Izzy took the risk like all the other four guys. He gave four to five years of his life to take GNR from the gutter to the very top -- just like the four other guys. Everyone that joined after Izzy left didn't take any risk. The game was won. And it still is, to this day. Thanks to the music that GNR wrote 1985-1990, which is what people pay to listen to -- to this day.

 

[ludurigan]

14 minutes ago, soon said:

Slash and Axl have spoken about how business people and entities put a wedge between them back in the day. Suggesting that their reconciliation included really coming to terms with how much outside forces contributed to the deterioration of their relationship. Slash has acknowledged that coke is at the heart of a great many rock and roll conflicts and he was also drunk and everything else too. And Axl was out of his mind, something he nods to when he points out how much therapy he was doing and being unprepared to tour given his mental/emotional state.

So somewhere in that storm the attention of this great beast that was GNR 1991 turns its attention to Izzy. Shady business people who place wedges, insanity, drug abuse, ego. And its not long after that he's out. Sure he had his money and sobriety issues - the only sane and reasonable things in the entire story imo.

So, if I were Izzy and Axl comes to me in 2016 and say "sorry how business people, my ego, my insanity, Slashs addiction and our reckless spending forced you out of the band. Please come back?" But you werent going to take actions to actually act on that apology, then what does the acknowledgement and apology mean? It means nothing. It means, in fact, that its a direct continuation of 1991 with an offer to Izzy for a lesser pay and a lesser standing. The same thing he walked from! 

People can demonstrate their business acumen all day about 'he left the partnership.' But that doesn't speak to the larger picture imho. It can highlight the poor business acumen of whatever business people floated Izzy the same type of contract that he walked from to begin with. Not sure he ever asked to be reinstated in the partnership, thats just a theory that stems from his demand for equal pay so far as I can tell.

From the info we have, Axl did not make an equal effort to heal the past with Izzy as he did with Slash. Seems to fit into the notion that Axl, Slash and Duff figured theyd be just fine on their own and made no efforts to restore trust and make amends with Izzy. If they wanted him they knew better then to just pick up where they left off in 1991 with his demotion and pay cut.

e-fucking-xactly!

 

[Gnrcane]

37 minutes ago, ludurigan said:

you wrote this:

Mike Bloomberg wrote in his biography that a partner in the early days sold his share of the partnership.  The guy wanted back in after seeing how successful the company would become. He was denied since the other partners all took the risk.

 

- 1991 was not "early days". it was five years after "early days". In 1985-86 GN'R was in the gutter. A couple of years later they were at the top of the world. Even more so in 1991 when Izzy left.

- Izzy didn't want back in "after seeing how successful the company would become". He left after GNR became successful. Way after. Maybe you were not there and maybe you think GN'R became the biggest band in the world in 1992 thanks to the November Rain video. No. It happened three years earlier with Sweet Child o' Mine. And Jungle. And Paradise City. And Patience. And Knocking on Heaven's Door. And You Could Be Mine.

- Izzy took the risk like all the other four guys. He gave four to five years of his life to take GNR from the gutter to the very top -- just like the four other guys. Everyone that joined after Izzy left didn't take any risk. The game was won. And it still is, to this day. Thanks to the music that GNR wrote 1985-1990, which is what people pay to listen to -- to this day.

 

Let me start saying I agree with what you are saying.  However, GNR is worth a lot more now than it was when Izzy left in 1991.  These numbers are made up but let's say the Band/Brand was worth $20 million when he left.  His 25% share was worth $5 million.  In the ensuing crazy history, demand built up for the Axl/Slash reunion.  Let's say now the Band/Brand is worth $400 million.  That means that had Izzy not left, his share would have grown from $20 million to $100 million.  I don't think it is fair to ask for the same percentage (IF that is what he did) because he wasn't a partner during that valuation increase.  Some of the increase is due to his contributions.

Also, when he left, he received compensation for his share.  His current share to be back must be reduced to account for that as well.  Either that or he would actually need to buy the shares back.

It would be similar to buying Facebook stock at the IPO, selling it for a modest increase and then wanting your shares back when it is worth 4x your sale price.

[SoulMonster]

Of course it doesn't make sense to invite Izzy back into the band as an equal partner with equal compensation. He quit the band and they had to shoulder it without him. The work the rest of the guys did after Izzy departure (and before, really) should amount to something, more specifically it should amount to them getting a larger share of the proceeds. And the fact that the tour was an immense success even without Izzy really implies this is correct.

From a more personal perspective, though, as an original member of the band who were important in the early song-writing, I really would have liked to see Izzy part of it, and I hope the rest of the guys were willing to go far in the negotiations to satisfy him beyond what is fair...and I do expect they were. But if Izzy took the stance of "either I get the same as Slash or I am out!" then I have no problems accepting the outcome.

[SoulMonster]

2 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Not just "early songwriting", Appetite For Destruction, GNR Lies, Use Your Illusion 1 & 2

Hopefully he and Steven can return and bridges are mended.

You are right. But he started to fade out after Appetite., although they managed to get some of his songs onto UYI (fortunately).

Would be nice to see Izzy back in the band, yes.

[Draguns]

54 minutes ago, ludurigan said:

you wrote this:

Mike Bloomberg wrote in his biography that a partner in the early days sold his share of the partnership.  The guy wanted back in after seeing how successful the company would become. He was denied since the other partners all took the risk.

 

- 1991 was not "early days". it was five years after "early days". In 1985-86 GN'R was in the gutter. A couple of years later they were at the top of the world. Even more so in 1991 when Izzy left.

- Izzy didn't want back in "after seeing how successful the company would become". He left after GNR became successful. Way after. Maybe you were not there and maybe you think GN'R became the biggest band in the world in 1992 thanks to the November Rain video. No. It happened three years earlier with Sweet Child o' Mine. And Jungle. And Paradise City. And Patience. And Knocking on Heaven's Door. And You Could Be Mine.

- Izzy took the risk like all the other four guys. He gave four to five years of his life to take GNR from the gutter to the very top -- just like the four other guys. Everyone that joined after Izzy left didn't take any risk. The game was won. And it still is, to this day. Thanks to the music that GNR wrote 1985-1990, which is what people pay to listen to -- to this day.

 

Nice to see that you cherry picked my post to fit your narrative. Here is what I wrote:

 

As much as I like and want Izzy back, he did sell his share of the partnership. You can't fault the rest of the guys for Izzy selling his part. It's unfortunate that he felt he had to as a result of stress, drugs, etc. However, you can't sell your part of the partnership and then want back in. This is similar to what happened at my employer, Bloomberg. Mike Bloomberg wrote in his biography that a partner in the early days sold his share of the partnership.  The guy wanted back in after seeing how successful the company would become. He was denied since the other partners all took the risk. The guy would have been a billionaire if he had not sold his share. Similar situation. 

You left out the part where I said similar situation. I didn't say the same nor did I leave it without saying similar situation. . 

•  

[Edward Nygma]

Doubt Izzy's broke but I guess it would be nice to have him back involved somehow on the flipside I kinda don't mind Fortus in this band. 

[Modano09]

3 hours ago, ludurigan said:

if izzy had "sold his share" after, let's say, the gig at music machine in 1986, or even the marquee in 1987, then maybe you would have a point

izzy left in 1991 when GNR was at the top of the world, and after years of hard work with the four other guys that resulted in taking GNR from the gutter to the very top of rock n roll.

his last gig was at wembley fucking stadium

 

Yeah, he thought 1991 was a good time to cash out. And it probably was. But then he found out how much he could make in 2016 if he were still and equal partner and expected the others to pretend that he still was.

 

[GNRfan2008]

2 hours ago, ludurigan said:

 

- Izzy took the risk like all the other four guys. He gave four to five years of his life to take GNR from the gutter to the very top -- just like the four other guys. Everyone that joined after Izzy left didn't take any risk. The game was won. And it still is, to this day. Thanks to the music that GNR wrote 1985-1990, which is what people pay to listen to -- to this day.

 

 

4-5 years? I would say he gave more like a decade of his life to help push GN'R to the top. All of those guys were scratching and clawing in the early 80's, trying to figure out a band that had the right chemistry and talent to be successful. 

[Sisyphus]

I don't know if this was mentioned already but I remember reading that Izzy had sold his share but still received a cut of everything the band earned until 1997. Since then he's only been entitled to royalties. That was my impression.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Sisyphus

[Tom-Ass]

7 hours ago, CAFC Nick said:

OK fair but maybe I should clarify. More to a live setting in terms of versatility - i.e. can play all of the GN'R catalogue. As great as Izzy is, can you imagine him playing Buckethead's Chinese Democracy solo?

Probably not but to be fair, I don't give a rats ass about the Chinese Democracy solo or anything else from that album   Plus they already have one of the best lead guitarists of all time in the band! Slash might not play it like Buckethead but he could do good do a good enough to get them onto the next song which is what the vast majority only care about anyway.. Just how I see it.

[Tom-Ass]

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Of course it doesn't make sense to invite Izzy back into the band as an equal partner with equal compensation. He quit the band and they had to shoulder it without him.

Didn't Slash and Duff quit the band to? They may have hung around for another couple years but they were all out of GnR for over 20 years...

1 hour ago, Modano09 said:

 But then he found out how much he could make in 2016

 

umm isn't that exactly what Slash did?

[Modano09]

2 minutes ago, Tom-Ass said:

Didn't Slash and Duff quit the band to? They may have hung around for another couple years but they were all out of GnR for over 20 years...

umm isn't that exactly what Slash did?

No.

Izzy wanted out, he was paid in exchange for his share and left Axl/Slash/Duff as the partners of GNR. When Slash and Duff left the band, they maintained their share of the partnership. I'm not sure about the specifics but they didn't just sell their stake in the band back to Axl. That's why Axl couldn't use certain GNR logos, or release certain things with Slash/Duff's approval, or why they all had to agree to a GNR song being used on a soundtrack, or why they were suing each other or representing GNR when GNR was sued. 

Slash maintained an ownership stake and took part in managing aspects of the brand and decided to cash in on that. Izzy sold his ownership 25 years earlier and had nothing to do with anything since and wanted to also cash in. 

[Tom-Ass]

BTW.. With all this Izzy talk I want to state that I understand it didn't work out with Izzy.. It sucks but it is what it is.  I just not a fan of Fortus and it would be easier to accept Izzy's absence if there was someone that fit the band better. 

[Modano09]

2 minutes ago, Tom-Ass said:

BTW.. With all this Izzy talk I want to state that I understand it didn't work out with Izzy.. It sucks but it is what it is.  I just not a fan of Fortus and it would be easier to accept Izzy's absence if there was someone that fit the band better. 

But everyone in the band thinks he fits the band well enough.

[Tom-Ass]

25 minutes ago, Modano09 said:

But everyone in the band thinks he fits the band well enough.

$$$$ buys happiness.. Franks presence proves that the quality of the music isn't their top priority. 

[Modano09]

3 minutes ago, Tom-Ass said:

$$$$ buys happiness.. Franks presence proves that the quality of the music isn't their top priority. 

I don't think it's fair to say people don't feel how they say they feel because you'd prefer they didn't. 

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, Tom-Ass said:

Didn't Slash and Duff quit the band to? They may have hung around for another couple years but they were all out of GnR for over 20 years...

Yes, they did. Are you arguing that they don't deserve the same return from the touring as Axl? First off, do we know they do get the same as Axl? Secondly, even if they quit after the release of TSI?! they were still part of the band longer than Izzy and would likely argue they did more for the band's branding and the popularity it enjoys today, and hence deserve more than they were willing to give to Izzy.

[GNRfan2008]

5 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

First off, do we know Slash/Duff get the same as Axl? 

 

I would bet Duff & Slash do not get the same amount as Axl. But the offer to Izzy was a complete joke. He asked for an equal share, but I'm guessing he would have settled for something smaller if it was still a really good number. 

[SoulMonster]

Just now, GNRfan2008 said:

 

I would bet Duff & Slash do not get the same amount as Axl. But the offer to Izzy was a complete joke. 

Oh? I haven't heard what they offered him. What was it?

[GNRfan2008]

3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Oh? I haven't heard what they offered him. What was it?

 

Rumor was around $40,000 per show. 

[SoulMonster]

Just now, GNRfan2008 said:

Rumor was around $40,000 per show. 

Not that I care much about GN'R rumors but they did also say how much Slash and Duff got, for comparison?