Leaving Neverland, Michael Jackson Documentary, HBO

[Lio]

1 minute ago, Len Cnut said:

Its all about the tone though innit, I mean its clearly a joke, why would you take that seriously?   its literally like a passing jokey comment, its not like I stand there and drill them on that shit

My daughter was bugging me once at an eating place to get 2 EUR to put in one of them machines where a stupid trinket comes out. Like, the machine where sth will come out that she doesn't want, because she wanted another colour or whatever. Anyway, so I said no. There was this guy sitting a few meters away and he called out to her and gave her the 2 EUR. So annoying. Frankly, I didn't know what to do. I'm such a wuss. Trouble was we still had to eat there and I felt awkward all the way through lunch.

Anyway, this doesn't really have anything to do with Michael Jackson, but just thought about it because you guys were talking about strangers interfering with other people's kids.

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

As a father, I find that absolutely ludicrous 

I tend to be around kids a lot, our house seems to be perpetually full of them. And occasionally I do develop a great connection with some of them, where it is obvious they like me (for cryptic reasons). Like there was this girl who would also come running and give me a hug when she saw me, and wanted to sit on my lap all he time. Just craving intimacy. But if any of these kids actually expressed any desire to sleep in my bed next to me, then I would be completely flabbergasted and quite frankly worried. That is something else entirely, to the kid.

I do get that Michael Jackson was not like me, sure. He was probably child-like and the kids might have been mesmerized by the environment of Neverland, but I would still find it VERY weird if any kids visiting Jackson would ask if they could share his bed. My kids at 9 and 6 know this is not natural, that this is not something they should do, that adults are not kids and that sleeping next to adults (unless it is the parents) is not okay or natural. They seem to know this instinctively. Regardless of how much they enjoyed the company of him, and how cool it was to be with him, they wouldn't ask to sleep with him. 

Maybe my kids are just more sensible? Maybe there is a huge variation here from kid to kid? Maybe American kids are more blue-eyed or don't see the difference between other kids and grownups? Maybe the kids Jackson had were younger than 6?

To me it just sounds completely implausible.

I'm sure you do a sterling moonwalk Soul but there is really no comparison here.

No one - and I'm including nonces here - has quite fashioned what can only be described as a ''children cult'' quite like Michael Jackson. Nobody has had the financial resources and will power to create an environment for the aforementioned cult like Michael did with Neverland. Nobody, outside Presley and The Beatles, has even been as famous as Jackson in the 20th century and therefore managed to reflect a persona back onto the general population. 

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

I'm sure you do a sterling moonwalk Soul but there is really no comparison here.

No one - and I'm including nonces here - has quite fashioned what can only be described as a ''children cult'' quite like Michael Jackson. Nobody has had the financial resources and will power to create an environment for the aforementioned cult like Michael did with Neverland. Nobody, outside Presley and The Beatles, has even been as famous as Jackson in the 20th century and therefore managed to reflect a persona back onto the general population. 

Sure, but still doesn't make sense to me that kids would want to sleep in his bed. It simply doesn't follow natural from when a kid likes someone. There is no logic that no matter of how entranced they might be with a person and the environs, they would then think, "and now I want to sleep in his bed". Just doesn't follow. 

[action]

Just now, Len Cnut said:

Its all about the tone though innit, I mean its clearly a joke, why would you take that seriously?

if I want to hear your jokes while I'm keeping my kid relatively "in check", I'll let you know

[Len Cnut]

15 minutes ago, Lio said:

My daughter was bugging me once at an eating place to get 2 EUR to put in one of them machines where a stupid trinket comes out. Like, the machine where sth will come out that she doesn't want, because she wanted another colour or whatever. Anyway, so I said no. There was this guy sitting a few meters away and he called out to her and gave her the 2 EUR. So annoying. Frankly, I didn't know what to do. I'm such a wuss. Trouble was we still had to eat there and I felt awkward all the way through lunch.

See I'd never actually give the kid the money, thats crossing the line, mines just like...a jokey little quip, in passing, without looking like I want to stop and debate the shit out with the person in question, quite frankly that would annoy me if I was a parent.  Or I'd find it a little forward at any rate. 

9 minutes ago, action said:

if I want to hear your jokes while I'm keeping my kid relatively "in check", I'll let you know

I don't blame ya mate, as I was saying, I need to learn to keep my big mouth shut.

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, SoulMonster said:

Sure, but still doesn't make sense to me that kids would want to sleep in his bed. It simply doesn't follow natural from when a kid likes someone. There is no logic that no matter of how entranced they might be with a person and the environs, they would then think, "and now I want to sleep in his bed". Just doesn't follow. 

Kids have sleepovers, don't they? There is your explanation.

That is how these things are depicted in the Bashir thing and elsewhere - minus the paedophilia: one big sleepover involving popcorn, Spielberg films and so forth. Watch the clip I posted above. 

[SoulMonster]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

Kids have sleepovers, don't they? There is your explanation.

Eh, yes, with other kids. And under the auspices of that kid's parents.  

Regardless of how child-like Jackson appeared, a normal kid age 6 or more would not mistake him for another kid. They would know the difference.

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

Eh, yes, with other kids. And under the auspices of that kid's parents.  

Regardless of how child-like Jackson appeared, a normal kid age 6 or more would not mistake him for another kid. They would know the difference.

I don't agree. I think you are underestimating Jackson's cult like appeal, fame and fortune. 

Also, you are removing a vital stage from the ''sleeping over stage'', i.e., the removal of the parents. Often the parents were not even present - not even on the ranch. Jackson sent Wade Robson's family on a USA jaunt whilst Wade was left with Michael at Neverland. Before you ask the question, ''would my child sleep in Michael's bed'', you might want to first ask the question: ''would I leave my child in Michael's care and bugger off to Disneyland?''.

And again, believing the documentary. the sexual acts occurred all over Neverland. The sleeping in his bedroom was not a prerequisite for their molestation.

[MillionsOfSpiders]

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

Absolutely. I would find it utterly absurd if any of my daughters (9 and 6) ever asked me if they could do it, and then I would have a very serious discussion with the man in question.

The whole idea that a seven year old boy would think to ask to sleep over in the same bed as a grown man is ridiculous to me. They just don’t think like that at that age - unless someone suggests it to them. 

I have an 8 year old daughter and a 5 year old son and if either of them came to me and said they wanted to stay over in the same room as a 30 year old man (or woman) I’d wonder what the hell had been said to them. 

My son is a huge fan of Lionel Messi, he idolises him. I think he’d love to meet him but I wouldn’t expect to hear him to start asking the guy if he can stay the night with him in the same room. 

[DieselDaisy]

4 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

The whole idea that a seven year old boy would think to ask to sleep over in the same bed as a grown man is ridiculous to me. They just don’t think like that at that age - unless someone suggests it to them. 

I have an 8 year old daughter and a 5 year old son and if either of them came to me and said they wanted to stay over in the same room as a 30 year old man (or woman) I’d wonder what the hell had been said to them. 

My son is a huge fan of Lionel Messi, he idolises him. I think he’d love to meet him but I wouldn’t expect to hear him to start asking the guy if he can stay the night with him in the same room. 

I don't agree. 

 

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

I don't agree. I think you are underestimating Jackson's cult like appeal, fame and fortune. 

I think only someone with limited experience with kids would think a child would be sò enthralled with a persons' appeal, fame and fortune (!) that they'd go, "can I sleep in your bed"?

[Len Cnut]

24 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

My son is a huge fan of Lionel Messi

Thats a good sign, he recognises class even at his age.

[DieselDaisy]

12 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I think only someone with limited experience with kids would think a child would be sò enthralled with a persons' appeal, fame and fortune (!) that they'd go, "can I sleep in your bed"?

Well you don't know anything about me so. We have already established that when you said some nonsense about me pertaining to foreigners and travel. I don't publicize my life unlike you.

Why are people so obsessed with the sleeping in the bed? I repeat (if we believe the documentary) - please look at the facts clearly people,

- MICHAEL HAD SEX WITH THE CHILDREN IN HIS PRIVATE CINEMA. 

- HE HAD SEX WITH THEM IN THE TREE HOUSE.

- HE HAD SEX IN THAT SUITE OF ROOMS HE LIVED IN LA (I.E. NOT EVEN NEVERLAND).

- HE HAD SEX WITH THEM IN OTHER HOTEL ROOMS (these kids went around the world with him).

- PART OF THE ''FUN'' WAS ACTUALLY THE ''RISK OF GETTING CAUGHT'' SO HE HAD SEX WITH THE CHILDREN IN MORE PUBLIC PLACES THAN HIS BEDROOM

- THEIR PARENTS WERE NOT OFTEN PRESENT (SO YOU HAVE TO ASK WHETHER YOU WOULD LEAVE YOUR KID IN HIS CUSTODY BEFORE PONDERING ON ANYTHING ELSE) 

Would you believe your child would agree to, go to the Neverland cinema with Michael? Why aren't you asking this question?

The bed thing is not even the issue! Some of these abused children might have had an innocent sleepover with Michael watching ET yet been molested somewhere else on the ranch. Some of these abused kids may have never seen the inside of his bed for all we know!

Edited March 18, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[SoulMonster]

3 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Well you don't know anything about me so. We have already established that when you said some nonsense about me pertaining to foreigners and travel. I don't publicize my life unlike you.

Why are people so obsessed with the sleeping in the bed?

Because someone here said that the kids themselves wanted to sleep in Jackson's bed. Hence we are discussing whether that is plausible or not. Don't be mad because we are not discussing what you want to discuss .

[action]

8 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Well you don't know anything about me so. We have already established that when you said some nonsense about me pertaining to foreigners and travel. I don't publicize my life unlike you.

Why are people so obsessed with the sleeping in the bed? I repeat (if we believe the documentary) - please look at the facts clearly people,

- MICHAEL HAD SEX WITH THE CHILDREN IN HIS PRIVATE CINEMA. 

- HE HAD SEX WITH THEM IN THE TREE HOUSE.

- HE HAD SEX IN THAT SUITE OF ROOMS HE LIVED IN LA (I.E. NOT EVEN NEVERLAND).

- HE HAD SEX WITH THEM IN OTHER HOTEL ROOMS (these kids went around the world with him).

- PART OF THE ''FUN'' WAS ACTUALLY THE ''RISK OF GETTING CAUGHT'' SO HE HAD SEX WITH THE CHILDREN IN MORE PUBLIC PLACES THAN HIS BEDROOM

- THEIR PARENTS WERE NOT OFTEN PRESENT (SO YOU HAVE TO ASK WHETHER YOU WOULD LEAVE YOUR KID IN HIS CUSTODY BEFORE PONDERING ON ANYTHING ELSE) 

Would you believe your child would agree to, go to the Neverland cinema with Michael? Why aren't you asking this question?

The bed thing is not even the issue! Some of these abused children might have had an innocent sleepover with Michael watching ET yet been molested somewhere else on the ranch. Some of these abused kids may have never seen the inside of his bed for all we know!

because people only read the headlines

"jackson likes to sleep with children in his bed"

it's too much effort for most people to delve deeper in the facts. that is a fact in and of itself

 

[DieselDaisy]

5 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Because someone here said that the kids themselves wanted to sleep in Jackson's bed. Hence we are discussing whether that is plausible or not. Don't be mad because we are not discussing what you want to discuss .

It is completely academic to whether or not they were molested, considering they were molested in every place conceivable including outside the Neverland Ranch. If you are going to query whether your child would sleep in Michael's bed, you could just as well ponder whether your child would agree to watch a film with Michael in his private cinema. Both cinema and bed were scenes of the crime afterall!

The fact Michael also molested them in his bed is probably one of the least surprising things about Leaving Neverland in light of what we already know from Bashir's documentary. 

[SoulMonster]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

It is completely academic to whether or not they were molested

I wasn't discussing whether they were molested. I was discussing whether a kid would express a desire to sleep in the bed with an adult that is not the kid's parent. And you were too, until you decided not to.

[DieselDaisy]

Also, by assuming ''no child would propose sleeping in Michael's bed'' you have to assume every child the world over is identical, and that every child's upbringing (i.e., parents) is identical. We have already been introduced to the high calibre parents: Evan Chandler, the Arvizos, Wade Robson's mother.

 

[MillionsOfSpiders]

32 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I don't agree. 

 

So a 7 year old boy meets Michael for the first time and it is all his own idea to ask him if he can stay with him in the hotel that night and in his room?

Just like that? 

[SoulMonster]

7 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Also, by assuming ''no child would propose sleeping in Michael's bed'' you have to assume every child the world over is identical, and that every child's upbringing (i.e., parents) is identical. We have already been introduced to the high calibre parents: Evan Chandler, the Arvizos, Wade Robson's mother.

I already addressed that in a post above: 

"Maybe my kids are just more sensible? Maybe there is a huge variation here from kid to kid? Maybe American kids are more blue-eyed or don't see the difference between other kids and grownups? Maybe the kids Jackson had were younger than 6?"

Funny how you are back to discussing what you consider to "not be the issue!" as soon as you think you have a good argument again 

[DieselDaisy]

9 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

So a 7 year old boy meets Michael for the first time and it is all his own idea to ask him if he can stay with him in the hotel that night and in his room?

Just like that? 

No. And I never said that.

And anyone who has watched Leaving Netherland will know that it never worked like that. We don't know of an incident when there wasn't a progressive escalation in the relationship between the child and Michael. He first met Wade Robson for instance in Australia at a talent concert, and then later met him at a concert; at no stage was any of this private. He first met Safechuck during a Pepsi commercial. During the first visits to Neverland (and this includes Chandler), the families were present.

It is difficult to even construct a hypothetical scenario whereby what you describe could have happened, given that the children initially met Michael in a very public way.

Edited March 18, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[action]

I don't blame people without children for thinking children would like to sleep in the same bed with their idol. at face value, you could think that a kid wouldn't have a problem with it (we, as adults, obviously have)

but to people without children, I suggest, if ever you pass some happening where little kids can take photographs with their idol, like some big ass teenage mutant ninja turtle or something, and they have to sit on their lap, well, watch some of these kids. Chances are, you will see a child crying faster than you can spell "peter pan".

for kis, having an idol is all well and good, as long as they stay on the tv. but when they suddenly see them in real life, and I see no reason why it would be different with worldfamous artists, some of them (many of them) would start crying especially if they came to the kid and shook hands or something

[DieselDaisy]

3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I already addressed that in a post above: 

"Maybe my kids are just more sensible? Maybe there is a huge variation here from kid to kid? Maybe American kids are more blue-eyed or don't see the difference between other kids and grownups? Maybe the kids Jackson had were younger than 6?"

Funny how you are back to discussing what you consider to "not be the issue!" as soon as you think you have a good argument again 

Oh, we come to the crux of the argument. Inflation of Soul's already over-inflated sense of ego.

[Dazey]

2 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

Thats not far from the reality of it, people here are generally fuckin' quite standoffish and I'm all about self preservation so just face forward, look what your doing and don't trip, thats my motto.

 

[EvanG]

I've only been to London twice, and I don't know if they're standoffish, but I did notice how polite and friendly they were... I'm not used to that.