Leaving Neverland, Michael Jackson Documentary, HBO

[Lio]

2 minutes ago, PatrickS77 said:

Where have I ever said it is normal?? It's the crux of the thing, that it is not normal, but everybody wants to assume the worst and is jumping to the worst conclusion. Why is it obvious that the boy was manipulated? Because you want it to be. Because you can't fathom that it was nothing than a huge room, a wide bed and a kid, who would rather, than stay with the parents or on their own in a strange unfamiliar room, spend more time with the person they had fun all day. Where you never a kid?? When I was a kid I sometimes had a friend stay with me at my grandparents. We could have slept in different rooms and different beds, but that thought never crossed our minds. We slept in the same room, same (double) bed and had more fun until we fell asleep.

It's obvious the boy was manipulated because he was only a boy and MJ was a grown man. You can't look at him as just a friend of his like any other two boys who are friends.

Yes, I've had sleepovers, but my friend would be my age. Not 40 when I was 7.

Or do you mean you and your friend slept in one bed with your grandparents? I can't say I've ever done that. With my own grandparents, yes, but not with other people's grandparents. Still, we're not talking about anything like that here. We're talking about one boy sleeping in a bed with someone they don't really know. Not once for a sleepover, but many times.

[PatrickS77]

16 minutes ago, Lio said:

It's obvious the boy was manipulated because he was only a boy and MJ was a grown man. You can't look at him as just a friend of his like any other two boys who are friends.

Yes, I've had sleepovers, but my friend would be my age. Not 40 when I was 7.

Or do you mean you and your friend slept in one bed with your grandparents? I can't say I've ever done that. With my own grandparents, yes, but not with other people's grandparents. Still, we're not talking about anything like that here. We're talking about one boy sleeping in a bed with someone they don't really know. Not once for a sleepover, but many times.

I hope you're smart enough to figure that one out. Otherwise, you shouldn't try to figure out whether Jackson was guilty or not?
 

But either way, again you're harping on what society deems "normal". As long as you can't get over that, you will never have an open mind and your reasoning will always go, he was strange so he must have done it, which really is way to easy.

[MillionsOfSpiders]

28 minutes ago, PatrickS77 said:

And yet according to Robson it happened, so what you believe doesn't really matter.

MJ invited them to the hotels and Neverland Ranch, he asked them to stay. One of them had only known him for a few hours when he and his sister was invited to stay the night with him. 

The sister was quickly dropped. 

[Dazey]

 

[EvanG]

15 hours ago, PatrickS77 said:

But either way, again you're harping on what society deems "normal". As long as you can't get over that, you will never have an open mind 

I tried to say something similar to this earlier in the thread, but I think not everyone is able to go down that road.

Those guys should take a polygraph test, I know it's not always reliable, but if they both pass it will make their accusation even more believable.

[DieselDaisy]

Dan Reed wants to do a sequel to Leaving Neverland apparently but requires Chandler and Arvizo, 

https://www.nme.com/news/music/leaving-neverland-director-dan-reed-wants-to-make-a-sequel-featuring-more-victims-2458470

[SoulMonster]

On ‎16‎.‎03‎.‎2019 at 9:05 PM, MillionsOfSpiders said:

I don’t believe that a boy of 7 or 10 would ask to sleep in the same bed as a grown man, no matter how much of a fan they were. I just don’t think it would enter the mind of such a young child - unless it was suggested to them by an adult. 

Absolutely. I would find it utterly absurd if any of my daughters (9 and 6) ever asked me if they could do it, and then I would have a very serious discussion with the man in question.

[DieselDaisy]

I actually disagree. I believe Jackson was being honest on the Bashir thing when he said ''they all want to sleep with me''.

[action]

6 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I actually disagree. I believe Jackson was being honest on the Bashir thing when he said ''they all want to sleep with me''.

it's not because jackson believed that, that it was the truth.

he could honestly believe it, but it could also be factually wrong at the same time.

they call this: "wishful thinking"

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, action said:

it's not because jackson believed that, that it was the truth.

he could honestly believe it, but it could also be factually wrong at the same time.

they call this: "wishful thinking"

I see no reason to doubt any of this,

 

[Len Cnut]

Quote

Where have I ever said it is normal?? It's the crux of the thing, that it is not normal, but everybody wants to assume the worst and is jumping to the worst conclusion.

No ones assuming the worst, just the logical.  The worst would be if he'd've fucked em killed em and ate em, sleeping with kids whatever way you hold it up, as a stranger, is weird.  PROPER weird.  And then when they start accusing you of fingering their bums you're about 70% of the way towards a convinced public and I'm not fuckin' surprised.

How about this, how about leaving peoples kids the fuck alone?  What part of that is complicated?  Just fuck off, leave other peoples kids alone, walk on the safe side of the street with this shit.  Listen, I fuckin' love kids, I see peoples kids in stores and on high streets and I think they're so gorgeous and wanna pick em up or say some shit to em but I don't, and thats pretty innocuous shit but I would never do that because of the way it would be percieved in this day and age, I love kids too, more than fuckin' adults, I get on with kids better than any other type of person but I don't go around doing that shit cuz its not fuckin' normal and would not be recieved well. 

[Lio]

13 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I actually disagree. I believe Jackson was being honest on the Bashir thing when he said ''they all want to sleep with me''.

I think I've only seen parts of that, long ago, but no kid would ask to sleep with a grown up. Unless it was being manipulated.

And God, does he look like a creep in there. When I showed my daughter what he looked like some years ago, she almost had nightmares after that. I'm willing to admit she's very sensitive though.

[Len Cnut]

16 minutes ago, Lio said:

 When I showed my daughter what he looked like some years ago, she almost had nightmares after that.

Help help, Cap'n Crunch is comin' to get me!

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, Lio said:

I think I've only seen parts of that, long ago, but no kid would ask to sleep with a grown up. Unless it was being manipulated.

And God, does he look like a creep in there. When I showed my daughter what he looked like some years ago, she almost had nightmares after that. I'm willing to admit she's very sensitive though.

Well that is the key.

Imagine what a child witnessed when entering Neverland. It was literally the ''kid in a sweet shop''. He/she would be bombarded with sensory overload of child related themes, Disney, fairgrounds, zoos, sweets, toys, gadgets and games. The actual setting is a sort of bucolic paradise with trees for tree climbing and so forth. Then you have Michael who successfully created/cultivated an image of being the perennial child, ''Peter Pan'' - so thoroughly asexual that parents allowed this (''sleeping'') activity to happen. The entire world basically bought into this image, so what chance do the actual children themselves have? Now what do kids do? They have sleepovers, or slumber parties or whatever they're called stateside.

It doesn't surprise me in the least that they wanted to sleep in his bed.

[Lio]

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Well that is the key.

Imagine what a child witnessed when entering Neverland. It was literally the ''kid in a sweet shop''. He/she would be bombarded with sensory overload of child related themes, Disney, fairgrounds, zoos, sweets, toys, gadgets and games. The actual setting is a sort of bucolic paradise with trees for tree climbing and so forth. Then you have Michael who successfully created/cultivated an image of being the perennial child, ''Peter Pan'' - so thoroughly asexual that parents allowed this (''sleeping'') activity to happen. The entire world basically bought into this image, so what chance do the actual children themselves have? Now what do kids do? They have sleepovers, or slumber parties or whatever they're called stateside.

It doesn't surprise me in the least that they wanted to sleep in his bed.

Apparently they did. What I mean is they've been manipulated into wanting it. I don't believe that a kid would come up with it themselves. Like I said: I don't even see why the kids had to be in his bedroom in the first place. The place is huge. There's no reason to take them to the bedroom, unless you want to lure them there for some reason.

[Len Cnut]

21 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Well that is the key.

Imagine what a child witnessed when entering Neverland. It was literally the ''kid in a sweet shop''. He/she would be bombarded with sensory overload of child related themes, Disney, fairgrounds, zoos, sweets, toys, gadgets and games. The actual setting is a sort of bucolic paradise with trees for tree climbing and so forth. Then you have Michael who successfully created/cultivated an image of being the perennial child, ''Peter Pan'' - so thoroughly asexual that parents allowed this (''sleeping'') activity to happen. The entire world basically bought into this image, so what chance do the actual children themselves have? Now what do kids do? They have sleepovers, or slumber parties or whatever they're called stateside.

It doesn't surprise me in the least that they wanted to sleep in his bed.

I WOULD'VE loved to be one of his boys, I could invite all my mates and take the fucker over, he'd've sent us back to our parents himself after getting flour bombed a few times!  I'd love to see him try and finger my mate Jakey, even at 11 years old the guy outweighed Jackp

[DieselDaisy]

7 minutes ago, Lio said:

Apparently they did. What I mean is they've been manipulated into wanting it. I don't believe that a kid would come up with it themselves. Like I said: I don't even see why the kids had to be in his bedroom in the first place. The place is huge. There's no reason to take them to the bedroom, unless you want to lure them there for some reason.

There does not seem to have been this great demarcation between private and public space here. They were in ''Michael's domain'', and often separated from their parents for significant periods of time. It was all one big childlike paradise, his bedroom included. Besides, if we believe Leaving Neverland, the sleeping in his bed issue is rather academic as sexual acts occurred all around the ranch, in his private cinema, etc. 

[action]

33 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

No ones assuming the worst, just the logical.  The worst would be if he'd've fucked em killed em and ate em, sleeping with kids whatever way you hold it up, as a stranger, is weird.  PROPER weird.  And then when they start accusing you of fingering their bums you're about 70% of the way towards a convinced public and I'm not fuckin' surprised.

How about this, how about leaving peoples kids the fuck alone?  What part of that is complicated?  Just fuck off, leave other peoples kids alone, walk on the safe side of the street with this shit.  Listen, I fuckin' love kids, I see peoples kids in stores and on high streets and I think they're so gorgeous and wanna pick em up or say some shit to em but I don't, and thats pretty innocuous shit but I would never do that because of the way it would be percieved in this day and age, I love kids too, more than fuckin' adults, I get on with kids better than any other type of person but I don't go around doing that shit cuz its not fuckin' normal and would not be recieved well. 

I've had this one kid pestering me the other day, asking me what car I had or some other stupid thing, I don't know where or when it was or what the occasion was, but in any case I was thinking "just leave me the fuck alone" but the boy just wouldn't stop. I walked a couple of meters away but he still followed me.

This whole time I just ignored the kid, effectively looking through him as if he  was air, but as they say... "kids these days".

Now imagine if that kid has a tantrum for me ignoring him and goes crying with his dad. I'd still see the wrong side of his fist and there's not a damn thing you can do about it.

[Len Cnut]

14 minutes ago, action said:

I've had this one kid pestering me the other day, asking me what car I had or some other stupid thing, I don't know where or when it was or what the occasion was, but in any case I was thinking "just leave me the fuck alone" but the boy just wouldn't stop. I walked a couple of meters away but he still followed me.

This whole time I just ignored the kid, effectively looking through him as if he  was air, but as they say... "kids these days".

Now imagine if that kid has a tantrum for me ignoring him and goes crying with his dad. I'd still see the wrong side of his fist and there's not a damn thing you can do about it.

I have a really big mouth so its an act of restraint for me to keep from saying my little pithy comments but even like...commenting about shit where like other peoples kids are involved is probably not a good fuckin' idea, I have this terrible habit that whenever I'm in the shops and someones kid is like crying to their Mum cuz they won't buy them 'x' sweets or whatever I have this tendency to go 'oh go on Mum, don't be out of order, get him the sweets', most people laugh it off but the odd one has shot me like a dirty look like 'what the fucks it got to do with you?'.  Its that much of like...a touchy thing these days so like, yeah, best to keep your mouth shut and mind your own fuckin' business, like you did in the above mentioned situation.

[DieselDaisy]

Londoner arse face syndrome writ-large. 

[Len Cnut]

12 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Londoner arse face syndrome writ-large. 

Thats not far from the reality of it, people here are generally fuckin' quite standoffish and I'm all about self preservation so just face forward, look what your doing and don't trip, thats my motto.

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, Len Cnut said:

Thats not far from the reality of it, people here are generally fuckin' quite standoffish and I'm all about self preservation so just face forward, look what your doing and don't trip, thats my motto.

What you describe, and all this paranoia about children, is rather bleak. It basically assumes every adult is a paedophile haha. 

[action]

6 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I have a really big mouth so its an act of restraint for me to keep from saying my little pithy comments but even like...commenting about shit where like other peoples kids are involved is probably not a good fuckin' idea, I have this terrible habit that whenever I'm in the shops and someones kid is like crying to their Mum cuz they won't buy them 'x' sweets or whatever I have this tendency to go 'oh go on Mum, don't be out of order, get him the sweets', most people laugh it off but the odd one has shot me like a dirty look like 'what the fucks it got to do with you?'.  Its that much of like...a touchy thing these days so like, yeah, best to keep your mouth shut and mind your own fuckin' business, like you did in the above mentioned situation.

well thb len, and I say this with all the respect in the world, but if I didn't know you and you came to me and told me how to raise my kid, I'd probably ask you to get lost or something equally unsympathetic

raising kids these days is hard enough work "as is", without some bystander undermining the little bit of credibility I had left with my kid. It's war, Len. It's a goddamn war every day, and you can never win.

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

I actually disagree. I believe Jackson was being honest on the Bashir thing when he said ''they all want to sleep with me''.

As a father, I find that absolutely ludicrous 

I tend to be around kids a lot, our house seems to be perpetually full of them. And occasionally I do develop a great connection with some of them, where it is obvious they like me (for cryptic reasons). Like there was this girl who would also come running and give me a hug when she saw me, and wanted to sit on my lap all he time. Just craving intimacy. But if any of these kids actually expressed any desire to sleep in my bed next to me, then I would be completely flabbergasted and quite frankly worried. That is something else entirely, to the kid.

I do get that Michael Jackson was not like me, sure. He was probably child-like and the kids might have been mesmerized by the environment of Neverland, but I would still find it VERY weird if any kids visiting Jackson would ask if they could share his bed. My kids at 9 and 6 know this is not natural, that this is not something they should do, that adults are not kids and that sleeping next to adults (unless it is the parents) is not okay or natural. They seem to know this instinctively. Regardless of how much they enjoyed the company of him, and how cool it was to be with him, they wouldn't ask to sleep with him. 

Maybe my kids are just more sensible? Maybe there is a huge variation here from kid to kid? Maybe American kids are more blue-eyed or don't see the difference between other kids and grownups? Maybe the kids Jackson had were younger than 6?

To me it just sounds completely implausible.

[Len Cnut]

11 minutes ago, action said:

well thb len, and I say this with all the respect in the world, but if I didn't know you and you came to me and told me how to raise my kid, I'd probably ask you to get lost or something equally unsympathetic

raising kids these days is hard enough work "as is", without some bystander undermining the little bit of credibility I had left with my kid. It's war, Len. It's a goddamn war every day, and you can never win.

Its all about the tone though innit, I mean its clearly a joke, why would you take that seriously?   its literally like a passing jokey comment, its not like I stand there and drill them on that shit

Edited March 18, 2019 by Len Cnut