DieselDaisy Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, Graeme said: I think the left are driven entirely by empathy actually, it's basically the essence of collectivism/universalism to look at people who are different to you, be that on grounds of nationality, race, belief, sexual orientation, gender, etc. and to aspire to a society where these variations are to the detriment of none. It's the right who're sufficiently incapable of putting themselves in the shoes of people who aren't exactly like they are, to pursue individualism, isolationism and closed borders, aggressive foreign policy, xenophobia etc. Totally disagree. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitha_whiskey Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 1 minute ago, Graeme said: I think the left are driven entirely by empathy actually, it's basically the essence of collectivism/universalism to look at people who are different to you, be that on grounds of nationality, race, belief, sexual orientation, gender, etc. and to aspire to a society where these variations are to the detriment of none. It's the right who're sufficiently incapable of putting themselves in the shoes of people who aren't exactly like they are, to pursue individualism, isolationism and closed borders, aggressive foreign policy, xenophobia etc. I think you're pretty right on here. When I was younger, I lived in a small town and everyone thought a certain way. I thought, why doesn't everyone think this way? When I went to college, I met all kinds of diverse people from different backgrounds. I realized the way you see the world is very different depending on a lot of things. Meaning I gained empathy. That's what it's all about if you ask me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 Apparently the left has a monopoly on empathy. How about human decency? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitha_whiskey Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 8 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: Apparently the left has a monopoly on empathy. How about human decency? Well, in America, apparently they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 7 minutes ago, Fitha_whiskey said: I think you're pretty right on here. When I was younger, I lived in a small town and everyone thought a certain way. I thought, why doesn't everyone think this way? When I went to college, I met all kinds of diverse people from different backgrounds. I realized the way you see the world is very different depending on a lot of things. Meaning I gained empathy. That's what it's all about if you ask me. Well, it's never the right who get the accusation "bleeding heart" levelled at them, is it...? I always thought that was an absolutely facile insult anyway "look at you, you terrible person, caring too much about others." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 But you do not care about other people? You have a total disregard to people of an opposing opinion, to the extent that you resort to disgusting insults (witness what happened when Thatcher died)? You (the left) degrade people of opposite opinions. You undermine their religion, accusing them of ignorance or bigotry. You undermine their newspapers. You take to the street in protest when a democratic verdict is recorded. You insist on a recount. There is literally no human decency in the left. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitha_whiskey Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 7 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: But you do not care about other people? I'm not trying to get between a Great Britain thing, but when I say I gained empathy, I mean I understand their view and care about it. But you weren't quoting me so I digress... #drankin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 12 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: But you do not care about other people? You have a total disregard to people of an opposing opinion, to the extent that you resort to disgusting insults (witness what happened when Thatcher died)? You (the left) degrade people of opposite opinions. You undermine their religion, accusing them of ignorance or bigotry. You undermine their newspapers. You take to the street in protest when a democratic verdict is recorded. You insist on a recount. There is literally no human decency in the left. I find an intolerance for people's actions and decisions (i.e. how they choose to conduct themselves) to be entirely acceptable. The right, on the other hand, generally discriminates against people because of things they have no control over. Look at you getting outraged by unkind words said about Margaret Thatcher rather than the financial hardship endured by thousands of families due to her unkind policy decisions that put the rampant wealth accruement of a relatively tiny group of people in the financial sector of the City of London over the livelihoods of more than 2 million people who happened to have been born in Northern England, Wales or that other country you don't like me mentioning... Where's the decency in that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 Just now, Graeme said: I find an intolerance for people's actions and decisions (i.e. how they choose to conduct themselves) to be entirely acceptable. The right, on the other hand, generally discriminates against people because of things they have no control over. Look at you getting outraged by unkind words said about Margaret Thatcher rather than the financial hardship endured by thousands of families due to her unkind policy decisions that put the rampant wealth accruement of a relatively tiny group of people in the financial sector of the City of London over the livelihoods of more than 2 million people who happened to have been born in Northern England, Wales or that other country you don't like me mentioning... Where's the decency in that? The decency will be fought over in Westminster. I disagreed with much of Thatcher's polices but there is no way in hell you will see me somehow, delirious upon her death. That sir is un gentleman like. Just as it is un gentleman like to not shake Trump's hand (despite disbelieving everything he says). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 I can assure you that I was not delirious on hearing of Thatcher's death for any other reason than I was having the time of my life on a field excursion to Mount Etna (though I found the media's lack of willingness to address the negative aspects of her legacy when eulogising her hugely disappointing) and nor have I ever had to be in the position to turn down shaking Donald Trump's hand. I have no conceit of myself as a gentleman, but I believe there are some on this forum who would vouch for me if necessary. Having said that, a key feature of liberal democracy is that the will of the people is enacted according to the electoral rules (as has occurred, Trump is now President) but if one is unhappy with that, one is free to express that displeasure. "The will of the people" is not exempt from criticism and if hundreds of thousands of Americans (or people around the world) wish to take to the streets to voice that criticism then they are well within their right to do so. When a political party loses a general election, it is not required to renounce its political position and accept without dissent the enaction of its victorious opponent's manifesto. It's expected to "hold them to account" at every turn. As you've said yourself, many people find Trump's values and conduct unacceptable... If they want to get out and make that heard, it's basically a scaled-up and massively participatory version of this entirely democratic phenomenon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskey Rose Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 What I cannot understand is why someone who voted for Trump is automatically accused of being xenophobic, homophobic, racist, etc. Perhaps they voted for him because their friends and families lost their jobs due to mass Industry exit? You know, those companies who take their factories to another country so that they can make bigger profits off the backs of exploited workers who toil long hours for inhumane pay..And then because there are less jobs, they lose their homes..and because there are less homes to look after, landscapers and carpenters and plumbers lose their work, and there are no new homes being built bc no one can afford them, and therefore construction companies lose their work, and have to lay off their workers..and the domino effect goes on. So perhaps these people voted not for Trump, but for what he pledged he would do, which was bring industry back to America so that people could have a stable life for them and their families, which is really what all people want. Yet those on the left say No, those are "bad" people because they are on the Right and voted Trump therefore deserve to be insulted and vilified. All without taking into consideration people as Individuals, as opposed to a political leaning. I just cannot fathom this. It's such a binary way of looking at the world. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxlsFavoriteRose Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 6 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said: What I cannot understand is why someone who voted for Trump is automatically accused of being xenophobic, homophobic, racist, etc. Perhaps they voted for him because their friends and families lost their jobs due to mass Industry exit? You know, those companies who take their factories to another country so that they can make bigger profits off the backs of exploited workers who toil long hours for inhumane pay..And then because there are less jobs, they lose their homes..and because there are less homes to look after, landscapers and carpenters and plumbers lose their work, and there are no new homes being built bc no one can afford them, and therefore construction companies lose their work, and have to lay off their workers..and the domino effect goes on. So perhaps these people voted not for Trump, but for what he pledged he would do, which was bring industry back to America so that people could have a stable life for them and their families, which is really what all people want. Yet those on the left say No, those are "bad" people because they are on the Right and voted Trump therefore deserve to be insulted and vilified. All without taking into consideration people as Individuals, as opposed to a political leaning. I just cannot fathom this. It's such a binary way of looking at the world. well said @Whiskey Rose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 4 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said: What I cannot understand is why someone who voted for Trump is automatically accused of being xenophobic, homophobic, racist, etc. Perhaps they voted for him because their friends and families lost their jobs due to mass Industry exit? You know, those companies who take their factories to another country so that they can make bigger profits off the backs of exploited workers who toil long hours for inhumane pay..And then because there are less jobs, they lose their homes..and because there are less homes to look after, landscapers and carpenters and plumbers lose their work, and there are no new homes being built bc no one can afford them, and therefore construction companies lose their work, and have to lay off their workers..and the domino effect goes on. So perhaps these people voted not for Trump, but for what he pledged he would do, which was bring industry back to America so that people could have a stable life for them and their families, which is really what all people want. Yet those on the left say No, those are "bad" people because they are on the Right and voted Trump therefore deserve to be insulted and vilified. All without taking into consideration people as Individuals, as opposed to a political leaning. I just cannot fathom this. It's such a binary way of looking at the world. Because turning to the right to solve problems of poverty caused by unemployment and low wages is the equivalent of trying to put out a house fire with a flamethrower. Right-wing economics generally results in a wealth distribution pattern that we see writ large on a global scale where 8 people now have as much money between them as the poorest half of the world's population, (it's pretty similar for the US as a whole) the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Trump's economic policies that encourage tax breaks (or actually, tax avoidance) for big companies will -maybe- allow for increased profit margins, but trickle-down economics doesn't really work. None of the disenfranchised unemployed rust-belt workers who voted for him are really going to benefit in the long term (especially not when long-distance haulage becomes mostly automated and throws another sector under the bus, as it were). Also, in voting for their own self-interest, they were willing to throw the people of Mexico, the LGBT community, women's reproductive rights and the planet that EVERYONE has to live on (given Trump's utter denial that anything needs done to halt anthropogenic Climate Change) to the wolves. That's a hugely ignorant decision, worthy of contempt in my eyes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskey Rose Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 8 minutes ago, Graeme said: Also, in voting for their own self-interest, they were willing to throw the people of Mexico, the LGBT community, women's reproductive rights and the planet that EVERYONE has to live on (given Trump's utter denial that anything needs done to halt anthropogenic Climate Change) to the wolves. That's a hugely ignorant decision, worthy of contempt in my eyes. Worthy of contempt? That seems very smug. Well, if people being worried that they can't provide a roof over the heads of their children is worthy of contempt, then I shall leave you to it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 7 hours ago, AxlsFavoriteRose said: not all of us If you're on this site you aren't people, you are some kind of demo for a hologram. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxlsFavoriteRose Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 1 minute ago, wasted said: If you're on this site you aren't people, you are some kind of demo for a hologram. oh God can i get what you're on??? pleaaaaaaase? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 2 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said: Worthy of contempt? That seems very smug. Well, if people being worried that they can't provide a roof over the heads of their children is worthy of contempt, then I shall leave you to it. Do the roofs over the heads of kids in Mexico, where the devaluation of their currency has been profound since Trump's election and where their economy will likely only worsen if Trump pursues his policy of tearing up the North American trade agreements not count too? What about the people who will be turned into climate refugees by rising sea levels, changing weather patterns, a higher frequency of severe storms and increased desertification as a result of the U.S.'s huge per capita output of greenhouse gases? As opposed to the comparatively negligible per capita output of greenhouse gases in the most severely affected economies... The very people who're least responsible are suffering the most. What about all those driven to severe depression or worse by discriminatory policies like "don't ask don't tell", endorsed wholeheartedly by Trump's VP? How am I being callous by caring about this stuff? I don't want the kids of people who voted for Trump to suffer either, but as I explained, I don't think that Trump's policies will actually do anything to prevent that... It's like standing watching a person try and fight their house fire with a flamethrower... You can hold their decision to do so in contempt. Let's face it, it's a reallly, really bad decision. It doesn't mean you want to see their house burn down... The problem is that this flamethrower is also directed at a whole lot of people who don't deserve to get burnt, and I hate to see that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 31 minutes ago, AxlsFavoriteRose said: oh God can i get what you're on??? pleaaaaaaase? No it's too primo for holograms. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downzy Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 3 hours ago, Graeme said: Do the roofs over the heads of kids in Mexico, where the devaluation of their currency has been profound since Trump's election and where their economy will likely only worsen if Trump pursues his policy of tearing up the North American trade agreements not count too? What about the people who will be turned into climate refugees by rising sea levels, changing weather patterns, a higher frequency of severe storms and increased desertification as a result of the U.S.'s huge per capita output of greenhouse gases? As opposed to the comparatively negligible per capita output of greenhouse gases in the most severely affected economies... The very people who're least responsible are suffering the most. What about all those driven to severe depression or worse by discriminatory policies like "don't ask don't tell", endorsed wholeheartedly by Trump's VP? How am I being callous by caring about this stuff? I don't want the kids of people who voted for Trump to suffer either, but as I explained, I don't think that Trump's policies will actually do anything to prevent that... It's like standing watching a person try and fight their house fire with a flamethrower... You can hold their decision to do so in contempt. Let's face it, it's a reallly, really bad decision. It doesn't mean you want to see their house burn down... The problem is that this flamethrower is also directed at a whole lot of people who don't deserve to get burnt, and I hate to see that. Well said. Whenever I hear people say, "well, you've got to give Trump a chance," I always think, would these same people say the same to a drunk about to get behind the wheel of a car? Save for Trump's views on trade policy, he's really no different than conservatives who believe the answer is always lower taxes and less deregulation. And on trade, the idea that protectionism will bring back jobs is just plain wrong nor is it viable in the long term. But you know, facts... Who gives a shit about them anymore. Guess people will always need to learn the hard way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAJones Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 6 hours ago, Graeme said: Because turning to the right to solve problems of poverty caused by unemployment and low wages is the equivalent of trying to put out a house fire with a flamethrower. The problem with turning to the left to solve problems of any sort is eventually they'll run out of other people's money. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, Graeme said: I can assure you that I was not delirious on hearing of Thatcher's death for any other reason than I was having the time of my life on a field excursion to Mount Etna (though I found the media's lack of willingness to address the negative aspects of her legacy when eulogising her hugely disappointing) and nor have I ever had to be in the position to turn down shaking Donald Trump's hand. I have no conceit of myself as a gentleman, but I believe there are some on this forum who would vouch for me if necessary. Having said that, a key feature of liberal democracy is that the will of the people is enacted according to the electoral rules (as has occurred, Trump is now President) but if one is unhappy with that, one is free to express that displeasure. "The will of the people" is not exempt from criticism and if hundreds of thousands of Americans (or people around the world) wish to take to the streets to voice that criticism then they are well within their right to do so. When a political party loses a general election, it is not required to renounce its political position and accept without dissent the enaction of its victorious opponent's manifesto. It's expected to "hold them to account" at every turn. As you've said yourself, many people find Trump's values and conduct unacceptable... If they want to get out and make that heard, it's basically a scaled-up and massively participatory version of this entirely democratic phenomenon. They have actually questioned Trump's political mandate though (''not my president''); similarly the SNP want to run countless referenda until their public produces the ''correct'' result. There is a definite anti-democratic trend among global lefties, an inability to even countenance the fact that a right has a right - no pun intended - to exist. Look at the way Brexit voters were demonised in our lefty press as xenophobes and ''little Englanders''. I did not vote either way but this was truly disgusting. Edited January 22, 2017 by DieselDaisy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Whiskey Rose Posted January 22, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted January 22, 2017 9 hours ago, Graeme said: Do the roofs over the heads of kids in Mexico, where the devaluation of their currency has been profound since Trump's election and where their economy will likely only worsen if Trump pursues his policy of tearing up the North American trade agreements not count too? What about the people who will be turned into climate refugees by rising sea levels, changing weather patterns, a higher frequency of severe storms and increased desertification as a result of the U.S.'s huge per capita output of greenhouse gases? As opposed to the comparatively negligible per capita output of greenhouse gases in the most severely affected economies... The very people who're least responsible are suffering the most. What about all those driven to severe depression or worse by discriminatory policies like "don't ask don't tell", endorsed wholeheartedly by Trump's VP? How am I being callous by caring about this stuff? I don't want the kids of people who voted for Trump to suffer either, but as I explained, I don't think that Trump's policies will actually do anything to prevent that... It's like standing watching a person try and fight their house fire with a flamethrower... You can hold their decision to do so in contempt. Let's face it, it's a reallly, really bad decision. It doesn't mean you want to see their house burn down... The problem is that this flamethrower is also directed at a whole lot of people who don't deserve to get burnt, and I hate to see that. But see, this is exactly what I was saying...out of all those people on the right, the left don't think any of them care about the environment? They don't think any of them have gay friends and family members that they want to see have equal freedoms to live their life? They don't think any of them would be kind to refugees that show up in their town? They don't think they have sent money and clothes and supplies to those who have suffered from disasters and persecution? They don't think they teach their children manners, respect for others, and how to be productive, giving people? Because they do and have. Yet they are still considered deserving of contempt from the left because a top priority for them right now is to earn a decent living. All I see right now in newspapers and social media, is a spew of hate and bile against others, and it's coming from the left, the supposed empathetic and inclusionary side. I don't understand how this is okay. It makes my stomach ache. Whether it was a bad decision or not to vote Trump in remains to be seen..but I don't think anyone should attack others and call them racist or homophobe just because their view or understanding of something differs from one's own. And that is exactly what is happening. Empathy and respect for others opinions and views needs to come from all sides. Even if you think they are wrong. But of course this is just my opinion. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 6 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said: But see, this is exactly what I was saying...out of all those people on the right, the left don't think any of them care about the environment? They don't think any of them have gay friends and family members that they want to see have equal freedoms to live their life? They don't think any of them would be kind to refugees that show up in their town? They don't think they have sent money and clothes and supplies to those who have suffered from disasters and persecution? They don't think they teach their children manners, respect for others, and how to be productive, giving people? Because they do and have. Yet they are still considered deserving of contempt from the left because a top priority for them right now is to earn a decent living. All I see right now in newspapers and social media, is a spew of hate and bile against others, and it's coming from the left, the supposed empathetic and inclusionary side. I don't understand how this is okay. It makes my stomach ache. Whether it was a bad decision or not to vote Trump in remains to be seen..but I don't think anyone should attack others and call them racist or homophobe just because their view or understanding of something differs from one's own. And that is exactly what is happening. Empathy and respect for others opinions and views needs to come from all sides. Even if you think they are wrong. But of course this is just my opinion. Everybody who voted for brexit was a ''narrow minded Little Englander'' apparently. The bile spewed out by the overwhelmingly leftish press in Britain, including the BBC, was abhorrent. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 Here is empathy for you, Labour, Britain's left-wing party, is riddled with antisemitism and holocaust denial. Their current leader is chums with IRA terrorists. Empathy haha. What a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknroll41 Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 I just killed my facebook account cause I couldn't take all the elitist retards (mainly on the left) who kept using the newsfeed as a soapbox to act like they knew what they were talking about and that their opinion on Trump was of authority. So I guess that makes this forum my only source of social media now! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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