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STAR WARS: RISE OF SKYWALKER - SPOILERS!!!

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23 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

People are really lowering their expectations here because they want to like this film. It is utter garbage. 

That. And really offered nothing. Except old heroes dying without having one scene together. To me the continuation of the saga will always be the now discarded EU. Fuck the new/remake trilogy. As a whole, it was a total fail.

Edited by PatrickS77

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10 minutes ago, Amir said:

I didn't "want" to like the film, I had low expectations because I didn't care much for the last two and the Metacritic score was middling. In the end, I had fun in the cinema, liked the characters, maybe I'll see it again on a flight or something.

It is just that the positive reviews here - and I'm not just picking on you - are full of a multitude of caveats such as ''it had issues'', ''messy plotting'', but conclude with the assessment that a fun time was had. The barometer is being lowered. 

Remember when Star Wars films did not require caveats but were generally great films, i.e., the original trilogy?

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5 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

It is just that the positive reviews here - and I'm not just picking on you - are full of a multitude of caveats such as ''it had issues'', ''messy plotting'', but conclude with the assessment that a fun time was had. The barometer is being lowered. 

Remember when Star Wars films did not require caveats but were generally great films, i.e., the original trilogy?

I dont agree necessarily with that. I adore the OT, but if those came out today there would be way more nitpicking with them. Especially ROTJ

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6 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Remember when Star Wars films did not require caveats but were generally great films, i.e., the original trilogy?

I've always found A New Hope to be boring as hell, while I found Return of the Jedi to be one giant toy commercial. The only one of those episodes that's I truly enjoyed is Empire Strikes Back. 

I loved The Forces Awakens, hated The Last Jedi and loved Rise of Skywalker. 

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3 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

I dont agree necessarily with that. I adore the OT, but if those came out today there would be way more nitpicking with them. Especially ROTJ

If you remove the Ewoks from Jedi you are left with a reasonably flawless trilogy I'd say.

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6 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

If you remove the Ewoks from Jedi you are left with a reasonably flawless trilogy I'd say.

Even without the Ewoks the movie is all over the place. The first third is a convoluted side quest that has nothing to do with the main story asode from rescuing Han, Hans character is neutered, and the sister reveal is quick and glossed over.

There's still a lot of excellent stuff and I love ROTJ but nostalgia and it being a product of its time are obviously huge factors 

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4 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

Even without the Ewoks the movie is all over the place. The first third is a convoluted side quest that has nothing to do with the main story asode from rescuing Han, Hans character is neutered, and the sister reveal is quick and glossed over.

There's still a lot of excellent stuff and I love ROTJ but nostalgia and it being a product of its time are obviously huge factors 

I think it is a bit better than that. If I was going to review the original trilogy out of 5, the first two would each get a 5 whilst Jedi would get a 4. The lightsaber scene is one of the most iconic scenes in the saga, and the space battle the very finest of all the space battles. There is literally not a single moment in the sequels that is worth a fraction of any of that.

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25 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

 The lightsaber scene is one of the most iconic scenes in the saga, and the space battle the very finest of all the space battles. 

Yes

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40 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

Even without the Ewoks the movie is all over the place. The first third is a convoluted side quest that has nothing to do with the main story asode from rescuing Han, Hans character is neutered, and the sister reveal is quick and glossed over.

There's still a lot of excellent stuff and I love ROTJ but nostalgia and it being a product of its time are obviously huge factors 

At least Luke didn't force project fight himself into Jabba's lair. Would have made things much easier though to rescue him. 2 bad writers didn't pull that out of their ass then. I wouldn't really say that getting a main character back is a side plot. But guess what, they had one of those in Rise too.

Edited by PatrickS77
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4 hours ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Excellent post on reddit backing me up, with facts and logic

 

These kinds of write-ups just replace one type of logic for another. Han doesn't have to be good at flying just because he's a smuggler. They could've introduced his character and then established Chewie as the main pilot who did all the flying. There's no logic there. That user is just assuming that Han's an established pilot because he was a smuggler. Doesn't really make any more sense than anything else in the SW universe, really. Viewers will connect the dots, sure. But if someone says to me, "Well, Han is a great pilot because he's a smuggler," then I'm not really caring about that. It's not necessarily an inevitable connection to be made.

Then you get the lovely "Well, in the canon book..." fluff that no one actually gives a shit about. There are companion books to the sequel trilogy that explain many other details, too. But no one ever references those because "DISNEY SUCKS" and whatever. In fact, the books offer a much more well-rounded explanation of certain details, including Rey's characterizations and whatnot. But either way, whether it's the Original Trilogy or the Sequel Trilogy, the movies should be able to explain themselves. So, that evidence should be disregarded altogether.

I'm not defending the Sequel Trilogy too much here. There's no doubt there are massive holes and plot points that make no sense, sloppy characterizations, etc. But these "arguments" from those that think the Original Trilogy is so pure are laughable at best. At the end of the day, all of the movies have certain flaws. They're not perfect. And anyone who says "Mary Sue" in any kind of context is annoying and attaches themselves to too much internet groupthink material.

Edited by Zeppelin
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4 hours ago, downzy said:

Kylo Ren is Sith Lord in the Force Awakens?   

I must have missed that part of the film.  I do recall Smoke saying that Kylo needed to return to complete his training.

Nor was Ben Solo ever a Jedi.  He was training to be one.

Also your passage above excuses Rey's use of a staff as a weapon at the beginning TFA.

Also, I don't recall seeing Luke training with the lightsaber in Empire Strikes Back.  There's a 30 second scene in A New Hope.

I suppose all Luke needed was Ghost Obi One whispering in his ear "use the force" to mind control his lightsaber while stuck in the ice at the beginning of ESB.  How does Luke know this is a Jedi power?  He hadn't met Yoda yet.

You're just making excuses.  

It's a movie.  We give passes to characters all the time for doing things where no explanation is given as to how or why they can do it.  A female character does it and it's an example of bad writing and SJWism. And it's a complaint always made by men.  

By these statements that you clearly don't know your star wars lore properly. Luke did try to train by himself, both on Legends and Canon. In canon, which is what this film follows, he goes to find Obi Wan's journal and tries to get in the jedi temple in coruscant, fights with Vader and is contacted by obi wan. Much has happened between 4 and 5, which THREE YEARS apart. Still, on 5 what impressive feat doea Luke do? Pull a lightsaber on the wampa cave? Gets his speeder shot down? Gets humiliated by Yoda's much superior force powers? Gets beaten badlly by Darth Vader, who wasn't trying to kill him, actually he was trying to bring him to the dark side. All Luke does is a force-powered jump and that's it. A little reminder, that Vader is not in his prime and is hampered by his suit and unable to use his signature Form V Shien and to rely on Djem So more, also as Darth Vader he was basically unable to perform his Ataru acrobatics, he was no Yoda, but he had a good grip on form IV. In other words, Luke is not a Gary Stu and stop saying mary sue is sexist when we have a male version too, blind white knighting at its best.

Compare this to Rey that kept Kylo out of her mind, even Snoke was impressed and said she is only a scavenger and Kylo said it's because she's strong without any explanation (That's a mary sue/gary stu character), unlike Anakin which was conceived by the force- and maybe Plagueis and Sidious). She also managed to beat Kylo EVERYTIME. She never lost a fight. She even pulled off the mind trick without any training. If luke was scolded for being brash and didn't really make anything impressive, Rey came in and Luke's reaction was "I've only seen this raw strength before once" referring to his retarded nephew, the same one known for being Rey's punchbag and the ugliest lifeform in the galaxy.

 

As for the movie, it's a turd. I can't blame Jar Jar for that. Johnson crippled this trilogy with 8. 7 kinda already made the OT meaningless by destroying the core worlds with the starkiller base.

You know, episode 7, apart for destroying the core worlds and undermining the OT, wasn't bad. Many fans were angry because of the end of the old EU and Lucas Games, but mostly were ok with 7, but 8 simply derailed things so bad there was no salvation.

We were claiming for stories like the Thrawn trilogy or the Vong Wars. The Old EU was messy, but Disney could've organized it. We just wanted good characters like:

Mara Jade Skywalker

Jaina Solo

Tenel Ka Djo

Tahiri Veila

Lady Lumia

Leia's way more powerful legends version

All of them are very strong female characters, especially Jaina. We wanted that, only to be called sexist by white knights.

I don't even know why it's called Rise of Skywalker. The line of the boy who was conceived by the force is well... spoilers. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

By these statements that you clearly don't know your star wars lore properly. Luke did try to train by himself, both on Legends and Canon. In canon, which is what this film follows, he goes to find Obi Wan's journal and tries to get in the jedi temple in coruscant, fights with Vader and is contacted by obi wan. Much has happened between 4 and 5, which THREE YEARS apart. Still, on 5 what impressive feat doea Luke do? Pull a lightsaber on the wampa cave? Gets his speeder shot down? Gets humiliated by Yoda's much superior force powers? Gets beaten badlly by Darth Vader, who wasn't trying to kill him, actually he was trying to bring him to the dark side. All Luke does is a force-powered jump and that's it. A little reminder, that Vader is not in his prime and is hampered by his suit and unable to use his signature Form V Shien and to rely on Djem So more, also as Darth Vader he was basically unable to perform his Ataru acrobatics, he was no Yoda, but he had a good grip on form IV. In other words, Luke is not a Gary Stu and stop saying mary sue is sexist when we have a male version too, blind white knighting at its best.

But none of this is in the film.

All of this is written years after the film.

Moreover, how is any of this consider canon?  I thought most of the extended universe and books were discarded once Disney bought the film rights?

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I've arrived at the conclusion that one of the problems (and there were many) of the production was the choice of Chris Terrio as co-screenwriter.

For awhile , I admired Terrio's writing on "Argo" and how he was able to take a political incident and turn it into a seventies themed adventure movie that owed quite a bit, to Star Wars. He impressed me, with that movie, just like he impressed JJ.

But look at what the guy has been involved in since; Batman V. Superman and Justice League.

 

Taken together, Batman v. Superman, Justice League and Rise of Skywalker are chalked full of ideas that are incoherent and are ill-prepared for a major tent-pole movie. All three films had huge parts of them shuffled, edited, spliced and thrown in the air. They are all narrative messes and none of them stick to the landing. 

Basically, I realize now that Chris Terrio wrote a simple and great story for Argo because the story was already there. The work was done for him, he just had to figure out a way to make it as cinematic as possible.

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21 minutes ago, downzy said:

But none of this is in the film.

All of this is written years after the film.

Moreover, how is any of this consider canon?  I thought most of the extended universe and books were discarded once Disney bought the film rights?

There are new books that receive the canon label and Disney reckons they are canon.

Not all books came before movies. Splinter of the mind's eye takes place after 4 and before 5 and was released in '78.

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Also much of it was written after the movies were released. True, but from 4 to 5 there's a 3-year gap. The same can't be said about 7 to 8, since one takes place directly after the other.

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38 minutes ago, PatrickS77 said:

At least Luke didn't force project fight himself into Jabba's lair. Would have made things much easier though to rescue him. 2 bad writers didn't pull that out of their ass then. I wouldn't really say that getting a main character back is a side plot. But guess what, they had one of those in Rise too.

Relax big guy, I'm not saying the originals are bad in any way or even directly comparing it to the new one. Of course the OT is untouchable

I'm saying we naturally have rose tinted goggles when remembering a lot of things so we let certain things slide. Since 1983, this is a nostalgia ran franchise and thats okay for me. 

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8 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

There are new books that receive the canon label and Disney reckons they are canon.

Not all books came before movies. Splinter of the mind's eye takes place after 4 and before 5 and was released in '78.

But the point I'm trying to make here is that it's unfair to judge the merits of the new films that, as far as I can tell, don't have the benefit of authorized or canonized books to flesh things out.

Most people who watch the films aren't going to read every book to have everything explained to them.  

How Luke became wise with the force between ANH and ESB isn't elaborated or explained in the films.  If it's not in the movies, for most people, it remains unclear.

Luke's story only really makes sense his entire storyline is explained.  Once the audience finds out that he's Vader's son, things start to make more sense as to why he can wield a lightsaber with skill far beyond what little training so far portrayed would provide.  It now makes sense that a guy who has never flown a fighter spacecraft becomes a master his first flight out and can blow up the death star.  

I haven't seen ROS yet, so I don't know if the source of Rey's gift with the force is explained.  If it's not, then obviously it makes things less clear with respect to her storyline.  But maybe it does.  And maybe we find out why she was able to fend of Kylo without much training (besides the fact that Kylo doesn't seem all that great with the lightsaber in TFA anyway).  

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Also much of it was written after the movies were released. True, but from 4 to 5 there's a 3-year gap. The same can't be said about 7 to 8, since one takes place directly after the other.

Is the three year gap between ANH and ESB ever made clear or is this something only relayed in the books?  

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44 minutes ago, downzy said:

Is the three year gap between ANH and ESB ever made clear or is this something only relayed in the books?  

Only relayed in books.

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1 hour ago, downzy said:

Is the three year gap between ANH and ESB ever made clear or is this something only relayed in the books?  

On the movie? Not that I remember. On books? Yes and no. In the novelization that came BEFORE episode was written "several months" that's what was advertised.

Anyways, this is not really important, because it is also never stated that it happened right after 4, unlike 7 to 8, which makes it impossible for something happening in between them.

It's the same thing with the Knights of Ren. They were advertised as the big baddies since 7 and we only get to see them in 9. At least they had the decency of making a comic book about them too, something that could've replaced the casino arc in 8 easily.

Edited by Chewbacca

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As far as Rey being a Palpatine - that was essentially the idea I had going into this, that she "belonged" to him.

But as far as her being a direct blood relative - that I wasn't expecting. I thought she would wind up being a clone herself - of someone who was very powerful, possibly a Sith. I think that would have been more appropriate with idea of her parents being "nobodies," in spite of her amazing ability.

I thought, that scene in The Last Jedi where she goes into the cave and asks the Dark Side to reveal her parents, and it turns out to be a representation of herself, would have been a nice way of the force literally telling her her origin - and she just misunderstood the meaning of that moment when she reflected later with Kylo...

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I've been processing my thoughts on the film for the last 24 hours. I'll give a more detailed, spoiler-y breakdown in the spoiler thread, but I wanted to poke my head into both threads. Also I said to @RussTCB elsewhere that we'd take the debate to the forum, so let's duke it out ;) 

 

I think, looking at this film on it's own, I enjoyed it. However in the context of the trilogy (And I use that term loosely), I think it's awkward. Now in hindsight, I think I'd say that about all three entries in the trilogy - they don't really work together but they all work on their own. They all feel a lot more episodic (i.e. pre-Craig James Bond or Indiana Jones) than they do to have a real true over-arching storyline. Yes, they feature all the same characters and develop the characters across the films, but they all seem to try and stand on their own and do an extraordinarily good job of ignoring what came before. Very little of what Abrams set up in The Force Awakens comes back into play in The Last Jedi, and very little of what Johnson set up in The Last Jedi comes back into play in The Rise Of Skywalker, which also still ignores a lot of what was set up in TFA. There were some big pacing issues with this one also - too much stuff crammed into too little time. I didn't have much of an issue with any of the plot lines as they were written, just that some of them weren't fleshed out well enough because there wasn't enough time. There were also some glaring plot holes, but that's not exactly new to Star Wars, is it?

 

Where this film really shines though is the emotional aspect. There's some nice, touching moments for nearly every major character in the film, and I would say all of the cast left from the OT at this point in the story got a fitting sendoff. Having not read any of the spoilers, there were some genuine surprises for me, though there was one major plot point I'd suspected would flesh out for some time now went exactly how I'd expected it to. Now going back and reading the spoilers, I'm surprised just how much of it was accurate - I felt like a lot of the "leaks" for TFA and TLJ were more bullshit than this time around. I found the dialogue (And especially the humor) in this one to be more appropriate and less awkward, and the fan service worked a lot better. While there was a lot of it this time around, a necessary evil to concluding a 9 film saga I suppose, a lot of it actually fit into the story and advanced things forward - no "Member Han's dice?!?" type callbacks. The acting was great in this one as well - Adam Driver gets the MVP for me (And Kylo Ren easily became my favorite new character), but Daisy Ridley was great as well. Good to see Billy Dee Williams, the suavest motherfucker in the galaxy back and looking as fresh as ever even at his age. 

 

One last thing, going off of the comment Russ made about how it seems TFA fans will love it, and TLJ fans will hate it. I am definitely more of a TLJ fan than TFA, and while I think this film has some glaring issues, I think it's a worthy entry into the Star Wars universe, and a fitting conclusion to the saga. 

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I honestly do not agree that it is ''rose tinted glasses'' or ''nostalgia'' that is effecting our judgement on the original trilogy. It is simply that the original trilogy is vastly superior, superior in every aspect, plotting, characters-actors, special effects, originality.

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3 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

I think I am unique in that I hated The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi about equally. 

Nah I know a lot of people who hate them both. Then again, it could just be the particular circle of friends that I have. Idk.

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