STAR WARS: Convoluted Cash- Cow Disney Adventure Series That Will Never End Thread

[downzy]

Not to start a TLJ debate in a ROS thread (though, I guess that's what I'm doing), but I came across this today and thought it was interesting:

Here's Rhian's response:

[BadApples87]

My Star Wars scorecard:

Phantom Menace 5/10

Attack of the Clones 6/10

Revenge of the Sith 8/10

Solo 7/10

Rogue One 8/10

New Hope 10/10

Empire Strikes Back 10/10

Return of the Jedi 9/10

Force Awakens 8/10

Last Jedi 6/10

Rise of Skywalker 7/10

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

47 minutes ago, downzy said:

Not to start a TLJ debate in a ROS thread (though, I guess that's what I'm doing), but I came across this today and thought it was interesting:

Here's Rhian's response:

Also Rian Johnson: treat Rey as a mary sue video game character who has a permanent power-up!

[downzy]

1 minute ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Also Rian Johnson: treat Rey as a mary sue video game character who has a permanent power-up!

Ughh... this again.  

If Rey was such a "Mary Sue," why did she need saving from Kylo in her showdown with Snoke?  

I honestly don't understand how people complain about this but give James Bond, Luke Skywalker, Aragorn...

It's insane that men give female characters such a hard time for being inexplicably gifted but don't seem to have a problem with male characters.

[RussTCB]

15 minutes ago, downzy said:

Ughh... this again.  

If Rey was such a "Mary Sue," why did she need saving from Kylo in her showdown with Snoke?  

I honestly don't understand how people complain about this but give James Bond, Luke Skywalker, Aragorn...

It's insane that men give female characters such a hard time for being inexplicably gifted but don't seem to have a problem with male characters.

And therein lies the #1 complaint I've seen about this trilogy as a whole. I can't believe people think that "but.... but.... but.... SHE'S A GIRL!" is a solid base for an argument. 

[downzy]

2 minutes ago, RussTCB said:

And therein lies the #1 complaint I've seen about this trilogy as a whole. I can't believe people think that "but.... but.... but.... SHE'S A GIRL!" is a solid base for an argument. 

If Rey was a male character, no one would have batted an eye about being able to pick up the force so quickly.  

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

30 minutes ago, downzy said:

Ughh... this again.  

If Rey was such a "Mary Sue," why did she need saving from Kylo in her showdown with Snoke?  

I honestly don't understand how people complain about this but give James Bond, Luke Skywalker, Aragorn...

It's insane that men give female characters such a hard time for being inexplicably gifted but don't seem to have a problem with male characters.

Luke trained with Yoda and still got wrecked by Vader in his first fight and lost his hand. Where was Rey's training? 

13 minutes ago, downzy said:

If Rey was a male character, no one would have batted an eye about being able to pick up the force so quickly.  

The funny thing there is no male character that just picked up the force and started wrecking sith lords right away. Only Mary Rey Sue got that honor.

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

Excellent post on reddit backing me up, with facts and logic

Quote

I think the problem everyone has is that in the original trilogy, we are given reasons why the characters are good at what they do. For Han, well he was a smuggler, he had to be good at flying for his job, and for Luke, in the canon book that came alongside Star Wars (a new hope) it explains how he raced small ships on Tatooine. Rey has absolutely no reason for being an expert on flying a starship, after all, she was stuck on a desert planet for 15ish years. Being able to repair one is slightly more probable as she was a scrapper who knew the intricacies of Starships. Even her skills with a lightsaber are subject to this. In the end of TFA Rey is able to defeat Kylo Ren in a duel, after never holding a weapon of the sort before. Think about that, a rookie by all definition was able to defeat a highly trained ex-jedi who was able to destroy a Jedi temple. And even though it was made clear in canon that you never needed to be a jedi to wield a lightsaber, it still stated that you do need extensive training with the weapon to properly use one. There is no given explanation for why Rey can do all this. Even Luke had troubles the first time he used a lightsaber. In Star Wars (a new hope) we see him getting shot by the training drone when he try’s to practice with the lightsaber. And even when he uses it in Empire, he’s not the most skilled, and still falls victim to Vader. I want to like Rey’s character, but I find myself drifting towards Ben Solo more and more, as he is more relatable. Rey is a character that had the possibility to be important and powerful both in force capability and how people saw the character. However, she has unfortunately fallen victim to lazy writing and her ability’s being tossed away with “she just can” and than never revisiting it, Turning her into what people have taken to calling a Mary Sue. Someone who can do whatever the plot needs her to do without explanation.

 

[downzy]

27 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Luke trained with Yoda and still got wrecked by Vader in his first fight and lost his hand. Where was Rey's training? 

The funny thing there is no male character that just picked up the force and started wrecking sith lords right away. Only Mary Rey Sue got that honor.

Kylo Ren is Sith Lord in the Force Awakens?   

I must have missed that part of the film.  I do recall Smoke saying that Kylo needed to return to complete his training.

Nor was Ben Solo ever a Jedi.  He was training to be one.

Also your passage above excuses Rey's use of a staff as a weapon at the beginning TFA.

Also, I don't recall seeing Luke training with the lightsaber in Empire Strikes Back.  There's a 30 second scene in A New Hope.

I suppose all Luke needed was Ghost Obi One whispering in his ear "use the force" to mind control his lightsaber while stuck in the ice at the beginning of ESB.  How does Luke know this is a Jedi power?  He hadn't met Yoda yet.

You're just making excuses.  

It's a movie.  We give passes to characters all the time for doing things where no explanation is given as to how or why they can do it.  A female character does it and it's an example of bad writing and SJWism. And it's a complaint always made by men.  

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

9 minutes ago, downzy said:

Kylo Ren is Sith Lord in the Force Awakens?   

I must have missed that part of the film.  I do recall Smoke saying that Kylo needed to return to complete his training.

Nor was Ben Solo ever a Jedi.  He was training to be one.

Also your passage above excuses Rey's use of a staff as a weapon at the beginning TFA.

Also, I don't recall seeing Luke training with the lightsaber in Empire Strikes Back.  There's a 30 second scene in A New Hope.

I suppose all Luke needed was Ghost Obi One whispering in his ear "use the force" to mind control his lightsaber while stuck in the ice at the beginning of ESB.  How does Luke know this is a Jedi power?  He hadn't met Yoda yet.

You're just making excuses.  

It's a movie.  We give passes to characters all the time for doing things where no explanation is given as to how or why they can do it.  A female character does it and it's an example of bad writing and SJWism. And it's a complaint always made by men.  

OH sorry, a guy who was training for YEARS to be a Jedi and well trained in lightsaber combat, vs a girl with NO training an in the force or lightsaber combat (but she beats common criminals up with a staff!). That's terrible writing to have the untrained staff fighter defeat the guy trained as a Jedi (who is supposed to be one of the main villains) in the first flippin movie no less! Why, as a viewer do I need to see the rest of the trilogy when one of the main villains has already been bested, by an untrained girl who is only going to get stronger?

It is implied that Luke had been training in between the time of ANH and ESB. Then he meets Yoda for further training. Also notice that Luke fails to use the force on any large objects and needs Yoda's help to move the ship. We as an audience get to see him struggle and progress. Then he loses the fight with Vader and loses a hand, as he properly should.

You're the one making excuses for bad writing.

[downzy]

12 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

OH sorry, a guy who was training for YEARS to be a Jedi and well trained in lightsaber combat, vs a girl with NO training an in the force or lightsaber combat (but she beats common criminals up with a staff!). That's terrible writing to have the untrained staff fighter defeat the guy trained as a Jedi (who is supposed to be one of the main villains) in the first flippin movie no less! Why, as a viewer do I need to see the rest of the trilogy when one of the main villains has already been bested, by an untrained girl who is only going to get stronger?

Or it could be we just don't know much about Rey to understand why she's so strong with the Force.

It's also pretty obvious Kylo is pretty clumsy with his lightsaber.  

Hell, Finn, a former storm trooper who mostly worked in janitorial, get the better of Ren at one point.  So how good can Ren be really with the lightsaber at the end of the Force Awakens?

To me that scene was simply just amateur night among "kids" who were trying to figure things out.  Sure, not the greatest end to the first movie when compared to the master lightsaber battles of the previous films, but sort of as a stage setter for what's to come.  Abrams had set the film up with a lot of mystery as to who Rey is and why she's so powerful.  It's really Johnson who fucked things up by not really give us any real reason to explain Rey's strength with the Force (other than Luke saying he had never felt such power before).

12 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

It is implied that Luke had been training in between the time of ANH and ESB

Really?  Where is it implied?  And how would he know he could move objects with his mind?  Who is training him?  How is he practicing with his lightsaber?  Who else has one that he can train with?

12 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Then he meets Yoda for further training

None of which involves a lightsaber.  And yet he can go toe to toe with Dark Vader for a good while before getting his hand chopped off.  How did he even last that long with such little training?

12 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

You're the one making excuses for bad writing.

Star Wars is filled with bad writing.  If it weren't for the special effects, costumes, space battles, and lightsabers, these movies would not be held in as high esteem as they are.  Laser swords and dog fights in space paper over a lot of bad dialogue, terrible acting, and plot holes big enough to fly the Millennium Falcon through.  

But your issue is that a girl can do things you don't think she can do despite there's so many other characters that have been given the same treatment.  

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

7 minutes ago, downzy said:

Or it could be we just don't know much about Rey to understand why she's so strong with the Force.

It's also pretty obvious Kylo is pretty clumsy with his lightsaber.  

Hell, Finn, a former storm trooper who mostly worked in janitorial, get the better of Ren at one point.  So how good can Ren be really with the lightsaber at the end of the Force Awakens?

 

But he is a storm trooper nonetheless who would have gone through some type of training in weapons. After a lucky blow Kylo gets serious and then easily dispatches him. Based on this, Kylo should have no more difficulty with Rey, who we can assume has less training than even Finn.

Quote

Really?  Where is it implied?  And how would he know he could move objects with his mind?  Who is training him?  How is he practicing with his lightsaber?  Who else has one that he can train with?

Well a few years have passed haven't they. Are we to assume he's done nothing to try and improve his skills now that the knows something about the Jedi and their ways. Wouldn't he have at least kept using that training drone that Kenobi showed him? Maybe he had more training drones like that to use or texts he could study from. While yes these are leaps in logic, they aren't impossible leaps in logic. Let's remember, all he does is move a lightsaber, not like he moved a mountain 

And yes, I would have added at least one scene with Yoda showing Luke some lightsaber dueling moves. We can assume they didn't show us everything Yoda taught him, but yes this would be a minor plothole compared to the mysterious fighting skills of Rey.

[downzy]

8 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

But he is a storm trooper nonetheless who would have gone through some type of training in weapons. After a lucky blow Kylo gets serious and then easily dispatches him. Based on this, Kylo should have no more difficulty with Rey, who we can assume has less training than even Finn.

I don't mean to offend, but this is one of the dumbest discussions I think I've ever wasted my time on.

Look, you obviously are taking issue with a narrative shortcoming that allows you to use a rather sexist term like Mary Sue in way that would easily apply to many other Star Wars and non-Star Wars characters.  You have to reach and make sense of a janitor successfully using a lightsaber to against a trained person strong with the force to disparage the equally nonsensical idea of an abandoned girl summing some secrete ghost force/power to beat a better trained rival.  Okay.  Whatever makes you feel better about the world I guess.

8 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Well a few years have passed haven't they. Are we to assume he's done nothing to try and improve his skills now that the knows something about the Jedi and their ways

What does Luke know though?  Where is he getting his information?  Is Obi One whispering in his ear the whole time?  Again, you're giving a pass to a male character while taking issue with a female character for the same bullshit.  It's all bullshit.  But let's dump on the female character because with female characters I need everything to make perfect sense, otherwise it's just liberal Hollywood ramming their progressive agenda down my throat.  Right?

It's a movie about space cowboys and lightsabers.  

[ZoSoRose]

Saw it last night. Overall, I liked the movie and don't think it warrants a 50-whatever%. I did have issues with it, but overall, it did nothing to diminish the Star Wars story for me. On a scale of Game of Thrones to Endgame, this was in the middle leaning towards Endgame.

I can't believe the Sequel Trilogy is over. I was so hyped when it was announced, probably the most excited I have ever been or ever will be for a form of media. Like millions of others, Star Wars was a massive part of my childhood. I spent so many hours pretending to be guys like Luke and Han and playing with the toys and watching, playing, and reading so many SW stories. I met one of my oldest and closest friends because of Star Wars in 1998. Getting 7-9 was a childhood fulfillment and its been a lot of fun speculating and being excited for these movies over the past 7 years. Yes, I admit that adds a layer of rose tint to the films, but I am okay with that because Star Wars, more than any other series, is a series that relies on nostalgia. If you didn't grow up with it, its many flaws are easier to spot.

So onto the movie, here is my overlong review no one wants. There were things I likes and thinks I didn't. I'll start with the negatives. Like TFA, the pacing was extremely fast. I would have liked even 15-20 minutes tacked on to the movie to allow key scenes to have some breathing room. A few minutes in the first third to let your brain catch up to all the exposition, another 2 minutes of showing all the ships in action and letting your brain recognize what its seeing, another 30 seconds after Kylo Ren died, etc. I feel like that extra time would have helped immensely. It didn't need to be 3 hours long, but 15 or so minutes spread around key scenes would have been nice.

The general story was also very safe. I totally agree with reviews that are disappointed JJ played it so safe. We knew it was going to happen, especially after TLJ tried to mix it up and was put down by most fans. The Force Awakens was very safe, but it had story elements that kept you guessing. It also kept you intrigued by what happened since 6. This was basically a greatest hits film with a few big reveals that were semi predictable. A lot of fans wanted that, and it kept me engaged, I just wish it got weirder with the actual main story. The actual fake outs were too much, too- CHEWIE IS DEAD, no he isn't... 3POs MEMORY IS GONE, no it isnt. The retconing itself wasn't too bad. I felt like the movie did a great job wrapping up all the questions neatly. Rey's origin tied in nicely to the vision she saw in 7, and I liked how we got an explanation for Snoke. Yeah, they kind of "Spectre'ed" it, but it wasnt nearly as sloppy. I can see The Emperor pulling the strings somehow. Its rare for a finale to wrap up pretty much every loose end, so I give credit for that.

This was FANSERVICE: THE MOVIE I actually wanted more. I think the story could have been more original while keeping in all the fanservice. The fanservice in the movie was great. I loved Luke lifting his old X Wing out. I thought that was an awesome, show-stealing scene to have for Luke. I was sad when I read he wasn't in the movie much, but I tempered my expectations and the scene he had was really good (even if he has been on the cheeseburgers in Force-Heaven). I loved seeing the Galaxy come together (although it could have used a few more minutes of screen time) with the 1000s of ships, and I loved the Death Star II ruins. I could not believe they brought Harrison Ford back. That was a really cool surprise and a great way to have him and Leia reach Ben. I also can't believe he still didn't share any screen time with Mark Hamill. Why not have both talk to Ben? Maybe that would have been dumb. I also was bummed Chewie and Kylo Ren didn't share a scene when they easily could have this time. Finally, the last big fanservice moment I was sad I didn't get was the final battle. The Jedi voice cameos was great, but man, seeing Luke, Anakin, etc as ghosts in person backing Rey and Ben up would have been awesome. Totally silly, but awesome imo. That is the one thing I wanted that I didn't get, but at least we got the voices. Would have given Palpatine a more believable challenge while also letting Ben have a little interaction with Luke and Anakin. Oh well, the voices were better than nothing.

With Leia, they did their best. That was a hell of a bad situation to be put in, and although it was jarring, I think it was the best they could do. I won't call it a negative, because it was implemented alright. Her dialog was clearly a cut and paste job, but I thought the way they had her pass on trying to reach Ben and then becoming one with the Force with him was a good sendoff. Definitely the best thing they could have come up with in this scenario. Chewie's reaction was really sad and well done.

For things I really liked, I thought the actors were all solid like usual. Having Rey, Finn, and Poe be together for most of the film was good to see. I thought they all had really good chemistry and I would have liked another scene or two of Finn and Rey. The hints at Finn being Force sensitive was really cool and pretty tasteful. I like how it is kind of implied without knocking your head over with it. Rey and Kylo Ren were awesome in this movie. Seeing Rey at her full capability was really cool, and I like how they made her more unsure of herself. I felt like that added to her character. She always had potential for me in 7, but was sidelined a bit in 8 by Luke and Kylo. This was definitely her movie, and I thought Daisy Ridley killed it.

Even with a little reduced role from 8, Adam Driver, once again, stole the show. It was cool seeing him as a fully confident villain for the first half of the movie. He was menacing as Supreme Leader from the little we saw. He also kicked Rey’s ass in the duel. She only beat him because of Leia. I liked all of that and thought the lightsaber duel was solid. Adam as redeemed Ben Solo was awesome. He didn’t even speak, but Adam is such a good actor, he carried it through his body language. The Knights of Ren were pathetic, but the fight with them and the saber pass was a great scene (wouldn’t have minded it being a bit longer). I dreaded hearing about the kiss, but it ended up being a nice moment. Its not like they ended up together, and I liked seeing Ben show happiness before passing on. A lot of fans are upset he died, I was too for a bit, but he was a real evil dude. What would he do? Chill with the Resistance? Go into exile? Travel the Galaxy alone? (I guess that would have been kind of okay). At least they gave him a purpose and a final display of great Force power. He literally brings somebody back from the dead. Hell yeah.

The Emperor was silly, but he is so great, you cant help but be happy he came back. Ian McDiarmid was just as excellent as he has ever been. Sheev was not as happily evil as his old self, and he was genuinely an evil rage-hate-corpse- dude this time. It was fun as hell to see. I didn’t think the movie totally took away from 6. Clearly, Luke and Vader fucked him up and brought 30 years of peace to the Galaxy. I was okay with the vague explanations back. Seems like he did die but is so powerful and did some weird Sith-Spirit- Alchemy stuff. That’s fine, who cares. Sith planet was neat, I enjoyed the creepy cult inhabitants.

The ending was fine. I didn’t once get the impression she went to live there like some people think. The last scene for me was more of a memorial/sendoff to Luke and Leia. Her taking the name wasn’t as bad as leaks suggested. I like the message that your family are the people that have influenced and cared for you, not just blood. That was all fine. The movie actually gave Luke, Han, and Leia decent closure. I wonder why they opted not to have Ben as a ghost there. I guess they just wanted to have it as a Luke and Leia sendoff.

Overall, there were things that were sweet and things that were lame. There were spaceships and lightsabers and cool characters. It was a Star Wars movie, and as an ending of the Sequel Trilogy I’d say it was fine. The ST feels sort of like an epilogue to 1-6. They didn’t write out a general outline and have a cohesive vision between directors. Its too bad and it shows. I enjoy the movies, its more Star Wars. I got to relieve my childhood a bit and see Luke, Han, and Leia one more time. That’s really all I wanted, and although I still can’t believe the three of them did not share a scene all together, its better than nothing. I think these three movies have been entertaining and still offered us some neat new additions to the sage. I am glad they exist and had fun following them. This was a trilogy of moments and characters for me. The overarching story wasn’t original. We end with the Emperor being defeated, one Jedi, and the bad guy being redeemed. Where have we seen that before? Despite that, I like a lot of the new characters, there have been some awesome portions of the films, I like a lot of things that happened, especially with Rey and Kylo Ren. A good Palpatine and a bad Skywalker is sort of neat, even if it could have been done better. I’d say The Last Jedi remains my favorite sequel because even though it is very flawed, I appreciate Rian Johnson tried to get weird with the franchise. The Rise of Skywalker is a safe, sloppy, but ultimately fun and satisfying movie that wraps it all up. 

TLDR- It was a Star Wars movie. Cool

Edited December 20, 2019 by ZoSoRose

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

29 minutes ago, downzy said:

I don't mean to offend, but this is one of the dumbest discussions I think I've ever wasted my time on.

Look, you obviously are taking issue with a narrative shortcoming that allows you to use a rather sexist term like Mary Sue in way that would easily apply to many other Star Wars and non-Star Wars characters.  You have to reach and make sense of a janitor successfully using a lightsaber to against a trained person strong with the force to disparage the equally nonsensical idea of an abandoned girl summing some secrete ghost force/power to beat a better trained rival.  Okay.  Whatever makes you feel better about the world I guess.

What does Luke know though?  Where is he getting his information?  Is Obi One whispering in his ear the whole time?  Again, you're giving a pass to a male character while taking issue with a female character for the same bullshit.  It's all bullshit.  But let's dump on the female character because with female characters I need everything to make perfect sense, otherwise it's just liberal Hollywood ramming their progressive agenda down my throat.  Right?

It's a movie about space cowboys and lightsabers.  

You're making a false equivalency though. Luke fails many times and only progressively gets better throughout the films as he gets trained up. How many times was he saved in movie one alone? He gets beat up and then saved by Kenobi in the desert, gets saved again by Kenobi at the bar, saved by the droids when about to be crushed with the garbage, and then saved by Han when Vader is about to blast him out of space. If anything they made Luke too bumbling in movie one! There is no gradual buildup for Rey. She dispatches her rival in movie one, with no training. I'm sorry but you are making excuses for an extremely crappy plot. The OT, while still being space cowboys and lightsabers, at least tried to take the viewer through a hero's journey with Luke and see him fail multiple times and get back up and keep trying. I don't get that same sense with Rey.

Does anyone dispute hollywood has a socially liberal worldview advanced in most plots? I mean that's quite like saying the sun will rise from the east tomorrow.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Basic_GnR_Fan

[downzy]

2 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

You're making a false equivalency though. Luke fails many times and only progressively gets better throughout the films as he gets trained up. How many times was he saved in movie one alone? He gets beat up and then saved by Kenobi in the desert, gets saved again by Kenobi at the bar, saved by the droids when about to be crushed with the garbage, and then saved by Han when Vader is about to blast him out of space. If anything they made Luke too bumbling in movie one! There is no gradual buildup for Rey. She dispatches her rival in movie one, with no training. I'm sorry but you are making excuses for an extremely crappy plot.

Does anyone dispute hollywood has a socially liberal worldview advanced in most plots? I mean that's quite like saying the sun will rise from the east tomorrow.

They're also completely different characters with completely different backgrounds.  Luke lived a fairly sheltered life, Rey had to be resourceful and fend for herself for 15 years.  You don't think that might play a factor in her resilience?  

Fine then, take your rage against hollywood and stop seeing the films if it bothers you so much.

What a waste of time these discussions are.

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

Just now, downzy said:

Fine then, take your rage against hollywood and stop seeing the films if it bothers you so much.

What a waste of time these discussions are.

I don't see very many of them, so advice taken!

This is a message board and I'm giving my take while not violating any rules. What fun would a hugbox be?

[fantomas]

I stopped reading at Mary Sue.  When a derogatory term is tossed around to describe a woman with skills, I lose interest in the argument. 

1 hour ago, downzy said:

They're also completely different characters with completely different backgrounds.  Luke lived a fairly sheltered life, Rey had to be resourceful and fend for herself for 15 years.  You don't think that might play a factor in her resilience?  

Fine then, take your rage against hollywood and stop seeing the films if it bothers you so much.

What a waste of time these discussions are.

 

[Amir]

Managed to avoid all trailers and spoilers, went in with low expectations, and generally had a good time, despite not caring much for the last two. Yeah, the plot is a mess, but the characters were more endearing to me in TROS than the last two entries.

Reading the leaked plot now that Dazey posted on the first page, it's interesting to see what changed from script to screen. The whole prologue got edited into a breakneck confusing mess, and Ben/Kylo got a kiss instead of disappearing into a chasm.

[DieselDaisy]

People are really lowering their expectations here because they want to like this film. It is utter garbage. 

[Amir]

9 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

People are really lowering their expectations here because they want to like this film. It is utter garbage. 

I didn't "want" to like the film, I had low expectations because I didn't care much for the last two and the Metacritic score was middling. In the end, I had fun in the cinema, liked the characters, maybe I'll see it again on a flight or something.

[PatrickS77]

23 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

People are really lowering their expectations here because they want to like this film. It is utter garbage. 

That. And really offered nothing. Except old heroes dying without having one scene together. To me the continuation of the saga will always be the now discarded EU. Fuck the new/remake trilogy. As a whole, it was a total fail.

Edited December 20, 2019 by PatrickS77

[DieselDaisy]

10 minutes ago, Amir said:

I didn't "want" to like the film, I had low expectations because I didn't care much for the last two and the Metacritic score was middling. In the end, I had fun in the cinema, liked the characters, maybe I'll see it again on a flight or something.

It is just that the positive reviews here - and I'm not just picking on you - are full of a multitude of caveats such as ''it had issues'', ''messy plotting'', but conclude with the assessment that a fun time was had. The barometer is being lowered. 

Remember when Star Wars films did not require caveats but were generally great films, i.e., the original trilogy?

[ZoSoRose]

5 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

It is just that the positive reviews here - and I'm not just picking on you - are full of a multitude of caveats such as ''it had issues'', ''messy plotting'', but conclude with the assessment that a fun time was had. The barometer is being lowered. 

Remember when Star Wars films did not require caveats but were generally great films, i.e., the original trilogy?

I dont agree necessarily with that. I adore the OT, but if those came out today there would be way more nitpicking with them. Especially ROTJ

[RussTCB]

6 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Remember when Star Wars films did not require caveats but were generally great films, i.e., the original trilogy?

I've always found A New Hope to be boring as hell, while I found Return of the Jedi to be one giant toy commercial. The only one of those episodes that's I truly enjoyed is Empire Strikes Back. 

I loved The Forces Awakens, hated The Last Jedi and loved Rise of Skywalker.