Chinese Democracy may become the most underrated album in history.

[Flayer]

This is garbage. You could say this about any fucking album ever made. it's pretentious bullshit. If a fan of a band you thought sucked started spewing this stuff you'd think they were full of shit. This is simply some psuedo intellectual way to defend the failure of CD and it's incredibly transparent.

All right, man. I think every song U2 ever wrote is a boring pile of shit. Therefore, it is. End of story. And I got no time to listen to any pretentious bullshit defense you might have to that statement. Great discussion we're having now.

See this is exactly the problem with blow-hards like you, you're not getting your way with your argument so you go childish and start lashing out at U2 to piss off Bono.

The fact of the matter is lots of people think that CD just ain't that good. You need to accept that.

Of those people, some will have listened to it deeply and really tried to like it (i.e. me) and others will have heard Chinese Democracy on the radio and left it at that.

There is nothing deeper than that, most people simply don't have the time or energy to go on like we do.

Have you fucking read anything I posted in this thread? Nowhere did I say the album is good or bad. Or that he or anyone else should like it. These are your assumptions. There's no fucking verdict to be had on wether it's good, bad, or mediocre. There is a verdict though on why it wasn't successful or widely liked, which is what my posts have been all about. Maybe I have to type this in BIG BOLD STUPID LETTERS so people won't keep missing the point: I AM NOT TRYING TO CONVINCE YOU CHINESE DEMOCRACY WAS GOOD. You are free hate it, love it, ignore it, think whatever the Hell you think about it. I don't care. I'm not trying to change your mind about it. I'm trying to explain why it disappointed or turned off so many of its listeners whether the music itself is good or not, which is a debatable point on which there is no objective answer.

I'm talking shit about U-2 now because this seems to be the level of debate Bono would rather have, since all of that is pseudointellectual nonsense to him.

[wasted]

It's just not the classic line up or hard rock.

That to me doesn't make it bad music.

I can see why people wouldn't like it as a GNR album though.

[Intercourse]

This is garbage. You could say this about any fucking album ever made. it's pretentious bullshit. If a fan of a band you thought sucked started spewing this stuff you'd think they were full of shit. This is simply some psuedo intellectual way to defend the failure of CD and it's incredibly transparent.

All right, man. I think every song U2 ever wrote is a boring pile of shit. Therefore, it is. End of story. And I got no time to listen to any pretentious bullshit defense you might have to that statement. Great discussion we're having now.

See this is exactly the problem with blow-hards like you, you're not getting your way with your argument so you go childish and start lashing out at U2 to piss off Bono.

The fact of the matter is lots of people think that CD just ain't that good. You need to accept that.

Of those people, some will have listened to it deeply and really tried to like it (i.e. me) and others will have heard Chinese Democracy on the radio and left it at that.

There is nothing deeper than that, most people simply don't have the time or energy to go on like we do.

Have you fucking read anything I posted in this thread?

To be honest no..guilty as charged

[Bono]

This is garbage. You could say this about any fucking album ever made. it's pretentious bullshit. If a fan of a band you thought sucked started spewing this stuff you'd think they were full of shit. This is simply some psuedo intellectual way to defend the failure of CD and it's incredibly transparent.

All right, man. I think every song U2 ever wrote is a boring pile of shit. Therefore, it is. End of story. And I got no time to listen to any pretentious bullshit defense you might have to that statement. Great discussion we're having now.

See this is exactly the problem with blow-hards like you, you're not getting your way with your argument so you go childish and start lashing out at U2 to piss off Bono.

The fact of the matter is lots of people think that CD just ain't that good. You need to accept that.

Of those people, some will have listened to it deeply and really tried to like it (i.e. me) and others will have heard Chinese Democracy on the radio and left it at that.

There is nothing deeper than that, most people simply don't have the time or energy to go on like we do.

Have you fucking read anything I posted in this thread? Nowhere did I say the album is good or bad. Or that he or anyone else should like it. These are your assumptions. There's no fucking verdict to be had on wether it's good, bad, or mediocre. There is a verdict though on why it wasn't successful or widely liked, which is what my posts have been all about. Maybe I have to type this in BIG BOLD STUPID LETTERS so people won't keep missing the point: I AM NOT TRYING TO CONVINCE YOU CHINESE DEMOCRACY WAS GOOD. You are free hate it, love it, ignore it, think whatever the Hell you think about it. I don't care. I'm not trying to change your mind about it. I'm trying to explain why it disappointed or turned off so many of its listeners whether the music itself is good or not, which is a debatable point on which there is no objective answer.

I'm talking shit about U-2 now because this seems to be the level of debate Bono would rather have, since all of that is pseudointellectual nonsense to him.

You seem to think that unless we share your incredibly insightful view on why CD failed than the argument that the album is shit is idiotic. Riiiight. Like Intercourse said a LOT of people didn't like the album even though they tried hard to like it, myself included and the reason....... wait for it...... THE MUSIC. For many the music wasn't good regardless whether you think it's not generic Nickleback type garbage or not. Music doesn't need to be a complex labour of love to be good. Some of you live in this world where even if we think the album sucks we some how need to praise it's genius anyways. There is nothing genius about CD in my opinion. Many others share that opinion. We don't have to sit here and say oh well the only real reason the album failed was because of who was in the band. Or more specifically who wasn't in the band. Or that even though it didn't meet my expectations I still have to admit it's great in it's own right. Why should I have to concede that? To validate yours and others feelings that it's good? No it sucks. That's how I feel. It's not idiotic. If you like it great but you saying that the opinion that it sucks is idiotic is like me saying your opinion that it's good is idiotic and then giving some pretentious argument why even if you like the album you have to admit it's pretty bad.

The problem with so many of you is that not once in 7 years have you been able to even remotely acknowledge that maybe, JUST MAYBE the album failed because the music isn't that good. Nope can't do that because you liked it so it can't possibly be an issue of subpar music now can it? It's always gotta be all these external issues that have nothing to do with the music. Bullshit!

you said flat out that if a person thinks the album is shit then that's an idiotic opinion because it's not shit. Oh ok thanks for clearing that up.

The irony in all this is you're using Chad Kroeger's argument that "No Nickelback doesn't suck. You may not like our music but we don't suck. we're actually very good at what we do"

[wasted]

I guess you just have to accept that the music on CD is good to some people and they may wonder why you don't like it.

I don't think you can categorically say any music is shit. Why some things are popular is one of life's mysteries. Anyone saying anything is shit is wrong. You just don't like it... yet.

[Rovim]

I guess you just have to accept that the music on CD is good to some people and they may wonder why you don't like it.

I don't think you can categorically say any music is shit. Why some things are popular is one of life's mysteries. Anyone saying anything is shit is wrong. You just don't like it... yet.

Yes, and Bono loving the new U2 album is the perfect example of why I think it's shit but that's alright cause it's not shit to Bono.

I don't visit U2 forums, but if I did (and I don't) I would not continue to badger people who liked the new U2 album with my opinion that it's shit but that's me and I'm nothing like Bono so we're doomed.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Rovim

[Free Bird]

I guess you just have to accept that the music on CD is good to some people and they may wonder why you don't like it.

I don't think you can categorically say any music is shit. Why some things are popular is one of life's mysteries. Anyone saying anything is shit is wrong. You just don't like it... yet.

But that's exactly what he's saying. It sucks in his opinion. You have all the right to like it. Nothing more, nothing less. Edited April 9, 2015 by Free Bird

[wasted]

I guess you just have to accept that the music on CD is good to some people and they may wonder why you don't like it.

I don't think you can categorically say any music is shit. Why some things are popular is one of life's mysteries. Anyone saying anything is shit is wrong. You just don't like it... yet.

But that's exactly what he's saying. It sucks in his opinion. You have all the right like it. Nothing more, nothing less.

I thought he was saying the music was shit, that's why people don't like it.

If you say I don't like it, not my thing, that's easy to understand. But saying it's shit has no meaning.

[Intercourse]

I guess you just have to accept that the music on CD is good to some people and they may wonder why you don't like it.

I don't think you can categorically say any music is shit. Why some things are popular is one of life's mysteries. Anyone saying anything is shit is wrong. You just don't like it... yet.

But that's exactly what he's saying. It sucks in his opinion. You have all the right like it. Nothing more, nothing less.

I see people on here desperately trying to change people's opinion on songs/albums etc. - its a total waste of time. Taste is a personal journey. Some people like to be pissed on by their partners - fucked if I know why but the internet is full of them.

[wasted]

I see the opposite.

People say they like something, then others say it's shit and stop trying to convince me it's good.

Now I'm just the Columbo of shitposting.

[Rovim]

I guess you just have to accept that the music on CD is good to some people and they may wonder why you don't like it.

I don't think you can categorically say any music is shit. Why some things are popular is one of life's mysteries. Anyone saying anything is shit is wrong. You just don't like it... yet.

But that's exactly what he's saying. It sucks in his opinion. You have all the right like it. Nothing more, nothing less.

I see people on here desperately trying to change people's opinion on songs/albums etc. - its a total waste of time. Taste is a personal journey. Some people like to be pissed on by their partners - fucked if I know why but the internet is full of them.

No one is trying to change shit. Where are these people you're talking about, trying to change opinions? (the nerve)

If you like Chinese, fuck you it sux lol.

[wasted]

I liked Guns and then everything in the 90s from Ministry to Black Box Recorder. Then Axl invents GNR meets the Fockers and I likes it.

[Rovim]

I liked Guns and then everything in the 90s from Ministry to Black Box Recorder. Then Axl invents GNR meets the Fockers and I likes it.

Axl is the Nikola Tesla of rock n' roll.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Rovim

[magisme]

Not sure I've ever heard the "people are afraid to admit they like it" excuse.

There's definitely an element of that.

If you think Axl stole the band or is disrespectful, violent, racist, wife beater then you are probably less open to the idea of CD being great.

I'm not talking about the forum dwellers who have a more balanced outlook but the general public is probably Axl is the bad guy, he stole the band and CD sucks.

No. The general public doesn't care enough about GNR to be upset with Axl about the breakup in 2008. That's ridiculous. If people liked the album, they would have said so.

I need to stop having these absurd discussions.

[LTD]

It is a decent album that tries very hard.

As long as people rate it as a decent album that tries very hard, it is approx. appropriately rated. It also was the most hyped and spoken about fucking album ever released. To call it " underrated" is ridiculous.

TRY-Hard rock epic makes bit awkward thing to listen.

Big self-important rock epics make a bad place to narrowly miss the goal. Like, make a try-hard simple rock song..and it sounds like a simple rock song. Make a try hard big important epic..and it turns out an awkward sitcom about rock opera.

[Rovim]

It is a decent album that tries very hard.

As long as people rate it as a decent album that tries very hard, it is approx. appropriately rated. It also was the most hyped and spoken about fucking album ever released. To call it " underrated" is ridiculous.

TRY-Hard rock epic makes bit awkward thing to listen.

Big self-important rock epics make a bad place to narrowly miss the goal. Like, make a try-hard simple rock song..and it sounds like a simple rock song. Make a try hard big important epic..and it turns out an awkward sitcom about rock opera.

Awkward sitcom rock opera. Kinda like Queen and Elton John. Axl wants to do big important epics. That's the type of music he's interested in creating now. Is he supposed to make music that is boring to him? maybe he was a part of enough simple rock songs that he wants to try something a little different.

[LTD]

It is a decent album that tries very hard.

As long as people rate it as a decent album that tries very hard, it is approx. appropriately rated. It also was the most hyped and spoken about fucking album ever released. To call it " underrated" is ridiculous.

TRY-Hard rock epic makes bit awkward thing to listen.

Big self-important rock epics make a bad place to narrowly miss the goal. Like, make a try-hard simple rock song..and it sounds like a simple rock song. Make a try hard big important epic..and it turns out an awkward sitcom about rock opera.

Awkward sitcom rock opera. Kinda like Queen and Elton John

No, their best works are rock operas without pre-fixes. Wanting to do big important epics doesn't result in you doing big important epics. It is a harsh field to miss your mark in, as I said.

I don't think Axl Rose has been that interested in making any kind of songs at all in few decades actually.

Edited April 9, 2015 by LTD

[wasted]

Not sure I've ever heard the "people are afraid to admit they like it" excuse.

There's definitely an element of that.

If you think Axl stole the band or is disrespectful, violent, racist, wife beater then you are probably less open to the idea of CD being great.

I'm not talking about the forum dwellers who have a more balanced outlook but the general public is probably Axl is the bad guy, he stole the band and CD sucks.

No. The general public doesn't care enough about GNR to be upset with Axl about the breakup in 2008. That's ridiculous. If people liked the album, they would have said so.

I need to stop having these absurd discussions.

Maybe. Newsnight said "it's his masterpiece" and they seem to have no idea. They were just talking about dancing with margaritas at college and now Axl has reinvented himself. How can you be Axl Rose in 2008? Pot edibles are so hot right now.

[Estranged Coma]

Not sure I've ever heard the "people are afraid to admit they like it" excuse.

There's definitely an element of that.

If you think Axl stole the band or is disrespectful, violent, racist, wife beater then you are probably less open to the idea of CD being great.

I'm not talking about the forum dwellers who have a more balanced outlook but the general public is probably Axl is the bad guy, he stole the band and CD sucks.

No. The general public doesn't care enough about GNR to be upset with Axl about the breakup in 2008. That's ridiculous. If people liked the album, they would have said so.

I need to stop having these absurd discussions.

Maybe. Newsnight said "it's his masterpiece" and they seem to have no idea. They were just talking about dancing with margaritas at college and now Axl has reinvented himself. How can you be Axl Rose in 2008? Pot edibles are so hot right now.

I think there was still an element of this in 08. It was still cool to talk about the gnr breakup. I remember where I'm from my shitty rock radio would play Chinese (the song) and be like "check out what Axl rose broke up the band for" pretty much shitting on it then proceeding to play it.

[Rovim]

It is a decent album that tries very hard.

As long as people rate it as a decent album that tries very hard, it is approx. appropriately rated. It also was the most hyped and spoken about fucking album ever released. To call it " underrated" is ridiculous.

TRY-Hard rock epic makes bit awkward thing to listen.

Big self-important rock epics make a bad place to narrowly miss the goal. Like, make a try-hard simple rock song..and it sounds like a simple rock song. Make a try hard big important epic..and it turns out an awkward sitcom about rock opera.

Awkward sitcom rock opera. Kinda like Queen and Elton John

No, their best works are rock operas without pre-fixes. Wanting to do big important epics doesn't result in you doing big important epics. It is a harsh field to miss your mark in, as I said.

I don't think Axl Rose has been that interested in making any kind of songs at all in few decades actually.

But you're missing the point which is: if that's the kind of music he wants to make, and in his opinion the result is good enough, then what's the problem? you don't like it? but he likes it. Is he doing something wrong or is he just doing what is artistically cool for him?

Edited April 9, 2015 by Rovim

[Apollo]

Overrated and underrated are very misused terms in regards to music.

People mistaken those words for what they PERSONAL like or don't like.

Just because you or I love an album that nobody else does doesn't mean the album is underrated. Conversely, if you hate an album that everybody else loves - doesn't mean its overrated. Just means that you personally like or dislike it at a different rate than the majority of other rock fans.

Albums are what they are. Bands are what they are. Neither of them are underrated or overrated.

CD is an album that took too long to be released, had too much time and money spent on making it, and was tinkered with too death. But because of the strength (and legend) of Axl Rose, and the brand name of Guns n Roses, it still managed to sell 3 million copies and produce a couple minor hits on the rock chart. It's a pretty good album that features a couple really great songs, but it isn't a strong enough album to bear the weight of 13 years, 15 million dollars and the album that was supposed to be Axl's masterpiece. If Axl had released five albums since breaking up the classic line-up, CD wouldn't receive as much hate. But it isn't strong enough to be the ONLY album in that 15 year period.

I personally love CD. I listen to it more than I listen to either Illusions. I think it is just as strong as either Illusion (as a single album). But I understand why so many of you think it sucks.

CD isn't overrated or underrated. It is what it is.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Apollo

[Free Bird]

Overrated and underrated are very misused terms in regards to music.

People mistaken those words for what they PERSONAL like or don't like.

Just because you or I love an album that nobody else does doesn't mean the album is underrated. Conversely, if you hate an album that everybody else loves - doesn't mean its overrated. Just means that you personally like or dislike it at a different rate than the majority of other rock fans.

Albums are what they are. Bands are what they are. Neither of them are underrated or overrated.

CD is an album that took too long to be released, had too much time and money spent on making it, and was tinkered with too death. But because of the strength (and legend) of Axl Rose, and the brand name of Guns n Roses, it still managed to sell 3 million copies and produce a couple minor hits on the rock chart. It's a pretty good album that features a couple really great songs, but it isn't a strong enough album to bear the weight of 13 years, 15 million dollars and the album that was supposed to be Axl's masterpiece. If Axl had released five albums since breaking up the classic line-up, CD wouldn't receive as much hate. But it isn't strong enough to be the ONLY album in that 15 year period.

I personally love CD. I listen to it more than I listen to either Illusions. I think it is just as strong as either Illusion (as a single album). But I understand why so many of you think it sucks.

CD isn't overrated or underrated. It is what it is.

Great post Apollo, as always.

[Apollo]

Overrated and underrated are very misused terms in regards to music.

People mistaken those words for what they PERSONAL like or don't like.

Just because you or I love an album that nobody else does doesn't mean the album is underrated. Conversely, if you hate an album that everybody else loves - doesn't mean its overrated. Just means that you personally like or dislike it at a different rate than the majority of other rock fans.

Albums are what they are. Bands are what they are. Neither of them are underrated or overrated.

CD is an album that took too long to be released, had too much time and money spent on making it, and was tinkered with too death. But because of the strength (and legend) of Axl Rose, and the brand name of Guns n Roses, it still managed to sell 3 million copies and produce a couple minor hits on the rock chart. It's a pretty good album that features a couple really great songs, but it isn't a strong enough album to bear the weight of 13 years, 15 million dollars and the album that was supposed to be Axl's masterpiece. If Axl had released five albums since breaking up the classic line-up, CD wouldn't receive as much hate. But it isn't strong enough to be the ONLY album in that 15 year period.

I personally love CD. I listen to it more than I listen to either Illusions. I think it is just as strong as either Illusion (as a single album). But I understand why so many of you think it sucks.

CD isn't overrated or underrated. It is what it is.

Great post Apollo, as always.

Thanks man!

It's nice to have real conversations with people on here that don't involve Slash and Axl's current weight.

[Nosaj Thing]

If you think Axl stole the band or is disrespectful, violent, racist, wife beater then you are probably less open to the idea of CD being great.

No.

There are people who would simply say that Chinese Democracy is shit because they know Slash isn't in it, but that's a minority. Others simply didn't like the album. I'm not sure why it is so hard to understand.

I firmly believe that if someone heard the album and they genuinely thought it was utter shit, they have the right to think that and not be questioned about it. I mean, same goes for those who loved it. There's no "you're afraid of admitting you liked CD" or "you didn't like CD because you thought Axl fucked Slash and Duff over" excuse -- that's nonsense.

Exactly. Axl didn't change just the line up. That album is 10 years too late, has a different sound, and while there are elements of GNR it has another style, a totally different feeling to the old stuff. Some people may like it, others not.

I went to buy that album the first day of its release. I show up, before they opened the doors and I was very well aware there isn't Slash on it, or Izzy, or Duff.

Got nothing to do with it.

For you. Some others maybe it was a factor. I think people wrote it off because its not the classic line up. That is a factor, and it's under standable for general public to think this.

I think that way myself, you need the og line up for most part. I just think CD is great, if kind of crazy album.

Again, that people you're so eagerly talking about are a minority. There are people who refused and still refuse to listen to the album because Slash isn't on it, or because it's not the classic line-up. But, does that affect the general consensus? Nope, it doesn't. Just because a group of people think Chinese Democracy is absolute shit, doesn't make the album shit for the rest of the world, and just because another group of people think it's a masterpiece, doesn't make the album the greatest album ever made to everyone. Delusional and naive fans of Axl Rose will not accept this.

According to the rest of the world, Chinese Democracy is a decent album, not good or bad, definitely not a pile of shit or a masterpiece, but that's still based on subjective opinions and reviews. If you liked the album and you enjoy it when you're playing it, that should be enough to you. But, fanboyism and worshiping will not let some hardcore CD fans out there, accept that others might have a different opinion.

I guess you just have to accept that the music on CD is good to some people and they may wonder why you don't like it.

I don't think you can categorically say any music is shit. Why some things are popular is one of life's mysteries. Anyone saying anything is shit is wrong. You just don't like it... yet.

But that's exactly what he's saying. It sucks in his opinion. You have all the right like it. Nothing more, nothing less.

I see people on here desperately trying to change people's opinion on songs/albums etc. - its a total waste of time. Taste is a personal journey. Some people like to be pissed on by their partners - fucked if I know why but the internet is full of them.

Agreed.

I see the opposite.

People say they like something, then others say it's shit and stop trying to convince me it's good.

Now I'm just the Columbo of shitposting.

I see the opposite too. People say they think the album is shit and they're treated like ignorants deaf persons who will not "get" CD because they're dumb and like Nobody puts baby in a corner. That, and the classic overused "if you didn't like CD, then why are you here?" -- that's definitely my favorite one.

It goes both ways.

[maynard]

Axl wants to do big important epics. That's the type of music he's interested in creating now.

I like how you talk, it's like you know Axl personally. Hahaha

CD contains very few epic songs, you're completely wrong.