What Is Harassment?

[alfierose]

This article on the subject from a single NYC woman highlights quite well what some of us have been trying to say. I appreciate it's a little patronising in places but it explains some of the thought processes well.

Guest Blogger Starling: Schrödingers Rapist: or a guys guide to approaching strange women without being maced

Posted by Sweet Machine

Phaedra Starling is the pen name of a romance novelist and licensed private investigator living in small New York City apartment with two large dogs. She practices Brazilian jiu-jitsu and makes world-class apricot muffins.

Gentlemen. Thank you for reading.

Let me start out by assuring you that I understand you are a good sort of person. You are kind to children and animals. You respect the elderly. You donate to charity. You tell jokes without laughing at your own punchlines. You respect women. You like women. In fact, you would really like to have a mutually respectful and loving sexual relationship with a woman. Unfortunately, you dont yet know that womanshe isnt working with you, nor have you been introduced through mutual friends or drawn to the same activities. So you must look further afield to encounter her.

So far, so good. Miss LonelyHearts, your humble instructor, approves. Human connection, love, romance: there is nothing wrong with these yearnings.

Now, you want to become acquainted with a woman you see in public. The first thing you need to understand is that women are dealing with a set of challenges and concerns that are strange to you, a man. To begin with, we would rather not be killed or otherwise violently assaulted.

But wait! I dont want that, either!

Well, no. But do you think about it all the time? Is preventing violent assault or murder part of your daily routine, rather than merely something you do when you venture into war zones? Because, for women, it is. When I go on a date, I always leave the mans full name and contact information written next to my computer monitor. This is so the cops can find my body if I go missing. My best friend will call or e-mail me the next morning, and I must answer that call or e-mail before noon-ish, or she begins to worry. If she doesnt hear from me by three or so, shell call the police. My activities after dark are curtailed. Unless I am in a densely-occupied, well-lit space, I wont go out alone. Even then, I prefer to have a friend or two, or my dogs, with me. Do you follow rules like these?

So when you, a stranger, approach me, I have to ask myself: Will this man rape me?

Do you think Im overreacting? One in every six American women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime. I bet you dont think you know any rapists, but consider the sheer number of rapes that must occur. These rapes are not all committed by Phillip Garrido, Brian David Mitchell, or other members of the Brotherhood of Scary Hair and Homemade Religion. While you may assume that none of the men you know are rapists, I can assure you that at least one is. Consider: if every rapist commits an average of ten rapes (a horrifying number, isnt it?) then the concentration of rapists in the population is still a little over one in sixty. That means four in my graduating class in high school. One among my coworkers. One in the subway car at rush hour. Eleven who work out at my gym. How do I know that you, the nice guy who wants nothing more than companionship and True Love, are not this rapist?

I dont.

When you approach me in public, you are Schrödingers Rapist. You may or may not be a man who would commit rape. I wont know for sure unless you start sexually assaulting me. I cant see inside your head, and I dont know your intentions. If you expect me to trust youto accept you at face value as a nice sort of guyyou are not only failing to respect my reasonable caution, you are being cavalier about my personal safety.

Fortunately, youre a good guy. Weve already established that. Now that youre aware that theres a problem, you are going to go out of your way to fix it, and to make the women with whom you interact feel as safe as possible.

To begin with, you must accept that I set my own risk tolerance. When you approach me, I will begin to evaluate the possibility you will do me harm. That possibility is never 0%. For some women, particularly women who have been victims of violent assaults, any level of risk is unacceptable. Those women do not want to be approached, no matter how nice you are or how much youd like to date them. Okay? Thats their right. Dont get pissy about it. Women are under no obligation to hear the sales pitch before deciding they are not in the market to buy.

The second important point: you must be aware of what signals you are sending by your appearance and the environment. We are going to be paying close attention to your appearance and behavior and matching those signs to our idea of a threat.

This means that some men should never approach strange women in public. Specifically, if you have truly unusual standards of personal cleanliness, if you are the prophet of your own religion, or if you have tattoos of gang symbols or Technicolor cockroaches all over your face and neck, you are just never going to get a good response approaching a woman cold. That doesnt mean youre doomed to a life of solitude, but I suggest you start with internet dating, where you can put your unusual traits out there and find a woman who will appreciate them.

Are you wearing a tee-shirt making a rape joke? NOT A GOOD CHOICEnot in general, and definitely not when approaching a strange woman.

Pay attention to the environment. Look around. Are you in a dark alley? Then probably you ought not approach a woman and try to strike up a conversation. The same applies if you are alone with a woman in most public places. If the public place is a closed area (a subway car, an elevator, a bus), even a crowded one, you may not realize that the womans ability to flee in case of threat is limited. Ask yourself, If I were dangerous, would this woman be safe in this space with me? If the answer is no, then it isnt appropriate to approach her.

On the other hand, if you are both at church accompanied by your mothers, who are lifelong best friends, the woman is as close as it comes to safe. That is to say, still not 100% safe. But the odds are pretty good.

The third point: Women are communicating all the time. Learn to understand and respect womens communication to you.

You want to say Hi to the cute girl on the subway. How will she react? Fortunately, I can tell you with some certainty, because shes already sending messages to you. Looking out the window, reading a book, working on a computer, arms folded across chest, body away from you = do not disturb. So, yknow, dont disturb her. Really. Even to say that you like her hair, shoes, or book. A compliment is not always a reason for women to smile and say thank you. You are a threat, remember? You are Schrödingers Rapist. Dont assume that whatever you have to say will win her over with charm or flattery. Believe what shes signaling, and back off.

If you speak, and she responds in a monosyllabic way without looking at you, shes saying, I dont want to be rude, but please leave me alone. You dont know why. It could be Please leave me alone because I am trying to memorize Beowulf. It could be Please leave me alone because you are a scary, scary man with breath like a water buffalo. It could be Please leave me alone because I am planning my assassination of a major geopolitical figure and I will have to kill you if you are able to recognize me and blow my cover.

On the other hand, if she is turned towards you, making eye contact, and she responds in a friendly and talkative manner when you speak to her, you are getting a green light. You can continue the conversation until you start getting signals to back off.

The fourth point: If you fail to respect what women say, you label yourself a problem.

Theres a man with whom I went out on a single dateafternoon coffee, for one hour by the clockon July 25th. In the two days after the date, he sent me about fifteen e-mails, scolding me for non-responsiveness. I e-mailed him back, saying, Look, this is a disproportionate response to a single date. You are making me uncomfortable. Do not contact me again. It is now October 7th. Does he still e-mail?

Yeah. He does. About every two weeks.

This man scores higher on the threat level scale than Man with the Cockroach Tattoos. (Who, after all, is guilty of nothing more than terrifying bad taste.) You see, Mr. E-mail has made it clear that he ignores what I say when he wants something from me. Now, I dont know if he is an actual rapist, and I sincerely hope hes not. But he is certainly Schrödingers Rapist, and this particular Schrödingers Rapist has a probability ratio greater than one in sixty. Because a man who ignores a womans NO in a non-sexual setting is more likely to ignore NO in a sexual setting, as well.

So if you speak to a woman who is otherwise occupied, youre sending a subtle message. It is that your desire to interact trumps her right to be left alone. If you pursue a conversation when shes tried to cut it off, you send a message. It is that your desire to speak trumps her right to be left alone. And each of those messages indicates that you believe your desires are a legitimate reason to override her rights.

For women, who are watching you very closely to determine how much of a threat you are, this is an important piece of data.

The fifth and last point: Dont rape. Nor should you commit these similar but less severe offenses: dont assault. Dont grope. Dont constrain. Dont brandish. Dont expose yourself. Dont threaten with physical violence. Dont threaten with sexual violence.

Shouldnt this go without saying? Of course it should. Sadly, thats not the world I live in. You may be beginning to realize that its not the world you live in, either.

Miss LonelyHearts wishes you happiness and success in your search for romantic companionship.

[Mysteron]

This article on the subject from a single NYC woman highlights quite well what some of us have been trying to say. I appreciate it's a little patronising in places but it explains some of the thought processes well.

Guest Blogger Starling: Schrödingers Rapist: or a guys guide to approaching strange women without being maced

Posted by Sweet Machine

Phaedra Starling is the pen name of a romance novelist and licensed private investigator living in small New York City apartment with two large dogs. She practices Brazilian jiu-jitsu and makes world-class apricot muffins.

Gentlemen. Thank you for reading.

Let me start out by assuring you that I understand you are a good sort of person. You are kind to children and animals. You respect the elderly. You donate to charity. You tell jokes without laughing at your own punchlines. You respect women. You like women. In fact, you would really like to have a mutually respectful and loving sexual relationship with a woman. Unfortunately, you dont yet know that womanshe isnt working with you, nor have you been introduced through mutual friends or drawn to the same activities. So you must look further afield to encounter her.

So far, so good. Miss LonelyHearts, your humble instructor, approves. Human connection, love, romance: there is nothing wrong with these yearnings.

Now, you want to become acquainted with a woman you see in public. The first thing you need to understand is that women are dealing with a set of challenges and concerns that are strange to you, a man. To begin with, we would rather not be killed or otherwise violently assaulted.

But wait! I dont want that, either!

Well, no. But do you think about it all the time? Is preventing violent assault or murder part of your daily routine, rather than merely something you do when you venture into war zones? Because, for women, it is. When I go on a date, I always leave the mans full name and contact information written next to my computer monitor. This is so the cops can find my body if I go missing. My best friend will call or e-mail me the next morning, and I must answer that call or e-mail before noon-ish, or she begins to worry. If she doesnt hear from me by three or so, shell call the police. My activities after dark are curtailed. Unless I am in a densely-occupied, well-lit space, I wont go out alone. Even then, I prefer to have a friend or two, or my dogs, with me. Do you follow rules like these?

So when you, a stranger, approach me, I have to ask myself: Will this man rape me?

Do you think Im overreacting? One in every six American women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime. I bet you dont think you know any rapists, but consider the sheer number of rapes that must occur. These rapes are not all committed by Phillip Garrido, Brian David Mitchell, or other members of the Brotherhood of Scary Hair and Homemade Religion. While you may assume that none of the men you know are rapists, I can assure you that at least one is. Consider: if every rapist commits an average of ten rapes (a horrifying number, isnt it?) then the concentration of rapists in the population is still a little over one in sixty. That means four in my graduating class in high school. One among my coworkers. One in the subway car at rush hour. Eleven who work out at my gym. How do I know that you, the nice guy who wants nothing more than companionship and True Love, are not this rapist?

I dont.

When you approach me in public, you are Schrödingers Rapist. You may or may not be a man who would commit rape. I wont know for sure unless you start sexually assaulting me. I cant see inside your head, and I dont know your intentions. If you expect me to trust youto accept you at face value as a nice sort of guyyou are not only failing to respect my reasonable caution, you are being cavalier about my personal safety.

Fortunately, youre a good guy. Weve already established that. Now that youre aware that theres a problem, you are going to go out of your way to fix it, and to make the women with whom you interact feel as safe as possible.

To begin with, you must accept that I set my own risk tolerance. When you approach me, I will begin to evaluate the possibility you will do me harm. That possibility is never 0%. For some women, particularly women who have been victims of violent assaults, any level of risk is unacceptable. Those women do not want to be approached, no matter how nice you are or how much youd like to date them. Okay? Thats their right. Dont get pissy about it. Women are under no obligation to hear the sales pitch before deciding they are not in the market to buy.

The second important point: you must be aware of what signals you are sending by your appearance and the environment. We are going to be paying close attention to your appearance and behavior and matching those signs to our idea of a threat.

This means that some men should never approach strange women in public. Specifically, if you have truly unusual standards of personal cleanliness, if you are the prophet of your own religion, or if you have tattoos of gang symbols or Technicolor cockroaches all over your face and neck, you are just never going to get a good response approaching a woman cold. That doesnt mean youre doomed to a life of solitude, but I suggest you start with internet dating, where you can put your unusual traits out there and find a woman who will appreciate them.

Are you wearing a tee-shirt making a rape joke? NOT A GOOD CHOICEnot in general, and definitely not when approaching a strange woman.

Pay attention to the environment. Look around. Are you in a dark alley? Then probably you ought not approach a woman and try to strike up a conversation. The same applies if you are alone with a woman in most public places. If the public place is a closed area (a subway car, an elevator, a bus), even a crowded one, you may not realize that the womans ability to flee in case of threat is limited. Ask yourself, If I were dangerous, would this woman be safe in this space with me? If the answer is no, then it isnt appropriate to approach her.

On the other hand, if you are both at church accompanied by your mothers, who are lifelong best friends, the woman is as close as it comes to safe. That is to say, still not 100% safe. But the odds are pretty good.

The third point: Women are communicating all the time. Learn to understand and respect womens communication to you.

You want to say Hi to the cute girl on the subway. How will she react? Fortunately, I can tell you with some certainty, because shes already sending messages to you. Looking out the window, reading a book, working on a computer, arms folded across chest, body away from you = do not disturb. So, yknow, dont disturb her. Really. Even to say that you like her hair, shoes, or book. A compliment is not always a reason for women to smile and say thank you. You are a threat, remember? You are Schrödingers Rapist. Dont assume that whatever you have to say will win her over with charm or flattery. Believe what shes signaling, and back off.

If you speak, and she responds in a monosyllabic way without looking at you, shes saying, I dont want to be rude, but please leave me alone. You dont know why. It could be Please leave me alone because I am trying to memorize Beowulf. It could be Please leave me alone because you are a scary, scary man with breath like a water buffalo. It could be Please leave me alone because I am planning my assassination of a major geopolitical figure and I will have to kill you if you are able to recognize me and blow my cover.

On the other hand, if she is turned towards you, making eye contact, and she responds in a friendly and talkative manner when you speak to her, you are getting a green light. You can continue the conversation until you start getting signals to back off.

The fourth point: If you fail to respect what women say, you label yourself a problem.

Theres a man with whom I went out on a single dateafternoon coffee, for one hour by the clockon July 25th. In the two days after the date, he sent me about fifteen e-mails, scolding me for non-responsiveness. I e-mailed him back, saying, Look, this is a disproportionate response to a single date. You are making me uncomfortable. Do not contact me again. It is now October 7th. Does he still e-mail?

Yeah. He does. About every two weeks.

This man scores higher on the threat level scale than Man with the Cockroach Tattoos. (Who, after all, is guilty of nothing more than terrifying bad taste.) You see, Mr. E-mail has made it clear that he ignores what I say when he wants something from me. Now, I dont know if he is an actual rapist, and I sincerely hope hes not. But he is certainly Schrödingers Rapist, and this particular Schrödingers Rapist has a probability ratio greater than one in sixty. Because a man who ignores a womans NO in a non-sexual setting is more likely to ignore NO in a sexual setting, as well.

So if you speak to a woman who is otherwise occupied, youre sending a subtle message. It is that your desire to interact trumps her right to be left alone. If you pursue a conversation when shes tried to cut it off, you send a message. It is that your desire to speak trumps her right to be left alone. And each of those messages indicates that you believe your desires are a legitimate reason to override her rights.

For women, who are watching you very closely to determine how much of a threat you are, this is an important piece of data.

The fifth and last point: Dont rape. Nor should you commit these similar but less severe offenses: dont assault. Dont grope. Dont constrain. Dont brandish. Dont expose yourself. Dont threaten with physical violence. Dont threaten with sexual violence.

Shouldnt this go without saying? Of course it should. Sadly, thats not the world I live in. You may be beginning to realize that its not the world you live in, either.

Miss LonelyHearts wishes you happiness and success in your search for romantic companionship.

Reading this is like reading the bible

[arnold layne]

The fact that this fucking topic has fifty seven pages is harassment to my 'View New Content'.

WTF everyone.

[Patience 4 Axl]

The solution couldn't possibly be that maybe men should just stop addressing women they don't know who happen to pass them on the street. Ok. Nothing wrong there at all.

Regardless of whether you think "addressing" women is right or wrong, it's not a matter of what "should" be ... it's a matter of accepting reality.

I SHOULD be comfortable parking my car in a public place without bothering to lock the doors or set the alarm.

I SHOULD be comfortable leaving the front door to my house unlocked.

I SHOULD be comfortable letting my kid wait at the bus stop by herself.

I SHOULD be comfortable walking in public with my wallet in my back pocket.

I SHOULD be comfortable crossing a street in a crosswalk without first looking both ways.

Reality is, I'm not comfortable in ANY of those situations. So I adapt.

If someone steals your car it's a crime.

If someone robs your house it's a crime.

If someone abducts your child it's a crime.

If someone steals your wallet it's a crime.

If someone intentionally hits you with their car it's a crime.

If someone makes unwanted advances to a woman she just has to deal with it.

[magisme]

Analogy completely misunderstood.

[Patience 4 Axl]

Much like this entire thread and most of the males posting in it.

[magisme]

The thread and the males are misunderstood?

[bacardimayne]

lol 57 pages

[Ace Nova]

The solution couldn't possibly be that maybe men should just stop addressing women they don't know who happen to pass them on the street. Ok. Nothing wrong there at all.

Regardless of whether you think "addressing" women is right or wrong, it's not a matter of what "should" be ... it's a matter of accepting reality.

I SHOULD be comfortable parking my car in a public place without bothering to lock the doors or set the alarm.

I SHOULD be comfortable leaving the front door to my house unlocked.

I SHOULD be comfortable letting my kid wait at the bus stop by herself.

I SHOULD be comfortable walking in public with my wallet in my back pocket.

I SHOULD be comfortable crossing a street in a crosswalk without first looking both ways.

Reality is, I'm not comfortable in ANY of those situations. So I adapt.

If someone steals your car it's a crime.

If someone robs your house it's a crime.

If someone abducts your child it's a crime.

If someone steals your wallet it's a crime.

If someone intentionally hits you with their car it's a crime.

If someone makes unwanted advances to a woman she just has to deal with it.

If it's bad enough, it could be considered assault, which is a crime.

[Facekicker]

If you believe that a person should have the freedom to greet a stranger, and that wanting to chat up a person you find attractive is acceptable, then you shouldn't start getting hysterical when people do the two together. If that was outlawed, half you people wouldn't fucking exist. What you think your parents or grandparents went on Tinder or OkCupid back in the day? By all means call those guys out in the video for having shitty game but let's not use some exploitative race baiting bullshit video as an excuse to brand natural behaviour responsible for your ass even existing as "harassment."

If you want a reasonable discussion, start from a reasonable base, not some weak ass money spinning con job like that Hollaback video.

[AdriftatSea]

Okay, here is some comic relief for everyone! I hope no one gets offended! The guy was only asking for directions. It's funny.

For those of you that watched Lio's video, I think we can all agree it would have served that woman well to have had the same arsenal in her purse!

(Hey Lennie, I said ARSENAL!)

[Len Cnut]

Okay, here is some comic relief for everyone! I hope no one gets offended! The guy was only asking for directions. It's funny.

For those of you that watched Lio's video, I think we can all agree it would have served that woman well to have had the same arsenal in her purse!

(Hey Lennie, I said ARSENAL!)

AND ITS ARRRRRRSENAL FC, WE'RE BY FAR THE BEST TEAM THE WORLD HAS EVER SEEN!!!

WHAT DO WE THINK OF TOTTENHAM?

SHIT!!!

WHAT DO WE THINK OF SHIT?!?!

TOTTENHAM!!!

THANK YOU!!!

THATS ALRIGHT, HE HATE TOTTENHAM WE TOTTENHAM WE HATE TOTTENHAM WE HATE TOTTENHAM!!!

Sorry, tourettes!

[Len Cnut]

Orsys likes this, why, are you a Gooner by any chance? If yes, will you marry me? And that ain't harassment cuz I'm willing to see you all the way to a golden anniversary on the back of it

[Orsys]

Orsys likes this, why, are you a Gooner by any chance? If yes, will you marry me? And that ain't harassment cuz I'm willing to see you all the way to a golden anniversary on the back of it

50 years of screaming gooners in my living room?

Hmmm

Love ya but no thanks. Let's keep it at the pub.

[Len Cnut]

Your family support Arsenal?!?! OK my new favorite poster, i'll try not and hold the shoot down against you

Aint you from Canada my dear? You got history in North London then?

Edited November 8, 2014 by Lennie Godber

[Patience 4 Axl]

Analogy completely misunderstood.

Much like this entire thread and most of the males posting in it.

The thread and the males are misunderstood?

Yeah that's what I meant. You pretty much highlight the point. Anything else you'd like to misunderstand?

[Len Cnut]

Y'know it's worth noting that men get a kind of harassment too...but from other men. Legislation regarding harassment might be beneficial to men too, being that like, y'know, who ain't been out on a Saturday night and got a load of shit of some twat who fancies himself a Master of the Universe.

Lith', you're built like a fuckin' shithouse, do you find people ever wanna give you the needle, try you out etc? (no, not in the Johnny Drama sense of the phrase )

[magisme]

Analogy completely misunderstood.

Much like this entire thread and most of the males posting in it.

The thread and the males are misunderstood?

Yeah that's what I meant. You pretty much highlight the point. Anything else you'd like to misunderstand?

Based on your performance in this thread, I hope you think I misunderstand. You need to find Jesus, or talk to someone, or something.

[Facekicker]

Yeah I'm done with this.

[Len Cnut]

I'm hanging on for the Mags vs P4A main event

[Patience 4 Axl]

Analogy completely misunderstood.

Much like this entire thread and most of the males posting in it.

The thread and the males are misunderstood?

Yeah that's what I meant. You pretty much highlight the point. Anything else you'd like to misunderstand?

Based on your performance in this thread, I hope you think I misunderstand. You need to find Jesus, or talk to someone, or something.

I'm not the one asking the internet how to make friends. But perhaps you're right, maybe I should embrace talking to a strange man on the street. You never know, the guy telling me I have a nice ass could potentially be the future father of my children. Solid advice, thanks man.

[AdriftatSea]

Analogy completely misunderstood.

Much like this entire thread and most of the males posting in it.

The thread and the males are misunderstood?

Yeah that's what I meant. You pretty much highlight the point. Anything else you'd like to misunderstand?

Based on your performance in this thread, I hope you think I misunderstand. You need to find Jesus, or talk to someone, or something.

I'm not the one asking the internet how to make friends. But perhaps you're right, maybe I should embrace talking to a strange man on the street. You never know, the guy telling me I have a nice ass could potentially be the future father of my children. Solid advice, thanks man.

but mags nor any of the other men here ever said it was okay for any man to call out to you in the streets things like 'nice ass'... they don't agree with that either

[Damn_Smooth]

Analogy completely misunderstood.

Much like this entire thread and most of the males posting in it.

The thread and the males are misunderstood?

Yeah that's what I meant. You pretty much highlight the point. Anything else you'd like to misunderstand?

Based on your performance in this thread, I hope you think I misunderstand. You need to find Jesus, or talk to someone, or something.

I'm not the one asking the internet how to make friends. But perhaps you're right, maybe I should embrace talking to a strange man on the street. You never know, the guy telling me I have a nice ass could potentially be the future father of my children. Solid advice, thanks man.

but mags nor any of the other men here ever said it was okay for any man to call out to you in the streets things like 'nice ass'... they don't agree with that either

I'm perfectly OK with it.

[AdriftatSea]

Analogy completely misunderstood.

Much like this entire thread and most of the males posting in it.

The thread and the males are misunderstood?

Yeah that's what I meant. You pretty much highlight the point. Anything else you'd like to misunderstand?

Based on your performance in this thread, I hope you think I misunderstand. You need to find Jesus, or talk to someone, or something.

I'm not the one asking the internet how to make friends. But perhaps you're right, maybe I should embrace talking to a strange man on the street. You never know, the guy telling me I have a nice ass could potentially be the future father of my children. Solid advice, thanks man.

but mags nor any of the other men here ever said it was okay for any man to call out to you in the streets things like 'nice ass'... they don't agree with that either

I'm perfectly OK with it.

You 'ole hound dog.

[Orsys]

Do I get a party for 4,000 posts?