TB's role in a potential Reunion

[tomfriend]

Axl is a special case though. He can and will just go home. It's his band he calls the shots and TB try to comply. Noven, Dougie and Merck even Doc tried but nothing happens. No manager can really do anything. Funny thing is when he says ok they reject the albums anyway.

I know an album was rejected in 1999, but do we have any concrete evidence the label rejected another album in 2010?

Not one single shred of it. It's a wish some people cling to rather than acknowledge so they can pretend it's the big mean labels fault and not Axl's.

Oh yeah. If the label had rejected a new GNR album, I'm sure that:

- Nobody at the label would have said anything

- Axl, who is such a shrinking violet wouldn't have ranted about it in concert

- Neither Axl or any of the band would have mentioned it as a reason for the delay in all the years since - despite the fact that they've racked up hundreds of interviews combined in the last few years and being asked about a new album more or less every time

- the band wouldn't have at least played a song or two from it on one of the many tours either around that time or since

2010 album is bullshit.

[Stress Fracture]

If the album being rejected were the case, why didn't the major record label do what major record labels normally do and drop the act?

They might be right in what they say but there's no point in telling an artist in his 50s to go away and come back with something that has more mass market appeal. Another label will happily take those 4m sales.

Hits aren't achieved on merit. The charts are rammed full of shit.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Stress Fracture

[wasted]

According to rumor they said there wasn't enough time. Axl wanted to put something out in time for Reading or something.

They weren't saying make a better record just it was too soon in 2010. Why after 2008 and CD under sold or that was the perception would they put out another record?

I don't think the band or Axl would be broadcasting it.

There's no proof it happened though. Probably insider bullshit. Why bullshit about that though.

In the chats Axl hinted at next year for part 2. So it's not impossible.

[SoulMonster]

Haha 'social mobility'. Yeah, the social mobility of latching on to someone with mental problems and a history of abuse, convincing him you're his mother, making him dependent on you for years and then actually telling him (by her own admission!) that if he doesn't let you manage his band you'll walk?

Not that I agree with how you portray the situation -- which is conjecture for comedic effect -- but using all means necesarry to claw your way from the gutter to power, isn't all that in contradiction with the American Dream. Fact still remains that she was an immigrant with a nanny job who now leads Team Brazil, managers of a fairly large music band. That is de facto social mobility regardles of what you may think of how you believe she has done it.

None of what I posted was conjecture. I'm interested to know which aspects of it you do not think are backed up by the facts. Beta most certainly made that threat to Axl and later bragged about it to fans.

I will concede that being ruthless, cold, manipulative and heartless, stepping on someone to attain a level of power that one neither deserves or is qualified to wield could well be considered the modern version of the American Dream though. And modern America is tanking fast. A little like Axl's band.

All normal people can do is take people at their word.

Axl has called Beta his "mom" in a very public setting. Going so far as to attempt to punch somebody for bumping into his "mom."

Beta told a reporter that she told Axl she would leave him if he didn't make her the bands manager.

Beta lives in Axl's mansion.

Beta has contacted/lashed out as mods on here to have topics and posters banned when they made posts that she didn't like.

But Soulmonster is right. We shouldn't accept the words that have came out of Axl and Beta's mouths. We shouldn't believe what they have actually said. Ignore them, think of them as lying.

Instead we should take Soumonsters opinion on what he says Axl and Beta really meant.

All of us on here should be thankful that we have Soulmonster here to educate us.

Lol. You can't make this stuff up.

I don't think you are getting it. This time, either. I am not denying that Axl has referred to Beta as his mother, just the assumption that this means he actually thinks she is his mother, and the conjecture that Beta has deliberately convinced him (by trickery one would presume? Surely she must be some kind of witch ) into believing it, which was what "tomfriend" jokingly claimed. I got the joke, just pointed out that it is still based on conjecture. You, Apollo, doesn't seem to get any of this.

[dalsh327]

The impression I got was as soon as the ink was still wet with Best Buy, Interscope dropped the ball on GNR and weren't even considering any kind of follow up at the time. The 3D DVD discussions probably went into new music, time went by and someone new was running the record company, Iovine was busy with Dre over Beats (especially when that turned out to be a billion dollar deal) and working on the Apple deal (which is turning out to be a fail).

It's been 7 years but it's not a good sign when the only music they've done have all been cover songs, but like I've said, they could easily just have gone in the studio and put a digital EP out, esp. when the DVD came out for those buyers (who should have had a free year's membership when they bought the DVD), and something for the fan club to have.

[Rovim]

I don't think you are getting it. This time, either. I am not denying that Axl has referred to Beta as his mother, just the assumption that this means he actually thinks she is his mother, and the conjecture that Beta has deliberately convinced him (by trickery one would presume? Surely she must be some kind of witch ) into believing it, which was what "tomfriend" jokingly claimed. I got the joke, just pointed out that it is still based on conjecture. You, Apollo, doesn't seem to get any of this.

She played the part of his mother when he needed someone to love and trust. Money was involved, and she and her family have benefited from that connection greatly. Axl changed their life completely.

Still doesn't devalue what Beta gave to him. She was there for him in one of the toughest times in his life. I don't believe there isn't a genuine mutual feeling of trust, love, and respect there. But technically yeah, fake mother. It's like she adopted a grown man, but he's not really a mature person, so I can see how that happened, as weird as it might seem to a lot of people.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Rovim

[Little EMO Annie]

I don't think you are getting it. This time, either. I am not denying that Axl has referred to Beta as his mother, just the assumption that this means he actually thinks she is his mother, and the conjecture that Beta has deliberately convinced him (by trickery one would presume? Surely she must be some kind of witch ) into believing it, which was what "tomfriend" jokingly claimed. I got the joke, just pointed out that it is still based on conjecture. You, Apollo, doesn't seem to get any of this.

She played the part of his mother when he needed someone to love and trust. Money was involved, and she and her family have benefited from that connection greatly. Axl changed their life completely.

Still doesn't devalue what Beta gave to him. She was there for him in one of the toughest times in his life. I don't believe there isn't a genuine mutual feeling of trust, love, and respect there. But technically yeah, fake mother. It's like she adopted a grown man, but he's not really a mature person, so I can see how that happened, as weird as it might seem to a lot of people.

Thankyou both for the 2 bit analysis of a relationship that is very important to all parties invoved. NOT! You don't know any of these people. So you have no right to judge or analyze them in such a hateful manner.

[SoulMonster]

I don't think you are getting it. This time, either. I am not denying that Axl has referred to Beta as his mother, just the assumption that this means he actually thinks she is his mother, and the conjecture that Beta has deliberately convinced him (by trickery one would presume? Surely she must be some kind of witch ) into believing it, which was what "tomfriend" jokingly claimed. I got the joke, just pointed out that it is still based on conjecture. You, Apollo, doesn't seem to get any of this.

She played the part of his mother when he needed someone to love and trust. Money was involved, and she and her family have benefited from that connection greatly. Axl changed their life completely.

Still doesn't devalue what Beta gave to him. She was there for him in one of the toughest times in his life. I don't believe there isn't a genuine mutual feeling of trust, love, and respect there. But technically yeah, fake mother. It's like she adopted a grown man, but he's not really a mature person, so I can see how that happened, as weird as it might seem to a lot of people.

Thankyou both for the 2 bit analysis of a relationship that is very important to all parties invoved. NOT! You don't know any of these people. So you have no right to judge or analyze them in such a hateful manner.

Who have I analyzed in a hateful manner?

[Little EMO Annie]

I don't think you are getting it. This time, either. I am not denying that Axl has referred to Beta as his mother, just the assumption that this means he actually thinks she is his mother, and the conjecture that Beta has deliberately convinced him (by trickery one would presume? Surely she must be some kind of witch ) into believing it, which was what "tomfriend" jokingly claimed. I got the joke, just pointed out that it is still based on conjecture. You, Apollo, doesn't seem to get any of this.

She played the part of his mother when he needed someone to love and trust. Money was involved, and she and her family have benefited from that connection greatly. Axl changed their life completely.

Still doesn't devalue what Beta gave to him. She was there for him in one of the toughest times in his life. I don't believe there isn't a genuine mutual feeling of trust, love, and respect there. But technically yeah, fake mother. It's like she adopted a grown man, but he's not really a mature person, so I can see how that happened, as weird as it might seem to a lot of people.

Thankyou both for the 2 bit analysis of a relationship that is very important to all parties invoved. NOT! You don't know any of these people. So you have no right to judge or analyze them in such a hateful manner.

Who have I analyzed in a hateful manner?

Do I really need to answer that question. What you said was very passive aggressive.

[SoulMonster]

I don't think you are getting it. This time, either. I am not denying that Axl has referred to Beta as his mother, just the assumption that this means he actually thinks she is his mother, and the conjecture that Beta has deliberately convinced him (by trickery one would presume? Surely she must be some kind of witch ) into believing it, which was what "tomfriend" jokingly claimed. I got the joke, just pointed out that it is still based on conjecture. You, Apollo, doesn't seem to get any of this.

She played the part of his mother when he needed someone to love and trust. Money was involved, and she and her family have benefited from that connection greatly. Axl changed their life completely.

Still doesn't devalue what Beta gave to him. She was there for him in one of the toughest times in his life. I don't believe there isn't a genuine mutual feeling of trust, love, and respect there. But technically yeah, fake mother. It's like she adopted a grown man, but he's not really a mature person, so I can see how that happened, as weird as it might seem to a lot of people.

Thankyou both for the 2 bit analysis of a relationship that is very important to all parties invoved. NOT! You don't know any of these people. So you have no right to judge or analyze them in such a hateful manner.

Who have I analyzed in a hateful manner?

Do I really need to answer that question. What you said was very passive aggressive.

No, of course you don't need to do that. But I think you are wrong in your analyses. Anyway, what I wanted to say is that the purposeful portraying of Beta as a person who maliciously has maneuvred herself into a position of power with Axl purely for personal gain, is pure conjecture. I don't buy it. She may not be a great manager but I don't think she deserves to have her intentions written off as solely nefarious. I try to be reasonable on this and I think it is wrong to judge her when we don't have enough evidence either way, and then I must fall down on a conclusion to await any judgment. It basically just common decency. I am not sayign she isn't this witch some people here seem to think, just that I find it implausible based on what we know, and indecent to jump to any comclusions. This is exactly what I feel, any "passive aggressive" tones to my words are completely unintentional and unfortunate.

[Little EMO Annie]

I don't think you are getting it. This time, either. I am not denying that Axl has referred to Beta as his mother, just the assumption that this means he actually thinks she is his mother, and the conjecture that Beta has deliberately convinced him (by trickery one would presume? Surely she must be some kind of witch ) into believing it, which was what "tomfriend" jokingly claimed. I got the joke, just pointed out that it is still based on conjecture. You, Apollo, doesn't seem to get any of this.

She played the part of his mother when he needed someone to love and trust. Money was involved, and she and her family have benefited from that connection greatly. Axl changed their life completely.

Still doesn't devalue what Beta gave to him. She was there for him in one of the toughest times in his life. I don't believe there isn't a genuine mutual feeling of trust, love, and respect there. But technically yeah, fake mother. It's like she adopted a grown man, but he's not really a mature person, so I can see how that happened, as weird as it might seem to a lot of people.

Thankyou both for the 2 bit analysis of a relationship that is very important to all parties invoved. NOT! You don't know any of these people. So you have no right to judge or analyze them in such a hateful manner.

Who have I analyzed in a hateful manner?

Do I really need to answer that question. What you said was very passive aggressive.

No, of course you don't need to do that. But I think you are wrong in your analyses. Anyway, what I wanted to say is that the purposeful portraying of Beta as a person who maliciously has maneuvred herself into a position of power with Axl purely for personal gain, is pure conjecture. I don't buy it. She may not be a great manager but I don't think she deserves to have her intentions written off as solely nefarious. I try to be reasonable on this and I think it is wrong to judge her when we don't have enough evidence either way, and then I must fall down on a conclusion to await any judgment. It basically just common decency. I am not sayign she isn't this witch some people here seem to think, just that I find it implausible based on what we know, and indecent to jump to any comclusions. This is exactly what I feel, any "passive aggressive" tones to my words are completely unintentional and unfortunate.

That's a little better. The person who responded to your post was really the passive aggressive one making little jabs.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Little EMO Annie

[tomfriend]

I don't think you are getting it. This time, either. I am not denying that Axl has referred to Beta as his mother, just the assumption that this means he actually thinks she is his mother, and the conjecture that Beta has deliberately convinced him (by trickery one would presume? Surely she must be some kind of witch ) into believing it, which was what "tomfriend" jokingly claimed. I got the joke, just pointed out that it is still based on conjecture. You, Apollo, doesn't seem to get any of this.

She played the part of his mother when he needed someone to love and trust. Money was involved, and she and her family have benefited from that connection greatly. Axl changed their life completely.

Still doesn't devalue what Beta gave to him. She was there for him in one of the toughest times in his life. I don't believe there isn't a genuine mutual feeling of trust, love, and respect there. But technically yeah, fake mother. It's like she adopted a grown man, but he's not really a mature person, so I can see how that happened, as weird as it might seem to a lot of people.

Thankyou both for the 2 bit analysis of a relationship that is very important to all parties invoved. NOT! You don't know any of these people. So you have no right to judge or analyze them in such a hateful manner.

Who have I analyzed in a hateful manner?

Do I really need to answer that question. What you said was very passive aggressive.

No, of course you don't need to do that. But I think you are wrong in your analyses. Anyway, what I wanted to say is that the purposeful portraying of Beta as a person who maliciously has maneuvred herself into a position of power with Axl purely for personal gain, is pure conjecture. I don't buy it. She may not be a great manager but I don't think she deserves to have her intentions written off as solely nefarious. I try to be reasonable on this and I think it is wrong to judge her when we don't have enough evidence either way, and then I must fall down on a conclusion to await any judgment. It basically just common decency. I am not sayign she isn't this witch some people here seem to think, just that I find it implausible based on what we know, and indecent to jump to any comclusions. This is exactly what I feel, any "passive aggressive" tones to my words are completely unintentional and unfortunate.

Telling someone who is dependent on you and considers you to be the mother figure in his life that you will leave him unless he makes you manager of his multimillion dollar band isn't maliciously maneuvering yourself into a position of power?

Hahahaha...I've heard it all now.

[SoulMonster]

I don't think you are getting it. This time, either. I am not denying that Axl has referred to Beta as his mother, just the assumption that this means he actually thinks she is his mother, and the conjecture that Beta has deliberately convinced him (by trickery one would presume? Surely she must be some kind of witch ) into believing it, which was what "tomfriend" jokingly claimed. I got the joke, just pointed out that it is still based on conjecture. You, Apollo, doesn't seem to get any of this.

She played the part of his mother when he needed someone to love and trust. Money was involved, and she and her family have benefited from that connection greatly. Axl changed their life completely.

Still doesn't devalue what Beta gave to him. She was there for him in one of the toughest times in his life. I don't believe there isn't a genuine mutual feeling of trust, love, and respect there. But technically yeah, fake mother. It's like she adopted a grown man, but he's not really a mature person, so I can see how that happened, as weird as it might seem to a lot of people.

Thankyou both for the 2 bit analysis of a relationship that is very important to all parties invoved. NOT! You don't know any of these people. So you have no right to judge or analyze them in such a hateful manner.

Who have I analyzed in a hateful manner?

Do I really need to answer that question. What you said was very passive aggressive.

No, of course you don't need to do that. But I think you are wrong in your analyses. Anyway, what I wanted to say is that the purposeful portraying of Beta as a person who maliciously has maneuvred herself into a position of power with Axl purely for personal gain, is pure conjecture. I don't buy it. She may not be a great manager but I don't think she deserves to have her intentions written off as solely nefarious. I try to be reasonable on this and I think it is wrong to judge her when we don't have enough evidence either way, and then I must fall down on a conclusion to await any judgment. It basically just common decency. I am not sayign she isn't this witch some people here seem to think, just that I find it implausible based on what we know, and indecent to jump to any comclusions. This is exactly what I feel, any "passive aggressive" tones to my words are completely unintentional and unfortunate.

Telling someone who is dependent on you and considers you to be the mother figure in his life that you will leave him unless he makes you manager of his multimillion dollar band isn't maliciously maneuvering yourself into a position of power?

Hahahaha...I've heard it all now.

It could be. It is certainly a maneuvring thing. But assigning any ill-intent to it is again...wait for it....conjecture. I mean, yeah, sure, it could be she did it for personal gain foremost. She could be that evil witch who has spent the majority of her life strategically maneuviring into a position of power to abuse the trust of a guy to suck him dry and take his money. That is not impossible at all. It has happened before. But it could also be that she seriously thought Axl would be better off with her than any other manager. And I am talking about the well-being of Axl now, not what would be the best strategic decision for Guns N' Roses to make that band as large as possible. I am talking about what would make Axl's life as stress free as possible. And if so, what she did could be considered being done out of compassion for Axl, hell, I am even going to use the L word, and not because she is that evil witch who has latched onto Axl to cynically steal his money through driving GN'R into the ground, or whatever. And going on a tangent here, and because I am drunk, I have to say I find it funny that people who think Beta is in it to take Axl's money at the same time claims she is against a reunion -- which would be the greatest source of money for her.

Again, here's my default disclaimer, I am not saying Beta isn't this horrible person that some people here make her out to be. Just that I find it more plausible that the problems with GN'R stems from defaults intrinsic to Axl, and that beta just tries to protect him from what makes his life worse. I am on the fence here, I don't know how Beta is. I just go with what I do know and I don't like to see all the bashing of someone not here to defend themselves.

[tomfriend]

I don't think you are getting it. This time, either. I am not denying that Axl has referred to Beta as his mother, just the assumption that this means he actually thinks she is his mother, and the conjecture that Beta has deliberately convinced him (by trickery one would presume? Surely she must be some kind of witch ) into believing it, which was what "tomfriend" jokingly claimed. I got the joke, just pointed out that it is still based on conjecture. You, Apollo, doesn't seem to get any of this.

She played the part of his mother when he needed someone to love and trust. Money was involved, and she and her family have benefited from that connection greatly. Axl changed their life completely.

Still doesn't devalue what Beta gave to him. She was there for him in one of the toughest times in his life. I don't believe there isn't a genuine mutual feeling of trust, love, and respect there. But technically yeah, fake mother. It's like she adopted a grown man, but he's not really a mature person, so I can see how that happened, as weird as it might seem to a lot of people.

Thankyou both for the 2 bit analysis of a relationship that is very important to all parties invoved. NOT! You don't know any of these people. So you have no right to judge or analyze them in such a hateful manner.

Who have I analyzed in a hateful manner?

Do I really need to answer that question. What you said was very passive aggressive.

No, of course you don't need to do that. But I think you are wrong in your analyses. Anyway, what I wanted to say is that the purposeful portraying of Beta as a person who maliciously has maneuvred herself into a position of power with Axl purely for personal gain, is pure conjecture. I don't buy it. She may not be a great manager but I don't think she deserves to have her intentions written off as solely nefarious. I try to be reasonable on this and I think it is wrong to judge her when we don't have enough evidence either way, and then I must fall down on a conclusion to await any judgment. It basically just common decency. I am not sayign she isn't this witch some people here seem to think, just that I find it implausible based on what we know, and indecent to jump to any comclusions. This is exactly what I feel, any "passive aggressive" tones to my words are completely unintentional and unfortunate.

Telling someone who is dependent on you and considers you to be the mother figure in his life that you will leave him unless he makes you manager of his multimillion dollar band isn't maliciously maneuvering yourself into a position of power?

Hahahaha...I've heard it all now.

It could be. It is certainly a maneuvring thing. But assigning any ill-intent to it is again...wait for it....conjecture. I mean, yeah, sure, it could be she did it for personal gain foremost. She could be that evil witch who has spent the majority of her life strategically maneuviring into a position of power to abuse the trust of a guy to suck him dry and take his money. That is not impossible at all. It has happened before. But it could also be that she seriously thought Axl would be better off with her than any other manager. And I am talking about the well-being of Axl now, not what would be the best strategic decision for Guns N' Roses to make that band as large as possible. I am talking about what would make Axl's life as stress free as possible. And if so, what she did could be considered being done out of compassion for Axl, hell, I am even going to use the L word, and not because she is that evil witch who has latched onto Axl to cynically steal his money through driving GN'R into the ground, or whatever. And going on a tangent here, and because I am drunk, I have to say I find it funny that people who think Beta is in it to take Axl's money at the same time claims she is against a reunion -- which would be the greatest source of money for her.

Again, here's my default disclaimer, I am not saying Beta isn't this horrible person that some people here make her out to be. Just that I find it more plausible that the problems with GN'R stems from defaults intrinsic to Axl, and that beta just tries to protect him from what makes his life worse. I am on the fence here, I don't know how Beta is. I just go with what I do know and I don't like to see all the bashing of someone not here to defend themselves.

In my book threatening to leave a person who loves and depends on you unless they restructure their business with you at the helm is never not evil, as is using somebody's deep emotional bond with you to force a person into doing what you want them to do. I'm weird that way.

Also for anyone who thinks criticising this is beyond the pale, let's not forget who voluntarily made it a matter of public record. Give me a B-...

Edited October 27, 2015 by tomfriend

[SoulMonster]

I don't think you are getting it. This time, either. I am not denying that Axl has referred to Beta as his mother, just the assumption that this means he actually thinks she is his mother, and the conjecture that Beta has deliberately convinced him (by trickery one would presume? Surely she must be some kind of witch ) into believing it, which was what "tomfriend" jokingly claimed. I got the joke, just pointed out that it is still based on conjecture. You, Apollo, doesn't seem to get any of this.

She played the part of his mother when he needed someone to love and trust. Money was involved, and she and her family have benefited from that connection greatly. Axl changed their life completely.

Still doesn't devalue what Beta gave to him. She was there for him in one of the toughest times in his life. I don't believe there isn't a genuine mutual feeling of trust, love, and respect there. But technically yeah, fake mother. It's like she adopted a grown man, but he's not really a mature person, so I can see how that happened, as weird as it might seem to a lot of people.

Thankyou both for the 2 bit analysis of a relationship that is very important to all parties invoved. NOT! You don't know any of these people. So you have no right to judge or analyze them in such a hateful manner.

Who have I analyzed in a hateful manner?

Do I really need to answer that question. What you said was very passive aggressive.

No, of course you don't need to do that. But I think you are wrong in your analyses. Anyway, what I wanted to say is that the purposeful portraying of Beta as a person who maliciously has maneuvred herself into a position of power with Axl purely for personal gain, is pure conjecture. I don't buy it. She may not be a great manager but I don't think she deserves to have her intentions written off as solely nefarious. I try to be reasonable on this and I think it is wrong to judge her when we don't have enough evidence either way, and then I must fall down on a conclusion to await any judgment. It basically just common decency. I am not sayign she isn't this witch some people here seem to think, just that I find it implausible based on what we know, and indecent to jump to any comclusions. This is exactly what I feel, any "passive aggressive" tones to my words are completely unintentional and unfortunate.

Telling someone who is dependent on you and considers you to be the mother figure in his life that you will leave him unless he makes you manager of his multimillion dollar band isn't maliciously maneuvering yourself into a position of power?

Hahahaha...I've heard it all now.

It could be. It is certainly a maneuvring thing. But assigning any ill-intent to it is again...wait for it....conjecture. I mean, yeah, sure, it could be she did it for personal gain foremost. She could be that evil witch who has spent the majority of her life strategically maneuviring into a position of power to abuse the trust of a guy to suck him dry and take his money. That is not impossible at all. It has happened before. But it could also be that she seriously thought Axl would be better off with her than any other manager. And I am talking about the well-being of Axl now, not what would be the best strategic decision for Guns N' Roses to make that band as large as possible. I am talking about what would make Axl's life as stress free as possible. And if so, what she did could be considered being done out of compassion for Axl, hell, I am even going to use the L word, and not because she is that evil witch who has latched onto Axl to cynically steal his money through driving GN'R into the ground, or whatever. And going on a tangent here, and because I am drunk, I have to say I find it funny that people who think Beta is in it to take Axl's money at the same time claims she is against a reunion -- which would be the greatest source of money for her.

Again, here's my default disclaimer, I am not saying Beta isn't this horrible person that some people here make her out to be. Just that I find it more plausible that the problems with GN'R stems from defaults intrinsic to Axl, and that beta just tries to protect him from what makes his life worse. I am on the fence here, I don't know how Beta is. I just go with what I do know and I don't like to see all the bashing of someone not here to defend themselves.

In my book threatening to leave a person who loves and depends on you unless they restructure their business with you at the helm is never not evil, as is using somebody's deep emotional bond with you to force a person into doing what you want them to do. I'm weird that way.

Also for anyone who thinks criticising this is beyond the pale, let's not forget who voluntarily made it a matter of public record. Give me a B-...

You are assinging ill-intent to something you honestly don't know the intentions behind.

But this is what it all boils down to, right? One comment from Beta about her giving Axl an ultimatum. That's all you've got to paint her in this bad light.

[tomfriend]

I don't think you are getting it. This time, either. I am not denying that Axl has referred to Beta as his mother, just the assumption that this means he actually thinks she is his mother, and the conjecture that Beta has deliberately convinced him (by trickery one would presume? Surely she must be some kind of witch ) into believing it, which was what "tomfriend" jokingly claimed. I got the joke, just pointed out that it is still based on conjecture. You, Apollo, doesn't seem to get any of this.

She played the part of his mother when he needed someone to love and trust. Money was involved, and she and her family have benefited from that connection greatly. Axl changed their life completely. Still doesn't devalue what Beta gave to him. She was there for him in one of the toughest times in his life. I don't believe there isn't a genuine mutual feeling of trust, love, and respect there. But technically yeah, fake mother. It's like she adopted a grown man, but he's not really a mature person, so I can see how that happened, as weird as it might seem to a lot of people.

Thankyou both for the 2 bit analysis of a relationship that is very important to all parties invoved. NOT! You don't know any of these people. So you have no right to judge or analyze them in such a hateful manner.

Who have I analyzed in a hateful manner?

Do I really need to answer that question. What you said was very passive aggressive.

No, of course you don't need to do that. But I think you are wrong in your analyses. Anyway, what I wanted to say is that the purposeful portraying of Beta as a person who maliciously has maneuvred herself into a position of power with Axl purely for personal gain, is pure conjecture. I don't buy it. She may not be a great manager but I don't think she deserves to have her intentions written off as solely nefarious. I try to be reasonable on this and I think it is wrong to judge her when we don't have enough evidence either way, and then I must fall down on a conclusion to await any judgment. It basically just common decency. I am not sayign she isn't this witch some people here seem to think, just that I find it implausible based on what we know, and indecent to jump to any comclusions. This is exactly what I feel, any "passive aggressive" tones to my words are completely unintentional and unfortunate.

Telling someone who is dependent on you and considers you to be the mother figure in his life that you will leave him unless he makes you manager of his multimillion dollar band isn't maliciously maneuvering yourself into a position of power?Hahahaha...I've heard it all now.

It could be. It is certainly a maneuvring thing. But assigning any ill-intent to it is again...wait for it....conjecture. I mean, yeah, sure, it could be she did it for personal gain foremost. She could be that evil witch who has spent the majority of her life strategically maneuviring into a position of power to abuse the trust of a guy to suck him dry and take his money. That is not impossible at all. It has happened before. But it could also be that she seriously thought Axl would be better off with her than any other manager. And I am talking about the well-being of Axl now, not what would be the best strategic decision for Guns N' Roses to make that band as large as possible. I am talking about what would make Axl's life as stress free as possible. And if so, what she did could be considered being done out of compassion for Axl, hell, I am even going to use the L word, and not because she is that evil witch who has latched onto Axl to cynically steal his money through driving GN'R into the ground, or whatever. And going on a tangent here, and because I am drunk, I have to say I find it funny that people who think Beta is in it to take Axl's money at the same time claims she is against a reunion -- which would be the greatest source of money for her. Again, here's my default disclaimer, I am not saying Beta isn't this horrible person that some people here make her out to be. Just that I find it more plausible that the problems with GN'R stems from defaults intrinsic to Axl, and that beta just tries to protect him from what makes his life worse. I am on the fence here, I don't know how Beta is. I just go with what I do know and I don't like to see all the bashing of someone not here to defend themselves.

In my book threatening to leave a person who loves and depends on you unless they restructure their business with you at the helm is never not evil, as is using somebody's deep emotional bond with you to force a person into doing what you want them to do. I'm weird that way.Also for anyone who thinks criticising this is beyond the pale, let's not forget who voluntarily made it a matter of public record. Give me a B-...

You are assinging ill-intent to something you honestly don't know the intentions behind. But this is what it all boils down to, right? One comment from Beta about her giving Axl an ultimatum. That's all you've got to paint her in this bad light.

Yes, correct. Giving someone who is emotionally attached to you an ultimatum where your continued presence in their life is dependent on a business decision like that is immoral regardless of your intent. It's forcing someone to do your bidding by trading on their love for you. It's evil. That's basically what I just said in my previous post.

Decent people don't threaten to abandon the people who love them to get what they want and they certainly don't brag about having done so.

Edited October 27, 2015 by tomfriend

[Apollo]

Haha 'social mobility'. Yeah, the social mobility of latching on to someone with mental problems and a history of abuse, convincing him you're his mother, making him dependent on you for years and then actually telling him (by her own admission!) that if he doesn't let you manage his band you'll walk?

Not that I agree with how you portray the situation -- which is conjecture for comedic effect -- but using all means necesarry to claw your way from the gutter to power, isn't all that in contradiction with the American Dream. Fact still remains that she was an immigrant with a nanny job who now leads Team Brazil, managers of a fairly large music band. That is de facto social mobility regardles of what you may think of how you believe she has done it.

None of what I posted was conjecture. I'm interested to know which aspects of it you do not think are backed up by the facts. Beta most certainly made that threat to Axl and later bragged about it to fans.

I will concede that being ruthless, cold, manipulative and heartless, stepping on someone to attain a level of power that one neither deserves or is qualified to wield could well be considered the modern version of the American Dream though. And modern America is tanking fast. A little like Axl's band.

All normal people can do is take people at their word.

Axl has called Beta his "mom" in a very public setting. Going so far as to attempt to punch somebody for bumping into his "mom."

Beta told a reporter that she told Axl she would leave him if he didn't make her the bands manager.

Beta lives in Axl's mansion.

Beta has contacted/lashed out as mods on here to have topics and posters banned when they made posts that she didn't like.

But Soulmonster is right. We shouldn't accept the words that have came out of Axl and Beta's mouths. We shouldn't believe what they have actually said. Ignore them, think of them as lying.

Instead we should take Soumonsters opinion on what he says Axl and Beta really meant.

All of us on here should be thankful that we have Soulmonster here to educate us.

Lol. You can't make this stuff up.

I don't think you are getting it. This time, either. I am not denying that Axl has referred to Beta as his mother, just the assumption that this means he actually thinks she is his mother, and the conjecture that Beta has deliberately convinced him (by trickery one would presume? Surely she must be some kind of witch ) into believing it, which was what "tomfriend" jokingly claimed. I got the joke, just pointed out that it is still based on conjecture. You, Apollo, doesn't seem to get any of this.

To be honest, I am really glad to have you here to educate the rest of us on what Axl "really" means and thinks when he says stuff.

A lot of us just take people at their word. But you seem to have a deeper relationship or understanding of the man than the rest of us.

Almost like maybe the two of you are friends in real life?

[Philipm787]

At least we now know that soulmonster is Axl's best mate, so let us know what's the story? Seeing as though you have so much insight to his life/thoughts

[SoulMonster]

Funny turn of events in a thread where my point is that we should blame Axl and not Team Brazil

Edited October 27, 2015 by SoulMonster

[maynard]

Knowing Brazilian people in general as well as I do, I wouldn't doubt Beta tried her hardest to become Axl's mother just for personal gain. Is that wrong? Evil? Depends of one's own perspective I guess...

She did emotionally blackmailed Axl in a way with the becoming the manager or leaving him thing. It might not have been as dramatic as it sounds but we can only speculate, just like most of the things that happen with GNR and which keeps this place running.

I tend to agree it's Axl who's in charge, not TB - they'll do everything to keep Axl... um... not unhappy. At the same time, they manipulate him in some ways. Didn't Axl say something like he wasn't even aware of the Apettite for Delolcracy bluray? Mark is certain they filter info and stop people from meeting Axl. So they DO have some control over him. It's a complicated situation it seems because Axl is a pathetic manchild complicated person.

Axl is responsible for surrounding himself with yes-men which affected his carreer in a very negative way IMO. Musically, Slash has been doing almost the same thing. He's comfortable, he's in charge of everything, nobody will come to his face and tell him a song sucks. That's why those two should be locked in a room together and come up with Estranged pt. 2. It's not like they are dead creatively, there's just no spark in them.

[Apollo]

Knowing Brazilian people in general as well as I do, I wouldn't doubt Beta tried her hardest to become Axl's mother just for personal gain. Is that wrong? Evil? Depends of one's own perspective I guess...

She did emotionally blackmailed Axl in a way with the becoming the manager or leaving him thing. It might not have been as dramatic as it sounds but we can only speculate, just like most of the things that happen with GNR and which keeps this place running.

I tend to agree it's Axl who's in charge, not TB - they'll do everything to keep Axl... um... not unhappy. At the same time, they manipulate him in some ways. Didn't Axl say something like he wasn't even aware of the Apettite for Delolcracy bluray? Mark is certain they filter info and stop people from meeting Axl. So they DO have some control over him. It's a complicated situation it seems because Axl is a pathetic manchild complicated person.

Axl is responsible for surrounding himself with yes-men which affected his carreer in a very negative way IMO. Musically, Slash has been doing almost the same thing. He's comfortable, he's in charge of everything, nobody will come to his face and tell him a song sucks. That's why those two should be locked in a room together and come up with Estranged pt. 2. It's not like they are dead creatively, there's just no spark in them.

Great post.

It's nice when posters can leave bias aside and use some common sense to look at the entire picture.

Axl is obviously in charge. And nobody is going to change that.

The Beta has used Axl's need for a mother figure and need to be surrounded by "yes men" to engrain her and her family into a very rich person's life.

Her family gets rich. Axl gets a paid for mother and family. NOT really any of our business. If it works for them - good for all parties involved. It's their lives, not ours.

The only way it effects us is as fans.

The Beta and Family manage our favorite singer's music career.

So all we should really care or comment on is how well they do as managers.

The fans of Axl's music are the real losers. The Beta and Family aren't going to ruin their cozy lifestyle by upsetting their gravy train. They aren't going to push Axl to become more fan friendly or to push himself with his music career.

A good manager would push Axl to release music more often. And to keep his millions of fans updated on the status of GnR.

Do you think The Beta woke up this morning and yelled at Axl "Dammit. You need to release an album in 2016. One album in the last 20 years is fucking ridiculous. These 14 songs are great. These five songs suck. Get the band together and come up with one more tune and release it.

AND you have millions of fans out there wondering WTF is up with guns n roses. You just had two members quit and everybody is speculating about a reunion. Take TWO minutes of your day and let your fans know what's up. The fans, you know, the people who spent their money to support your career so that you ended up being worth a hundred million dollars. Look around your mansion. Fans bought this. Give them a two minute update."

Do you think that's what happened this morning? Or did they wake up and talk about breakfast and who is today's guest on Oprah?

[SoulMonster]

Knowing Brazilian people in general as well as I do, I wouldn't doubt Beta tried her hardest to become Axl's mother just for personal gain. Is that wrong? Evil? Depends of one's own perspective I guess...

She did emotionally blackmailed Axl in a way with the becoming the manager or leaving him thing. It might not have been as dramatic as it sounds but we can only speculate, just like most of the things that happen with GNR and which keeps this place running.

I tend to agree it's Axl who's in charge, not TB - they'll do everything to keep Axl... um... not unhappy. At the same time, they manipulate him in some ways. Didn't Axl say something like he wasn't even aware of the Apettite for Delolcracy bluray? Mark is certain they filter info and stop people from meeting Axl. So they DO have some control over him. It's a complicated situation it seems because Axl is a pathetic manchild complicated person.

Axl is responsible for surrounding himself with yes-men which affected his carreer in a very negative way IMO. Musically, Slash has been doing almost the same thing. He's comfortable, he's in charge of everything, nobody will come to his face and tell him a song sucks. That's why those two should be locked in a room together and come up with Estranged pt. 2. It's not like they are dead creatively, there's just no spark in them.

I love that glowing endorsement of Brazilians you started off with. They truly are subhumans, right?

I don't think anyone argues about whether she gave Axl an ultimatum. I think we disagree on whether this was with ill-intent and for purely personal gain, or primarily with Axl's well-being in mind (because she saw that other managers caused him grief and stress, which she alluded to). I think both these scenarios are possible, as well as and any combination, but I find the latter more likelythan the former. Of course, then I don't know the evilness of Brazilians to such a degree of you, so I might have to accept that I am wrong

Marc has stated on a few occasions that they do act as a screen between Axl and the world beyond. To some degree I think this is probably correct. But again, is it due to them just caring for their own position or caring for Axl? That we simply don't know. We have to guess and assume. And I generally advice caution on such occasions. But with my now newfound knowledge of the wickedness of the Brazilian people, I guess it is more likely that Beta is an evil witch and not a caring "mother" to Axl who simply loves him and does what she thinks is best for him regardless of how successful she might be at that.

I fully agree with your last paragraph on surrounding themselves with yes-men (no sarcasm now!). I think this both affects their life choices and makes them too complacent and boring, but also makes their music less interesting (especially so for Slash). The best music in GN'R's history, in my humble opinion, came about as a result of 5 guys having no other alternative than to create music together in a dynamic and give-and-take process. AFD was brilliant not because of the efforts of ONE person, but the musical synergy of 5 individuals who wanted to create something together and were open for ideas that weren't their own. It blended punk, soul, swagger, stonesy riffs, and hard rock in a beautiful way.

[maynard]

2 minutes is an extrapolation exaggeration. In 10 words they could tell the fans what the fuck is going on. My guess is Axl forbids them to talk about anything. When Magisme brought Fernando to post here, Fernando sound a little frustrated about being unable to give us any updates.

[SoulMonster]

The fans of Axl's music are the real losers. The Beta and Family aren't going to ruin their cozy lifestyle by upsetting their gravy train. They aren't going to push Axl to become more fan friendly or to push himself with his music career.

I don't know if we'd be better off with other managers. Many have tried to force Axl but failed. With TB we at least have someone with the personal component and thus might be better able to on the long-term push Axl in the right direction. I dunno. Ultimately, I can never blame any managers for Axl's procratination and desire to focus on other things than releasing music. I'd be loath to say anything negative towards TB because of Axl's low productivity - I am afraid that would be unfair.

2 minutes is an extrapolation exaggeration. In 10 words they could tell the fans what the fuck is going on. My guess is Axl forbids them to talk about anything. When Magisme brought Fernando to post here, Fernando sound a little frustrated about being unable to give us any updates.

Or maybe they don't want to say anything because they know any plans they might disclose is apt to be cancelled or changed, often on short notice, and then they will just become targets of criticism for this. Of course they can't go out and say they won't disclose any plans because Axl is an unstable guy who can't be trusted and who will likely fuck any plans up, that would be highly disloyal to their client. So what choices does this leave them? Basically nothing but shutting up unless Axl orders them to do something else. To say it mildly, I don't envy them their job.

[maynard]

Knowing Brazilian people in general as well as I do, I wouldn't doubt Beta tried her hardest to become Axl's mother just for personal gain. Is that wrong? Evil? Depends of one's own perspective I guess...

She did emotionally blackmailed Axl in a way with the becoming the manager or leaving him thing. It might not have been as dramatic as it sounds but we can only speculate, just like most of the things that happen with GNR and which keeps this place running.

I tend to agree it's Axl who's in charge, not TB - they'll do everything to keep Axl... um... not unhappy. At the same time, they manipulate him in some ways. Didn't Axl say something like he wasn't even aware of the Apettite for Delolcracy bluray? Mark is certain they filter info and stop people from meeting Axl. So they DO have some control over him. It's a complicated situation it seems because Axl is a pathetic manchild complicated person.

Axl is responsible for surrounding himself with yes-men which affected his carreer in a very negative way IMO. Musically, Slash has been doing almost the same thing. He's comfortable, he's in charge of everything, nobody will come to his face and tell him a song sucks. That's why those two should be locked in a room together and come up with Estranged pt. 2. It's not like they are dead creatively, there's just no spark in them.

I love that glowing endorsement of Brazilians you started off with. They truly are subhumans, right?

I don't think anyone argues about whether she gave Axl an ultimatum. I think we disagree on whether this was with ill-intent and for purely personal gain, or primarily with Axl's well-being in mind (because she saw that other managers caused him grief and stress, which she alluded to). I think both these scenarios are possible, as well as and any combination, but I find the latter more likelythan the former. Of course, then I don't know the evilness of Brazilians to such a degree of you, so I might have to accept that I am wrong

Marc has stated on a few occasions that they do act as a screen between Axl and the world beyond. To some degree I think this is probably correct. But again, is it due to them just caring for their own position or caring for Axl? That we simply don't know. We have to guess and assume. And I generally advice caution on such occasions. But with my now newfound knowledge of the wickedness of the Brazilian people, I guess it is more likely that Beta is an evil witch and not a caring "mother" to Axl who simply loves him and does what she thinks is best for him regardless of how successful she might be at that.

I fully agree with your last paragraph on surrounding themselves with yes-men (no sarcasm now!). I think this both affects their life choices and makes them too complacent and boring, but also makes their music less interesting (especially so for Slash). The best music in GN'R's history, in my humble opinion, came about as a result of 5 guys having no other alternative than to create music together in a dynamic and give-and-take process. AFD was brilliant not because of the efforts of ONE person, but the musical synergy of 5 individuals who wanted to create something together and were open for ideas that weren't their own. It blended punk, soul, swagger, stonesy riffs, and hard rock in a beautiful way.

I said "I wouldn't doubt", not "I'm sure". Take a moment to read about Brazil's corruption, if possible try to read about something called "jeitinho brasileiro" too. There's a joke here where other countries complain to God about Brazil having all the natural resources, gorgeous landscapes, great climate and then God says: Wait til you see the kind of people I've put there.

I guess we agree on most things. You prefer to believe Beta is a good person and she does everything out of love for Axl. Some people doubt her intentions.

Nobody claims she's an evil witch like you said, guess you were trying to be funny? Good job. You must be the life of the parties you attend.

Your sense of humor is based exclusively on sarcasm so you're very predictable, SM. When you post a smiley face after one of your jokes, trust me, that's the only smiley face you'll get.

I've been studying the art of comedy for some years now and although dry humor and sarcasm might make you look superior and having a refined sense of humor, it gets boring and predictable after 5 or 6 attempts. You're on #345 by now.