Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi Discussion Thread (SPOILERS WITHIN)

[Powerage5]

10 hours ago, James Bond said:

I found Jango Fett to be quite overrated. Underwritten like many of the "would be" great characters in the prequels. However, I love the lead up to Obi Wan's battle with him when they mistake him as the Jedi who has come to inspect the clones. It's a well written scene that plays as a nice homage to spy films.

Honestly, I think everything in AOTC up through the fight on Kamino is at least passable, some of it actually good. Obi Wan and Jango's fight is great, I like the assassination mystery aspect of the first 45 mins, and I love the gritty, Blade Runner-esuqe underworld of Coruscant. It's the second and third acts that are so unbelievably shit that they ruin it for me.

 

Just like Die Another Day - promise at the beginning, but it jumps the shark so spectacularly that you're just left scratching your head.

[Dan H.]

26 minutes ago, Powerage5 said:

Honestly, I think everything in AOTC up through the fight on Kamino is at least passable, some of it actually good. Obi Wan and Jango's fight is great, I like the assassination mystery aspect of the first 45 mins, and I love the gritty, Blade Runner-esuqe underworld of Coruscant. It's the second and third acts that are so unbelievably shit that they ruin it for me.

 

Just like Die Another Day - promise at the beginning, but it jumps the shark so spectacularly that you're just left scratching your head.

Mostly agreed. There were parts in the first act that were clunky and rough, but now that i think about it you're right, the movie feels like its building to something, some kind of mystery, but then it all just falls flat on its face at Geonosis. The second acts pacing is absolutely ruined by juxtaposing Obi Wan's espionage mission with Anakin rolling around in the grass and whining about sand. 

[downzy]

You've have to wonder if, at some point, perhaps twenty to thirty years from now, they'll remake episodes I through VI.  Part of me would really like to see the prequels redone with a reworked story, better writing, better acting, and carry it over to episodes IV through VI to make everything consistent.  I figure it would be controversial, especially if they redid the original trilogy, but part of me would love to see a consistent Star Wars saga where they don't have to conform to 1970s technology.  

[Dan H.]

Theyd pretty much have to completely re-do them. They have too many deep story issues to just remake in a traditional sense.

I think that although Attack of the Clones is the least pleasant to sit through, it could be heavily re-executed and possibly retain some of the plot points with the Clone Army. Although fundamentally droids vs clones is a consequenceless war between disposable armies with no stakes, so it would be tricky.

Phantom Menance needs to be completely scrapped and have a totally fresh script. The only thing in that film that really matters is that Palpatine becomes Chancellor. Qui Gon is an okay character, but he is a plot hole and could easily be removed. Anakin should be Luke's age or older in the first film possibly already a Jedi Knight.  Ideally the Empire should rise at the end of Episode II, and Anakin should be Vadar at the beginning of Episode III for a smoother transition 

Edited January 26, 2017 by Dan H.

[DR DOOM]

10 minutes ago, downzy said:

You've have to wonder if, at some point, perhaps twenty to thirty years from now, they'll remake episodes I through VI.  Part of me would really like to see the prequels redone with a reworked story, better writing, better acting, and carry it over to episodes IV through VI to make everything consistent.  I figure it would be controversial, especially if they redid the original trilogy, but part of me would love to see a consistent Star Wars saga where they don't have to conform to 1970s technology.  

That wouldn't surprise me, you know it's pretty much inevitable.

Once all us oldtimers who grew up with just the original films are out of the picture/irrelevant, I'd almost guarantee it.

 

[DieselDaisy]

I thought the first one was the best, although I still would rate that 1/5 or 1/10 which is how low I see these three films.

[downzy]

As much as I like the original trilogy, I would trade off having those remade to get remade prequels that are good to great.  

They could actually do a trilogy prior to the prequels, telling the origins of Yoda and previous sith and jedis.  Maybe do a couple of one-offs on much older siths/jedis from thousands of years prior.  Then do the prequels, followed up with episodes IV through VI (no ewoks please).  

[DR DOOM]

12 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I thought the first one was the best, although I still would rate that 1/5 or 1/10 which is how low I see these three films.

Yeah, The Phantom Menace would be my pick of them too.

I think Revenge Of The Sith gets way too much praise, I'm not sure if I could say it's any better than Attack Of The Clones.

[DieselDaisy]

The second and third ones are just too digital for me. They are all virtually equally awful really but at least the phantom menace has the Maul chap and less digital.

[James Bond]

7 hours ago, Dan H. said:

Theyd pretty much have to completely re-do them. They have too many deep story issues to just remake in a traditional sense.

I think that although Attack of the Clones is the least pleasant to sit through, it could be heavily re-executed and possibly retain some of the plot points with the Clone Army. Although fundamentally droids vs clones is a consequenceless war between disposable armies with no stakes, so it would be tricky.

Phantom Menance needs to be completely scrapped and have a totally fresh script. The only thing in that film that really matters is that Palpatine becomes Chancellor. Qui Gon is an okay character, but he is a plot hole and could easily be removed. Anakin should be Luke's age or older in the first film possibly already a Jedi Knight.  Ideally the Empire should rise at the end of Episode II, and Anakin should be Vadar at the beginning of Episode III for a smoother transition 

I agree. I always thought it would have been best to have Anakin turn to Vader by the end of II. Have I and II strictly about him and Obi Wan with Padme and the Emperor there to pull Anakin in different directions. That'd give you an entire film to focus on his deterioration and turn to the dark side.

One nice thing about these anthology films coming out is that we actually have a chance to explore some of these things. Without necessarily remaking the films we can see a film about some important mission Obi Wan and Anakin went on or a film strictly about Vader building the Empire with Palpatine.

As much as I like the mysterious nature of Ben Kenobi in IV, I'm also in favour of Ewan McGregor's proposed Obi Wan anthology film that shows a bit of what he was up to on Tattooine between III and IV.

[Padme]

9 hours ago, Powerage5 said:

Honestly, I think everything in AOTC up through the fight on Kamino is at least passable, some of it actually good. Obi Wan and Jango's fight is great, I like the assassination mystery aspect of the first 45 mins, and I love the gritty, Blade Runner-esuqe underworld of Coruscant. It's the second and third acts that are so unbelievably shit that they ruin it for me.

 

Just like Die Another Day - promise at the beginning, but it jumps the shark so spectacularly that you're just left scratching your head.

My biggest issue is the total lack of explanation about how Count Dooku turned to the dark side. And how he became Lord Tyranus. And how come the Jedi were so naive to think the guy was just idealistic?

[luciusfunk]

Because the Jedi Order in the prequels are very naive. They didn't even believe Maul could be a Sith until he killed Qui-Gon. 

[downzy]

I also never understood how Yoda never picked up on Palpatine being a sith.  Shouldn't he be able to pick up presence of the force?  Perhaps they explain that as it's been years since I watched the prequels, but it never made any sense to me.

[AxlisOld]

Maybe it didn't make any sense because the prequels were absolute dogshit.

[Georgy Zhukov]

I've always wondered that. Palpatine is too good at shielding it? 

 

And if Anakin was so powerful, how come he didn't pick it up? Qui Gon was able to single out Anakin with his 20,000 of bullshit organisms.

 

The Jedi were fucking stupid.

[downzy]

It just seems like the Jedi were really bad at their jobs in the prequels.    

Hell, even if ROTJ, it took both Vader and Anakin to take out Darth Sidious (something Yoda couldn't do in Revenge of the Sith)

[tsinindy]

16 hours ago, Georgy Zhukov said:

I've always wondered that. Palpatine is too good at shielding it? 

 

And if Anakin was so powerful, how come he didn't pick it up? Qui Gon was able to single out Anakin with his 20,000 of bullshit organisms.

 

The Jedi were fucking stupid.

I believe this issue is talked about in the novelizations of the PT and there are two factors at play.   Someone who is a canon expert may want to correct me as I a certainly not.

but the Jedi temple was actually built on top of a Sith burial ground (un-knowingly when it was built)

And, dark side force uses can use "force stealth" to hide their intentions.  This is a power not typically used by the Jedi as it is deceptive and considered "evil" or in better terms "not good".

so, basically due to these factors Palps was able to keep his true intentions hidden.

also, I saw someone refer to Obi-Wan was mistakenly identified as the Jedi sent to inspect the clone army on Kamino.  Technically he was correctly ID'd as Dooku told them Obi Wan would be coming in a few years to inspect the clones as this was Palps vision of the future.

Edited January 27, 2017 by tsinindy

[Padme]

20 hours ago, downzy said:

I also never understood how Yoda never picked up on Palpatine being a sith.  Shouldn't he be able to pick up presence of the force?  Perhaps they explain that as it's been years since I watched the prequels, but it never made any sense to me.

Yoda said "The dark side clouds everything" In that case it was showing right there the dark side was stronger. And the Jedi were playing catch up the best they could. But it seems weird

[luciusfunk]

@tsinindy

You're correct about the Jedi Temple being built on an ancient Sith shrine. That's also why Palpatine made the Temple into his throne room. 

[James Bond]

I think it's also fair to assume that the Jedi in the prequels do sense something off since they keep mentioning it, but they can't quite put their finger on it. The audience is led to believe they sense something off with Anakin, but ultimately they were probably sensing Palpatine.

I know the EU has tried to retcon a lot of these problems but unfortunately it doesn't help clear up the confusion in the films themselves.

[downzy]

1 hour ago, James Bond said:

I know the EU has tried to retcon a lot of these problems but unfortunately it doesn't help clear up the confusion in the films themselves.

Exactly.  Luke could sense Vader in ROTJ (and vice versa).  I guess the argument there is that Vader wasn't suppressing his force.  But still, it's all very clumsy.  It just strikes me as odd that sith can cloak their dark side against supposed masters like Yoda.  

[Dan H.]

It's very clumsy. In the film they try and justify it by having Yoda say that the dark side is clouding his vision of what's going on, but it's kindof a hokey clean-up, as they could have developed that issue as a more significant plot point and explanation. It's cheap and sloppy, and makes the Jedi look like fools

[Georgy Zhukov]

A Sith Buriel ground?

 

[James Bond]

Given the material pretty much as is, this is how I think you could have fixed/tightened the prequels.

Episode 1 - Anakin as a teenager training alongside Obi Wan. Let's see more of their relationship build. We can learn a bit about Anakin's short fuse and thirst for power when he gets Obi Wan out of trouble and receives no credit for it from the Jedi Council. Show some of Anakin's mom and/or Qui Gon through some exposition or flashbacks if necessary at all. The political stuff and Palpatine can still be in the background, but the heart of the story should be Obi Wan and Anakin. Get Padme introduced too, but don't force their relationship.

Episode 2 - This can start more or less how it does. Anakin and Obi Wan assigned to protect Padme, tracking the bounty hunter, and so on. Now Anakin and Padme can start a relationship that builds naturally out of him protecting her or saving her life. Meanwhile, the Jedi Council fears that something is amiss politically. Anakin should also become Vader in this film. Knowing Anakin's dissatisfaction with the council, Palpatine seduces him by offering him the head position of his new council - the Empire. The two of them can get into some shit which leaves Anakin disfigured and requiring the suit. While he's off with Palpatine, Padme enlists Obi Wan to help track the presumed missing and/or dead Anakin. The shit that Vader and Palpatine have caused in the meantime alerts the Council to Palpatine's true intentions.

Episode 3 - Now it's time for shit to get real. Obi Wan and Darth Vader come face to face and Obi Wan finally realizes and accepts the truth that Darth Vader is their missing Anakin. This film can be focused on Vader's rise to power amidst the destruction of the Jedi Council. Obi Wan learns that Padme is pregnant and gets her to safety with the babies. They agree with the remaining Jedi that the babies should be split up so Vader can't sense them. Obi Wan heads off to Tattooine with Luke. Padme surrenders Leia to General Organa but sticks around to watch over her (so when Leia says she remembers her mother's face it's no longer an anachronism - Padme can die off screen later).

Maybe my fan logic isn't perfect, but I think that would create a better overall structure.

Episode 1 - Anakin and Obi Wan

Episode 2 - Anakin and Padme / Turn to the Dark Side

Episode 3- Destruction of the Jedi / Obi Wan and Vader confrontation

[Zeppelin]

The biggest mistake of the prequels (other than completely botching Anakin's turn to the dark side) was having Anakin start off the trilogy as a child. It handcuffed the entire trilogy. So, yes, starting Anakin off as a teenager in The Phantom Menace would've allowed for a significant improvement for pretty much every story arc.

It irks me that the prequels had so much promise, but ended up being completely unfulfilling.