Basic_GnR_Fan Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: The fact that he refuses to answer the question on whether he wants less immigration to the UK, is quite telling. He said it's a complex issue, you asked him a very generic question. Ask him some more detailed questions and stop being such a sperg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 13 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said: He said it's a complex issue, you asked him a very generic question. Ask him some more detailed questions and stop being such a sperg. I asked him whether he wants less immigration than what the UK has been having the last years. It really isn't hard to answer. It is a "yes" or a "no" or, if he feels it requires depth he could say something like, "only less muslims" or "I want more, but only Scandinavians". He did everything he could to avoid answering, and in the end just ignored the question which is very telling. It is similar to the time I suggested he is a xenophobe, to which he could easily just have denied and thus ended the discussion, but instead opted for arguing that someone who speaks Japanese and eats foreign food, can't possibly be. Basically, he prevaricates and evades hoping that people will be tricked by his non-answers or just give up pressing the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 (edited) I see valid points being made frequently by all participants in this thread. And my political lens leaves me observing that some seem to view the machinations of neo liberalism as simply a projection of what humanity itself is. Whereas to others they say "no, I am a stake holder. My humanity should inform the economy in a functioning democracy, my humanity will not be defined by neo liberal technocracy." So, in the snipey confines of an rock forum the simplest question in such a case will always be "well, which claim has teeth?" And in late stage capitalism the answer to that will always be global capital (in this case administered but the EU). Dont mean one endorses that answer. And its late stage indeed so others of us still will be working in-line with creation to emerge out of the suicidal and ecocidal corps of global capitalism. A special translation for 31illusions: We're all going to hell in a hand basket, but at least we're enjoying the ride! And I enjoy hearing about and learning from everyones pov's on this subject. Edited August 12, 2019 by soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basic_GnR_Fan Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: I asked him whether he wants less immigration than what the UK has been having the last years. It really isn't hard to answer. It is a "yes" or a "no" or, if he feels it requires depth he could say something like, "only less muslims" or "I want more, but only Scandinavians". He did everything he could to avoid answering, and in the end just ignored the question which is very telling. It is similar to the time I suggested he is a xenophobe, to which he could easily just have denied and thus ended the discussion, but instead opted for arguing that someone who speaks Japanese and eats foreign food, can't possibly be. Basically, he prevaricates and evades hoping that people will be tricked by his non-answers or just give up pressing the issue. You're trying to play gotcha. The fact that he hardly brings up immigration when he makes his Brexit case means he doesn't have the issue high on his list. I would use immigration as a main talking point for Brexit, but me and Daisy are two different people with two different worldviews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 Just now, Basic_GnR_Fan said: You're trying to play gotcha. The fact that he hardly brings up immigration when he makes his Brexit case means he doesn't have the issue high on his list. Or that he doesn't want to because he wants to make us believe his reasons are of a more lofty nature and he doesn't want to come across as the xenophobe I have suggested he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 33 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said: You guys are projecting a lot onto DD. The guy hardly brings up immigration, so I'm going to assume it isn't an interest of his. This is an anonymous message board, he has no incentive to lie lol. Errr, I think you’re confusing me with somebody else. I’ve never once mentioned immigration in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 The post Soul would like deleted, my highlighting is modern, On 6/23/2019 at 11:45 PM, DieselDaisy said: People inflate the extent of the EU's impact. Britain had European migrants from Europe centuries before we joined the European Communities in 1973, and I dare say we'll continue receiving European migrants long after withdrawal from the European Union, if Brexit actually happens - a worse case scenario would be via work visas. Further, Britain will continue to receive migrants from non-EU states; if anyone voted leave to prohibit migration, they were sadly deluded as non-EU migrants surpass EU migrants - and this is actually increasing, Reveal hidden contents The Commonwealth has of course long been, and will continue to be, a source of immigrants. 4.39% of Britain's ethnicity, the second largest category after ''White British'', is ''Asian/Asian British''. Asia (Pakistan, India, Hong Kong, etc.) has bugger all to do with the European Union haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 5 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: The post Soul would like deleted, my highlighting is modern, Why would I want it deleted? The fact that you won't prohibit migration by leaving the EU doesn't mean you can't reduce it. And by leaving the EU you are free to create your ow immigration system, likely more strict and limiting that what you are subject to now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 22 minutes ago, soon said: I see valid points being made frequently by all participants in this thread. And my political lens leaves me observing that some seem to view the machinations of neo liberalism as simply a projection of what humanity itself is. Whereas to others they say "no, I am a stake holder. My humanity should inform the economy in a functioning democracy, my humanity will not be defined by neo liberal technocracy." So, in the snipey confines of an rock forum the simplest question in such a case will always be "well, which claim has teeth?" And in late stage capitalism the answer to that will always be global capital (in this case administered but the EU). Dont mean one endorses that answer. And its late stage indeed so others of us still will be working in-line with creation to emerge out of the suicidal and ecocidal corps of global capitalism. A special translation for 31illusions: We're all going to hell in a hand basket, but at least we're enjoying the ride! And I enjoy hearing about and learning from everyones pov's on this subject. Can you do a special translation for me too? You’re too clever for me at times and I don’t like it! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 1 minute ago, SoulMonster said: Why would I want it deleted? The fact that you won't prohibit migration by leaving the EU doesn't mean you can't reduce it. And by leaving the EU you are free to create your ow immigration system, likely more strict and limiting that what you are subject to now. Because in it I am ridiculing the very notion of desiring to leave the EU to curb immigration. Your very insinuation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 Just now, DieselDaisy said: Because in it I am ridiculing the very notion of desiring to leave the EU to curb immigration. Your very insinuation. No, you stated that those who hoped that leaving the EU would prohibit all immigration, were "sadly deluded". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 @SoulMonster stop fucking banging on about immigration will you? I love you but I’ve made some bloody good arguments in this thread and nobody’s paying attention to me because of you!!!!!!! *bursts into tears and takes ball home! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: No, you stated that those who hoped that leaving the EU would prohibit all immigration, were "sadly deluded". I think that is nitpicking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, Dazey said: @SoulMonster stop fucking banging on about immigration will you? I love you but I’ve made some bloody good arguments in this thread and nobody’s paying attention to me because of you!!!!!!! *bursts into tears and takes ball home! Sorry! You have destroyed his economical arguments and made him agree that his reasons for wanting out of the EU comes from him wanting to resurrect Great Britain. But just one more! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 Wankers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 6 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Sorry! You have destroyed his economical arguments and made him agree that his reasons for wanting out of the EU comes from him wanting to resurrect Great Britain. But just one more! Return to the Union of the Crowns? You must me mistaking me for Graeme (although he is a republican). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: I think that is nitpicking. It isn't since it doesn't at all imply that your desire to leave the EU isn't also driven by wanting to reduce immigration. Again, if you don't want to reduce immigration, just say so. Just state that you are happy with the 600k that come to UK. It is that simple. And if you need to specify what nationalities you want in and who you want less of, just go nuts with details. The board is yours. Just say I am wrong and that you don't want a reduction in immigration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: Return to the Union of the Crowns? You must me mistaking me for Graeme (although he is a republican). Heh, no, I would never do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Again, if you don't want to reduce immigration, just say so. Just state that you are happy with the 600k that come to UK. It is that simple. And if you need to specify what nationalities you want in and who you want less of, just go nuts with details. The board is yours. Just say I am wrong and that you don't want a reduction in immigration. The reason this is such a flawed argument is I could quite easily say, ''kick out all of the Euro cheese eating surrender merchants including - ESPECIALLY - annoying Norwegians. Boot them all out with their naff Europop ''. Now, ''let in 600,000 people from the Commonwealth, all cricket playing countries and therefore civilised''. See? I have completely undercut the ''EU'' section of the argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 30 minutes ago, Dazey said: Can you do a special translation for me too? You’re too clever for me at times and I don’t like it! Translation: You're my fucking spirit animal!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 7 minutes ago, soon said: Translation: You're my fucking spirit animal!!! As long as I’m not a Holy Spirit Animal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: The reason this is such a flawed argument is I could quite easily say, ''kick out all of the Euro cheese eating surrender merchants including - ESPECIALLY - annoying Norwegians. Boot them all out with their naff Europop ''. Now, ''let in 600,000 people from the Commonwealth, all cricket playing countries and therefore civilised''. See? I have completely undercut the ''EU'' section of the argument. I don't mind if you undercut the EU section of the argument, just tell me that I am wrong and that you don't want less immigrants to the UK And to offset another immigration post: You once berated remainers for believing in fuzzy and lofty aspects of the EU, like - and I am paraphrasing - solidarity and togetherness and equality. How do you feel now that Dazey has destroyed your attempts at pragmatically arguing in favor of Brexit due to economy, resulting in you retreating to a position where you admit you want to leave out of similarly intangible reasons? Edited August 12, 2019 by SoulMonster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: You once berated remainers for believing in fuzzy and lofty aspects of the EU, like - and I am paraphrasing - solidarity and togetherness and equality. How do you feel now that Dazey has destroyed your attempts at pragmatically arguing in favor of Brexit due to economy, resulting in you retreating to a position where you admit you want to leave out of similarly intangible reasons? There is nothing ''fuzzy'' or ''intangible'' - ''lofty'', maybe? - about what I wrote though! Common Law and parliamentary sovereignty are not ''fuzzy'' in the slightest and very tangible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: There is nothing ''fuzzy'' or ''intangible'' - ''lofty'', maybe? - about what I wrote though! Common Law and parliamentary sovereignty are not ''fuzzy'' in the slightest and very tangible. You weren't able to answer this question from Dazey: "I'd just like you to give an example of what actual tangible changes you expect to see personally in your life from regaining "democracy, sovereignty, law, accountability, identity" as you put it. These are all lovely buzz words but very vague on actual detail. What is it about a supposed lack of sovereignty at this time that causes you grief on a daily basis and what fundamental changes in that area do you expect to see from November 1st?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 Just now, SoulMonster said: You weren't able to answer this question from Dazey: "I'd just like you to give an example of what actual tangible changes you expect to see personally in your life from regaining "democracy, sovereignty, law, accountability, identity" as you put it. These are all lovely buzz words but very vague on actual detail. What is it about a supposed lack of sovereignty at this time that causes you grief on a daily basis and what fundamental changes in that area do you expect to see from November 1st?" Correction. I chose not to answer. I could do. I could write a verbose description on, ''the development of Lockean parliamentarian sovereignty'', vis-à-vis ''continental autocracy and revolution'', about ''how Britain is an outwardly maritime/trading nation'', and not a segment of some form of ''closed continental bloc'', but I simply believe we see the world so completely differently that it would be worthless. I explained this of course but you chose to omit that portion. The best way I can put it is, the question(s) he asks isn't even the question(s) that interests me - and I suspect it's vice versa. (Although I don't for a second believe in the level of scaremongering/project fear he and many remainers subscribe to.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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