British Politics

[Padme]

1 hour ago, Dazey said:

To be fair to Farage the Queen Mother was a ghastly gin soaked old bigot.  

But she had to deal with WWII, and the bombs falling over London. On top of that her husband death at a young age. I can give her a pass on everything. Prince Phillip is a lot worst anyway

[MillionsOfSpiders]

That’s brave of Farage, waiting until he is in Australia to slag off the royals 

(I kind of agree with him though on this -ewwww) 

[DieselDaisy]

57 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

It is a simply question, do you want less immigrants to the UK than the average since year 2000 of about 600,000 per year?

It is such a stupid question as it does not consider whether or not we are discussing EU ''citizens'' (such as myself) who by default are allowed to live and work in the United Kingdom in accordance with the four freedoms, or extra-European migration. It also fails to consider migrants from outside the European Union.

[DieselDaisy]

What a fundamentally silly pair you two are. I have listed about 20 reasons why I dislike the EU and desire to withdraw from its supranationalism, and you two, Dazey and Soul, instead prefer to droll on about two aspects which are either absent entirely from my reasoning, or, if they're present, are certainly lower down the pecking order! Not one peep out of you about the EU's democratic-deficit, red-tape, neo-liberalism, corporate sleaze, constitutional confusion, endemic waste, etc etc. Instead, it is Soul's straw man about migrants and Dazey harping-on about whether he'll have an extra fiver in his back pocket.

[soon]

I do hope that if Dr Soulie and Duke Dies ever put a ring on it that they would consider me to serve as their officiant?

[SoulMonster]

12 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

It is such a stupid question as it does not consider whether or not we are discussing EU ''citizens'' (such as myself) who by default are allowed to live and work in the United Kingdom in accordance with the four freedoms, or extra-European migration. It also fails to consider migrants from outside the European Union.

The question is still if you want less immigration to the UK than what you are receiving as part of the EU. Since you tellingly refuse to answer this simple question, I have pointed out that you receive about 600k annually and asked if you want less than this. Now you refuse to answer unless you know where they come from *looking it up* Okay, let's say that 400k of them are non-EU and 200k are from the EU countries, which is the more or less what you received last year. So do you want less immigration than this or not? And if you now insist on breaking down these two groups into individual nationalities, indicating that you have a very specific immigration objective in mind, then I suggest you just say what you want.

[SoulMonster]

12 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

What a fundamentally silly pair you two are. I have listed about 20 reasons why I dislike the EU and desire to withdraw from its supranationalism, and you two, Dazey and Soul, instead prefer to droll on about two aspects which are either absent entirely from my reasoning, or, if they're present, are certainly lower down the pecking order! 

The fact that you obviously want out of the EU partly to lessen immigration to the UK, but choose not to make a point out of this in all your hundreds of indignant posts about the EU, is in itself a good topic for discussion. Is it a conscious decision because you want to hide the fact that you don't like foreigners? It is of course an entirely valid thing to want to reduce immigration, and that alone doesn't make you into a racist - I just speculate why you are not being honest about it. Afraid we will think that the other 20 reasons that you keep harping on about and out of which many are ridiculous, are more of a vicariate nature to disguise your true reasons?

[DieselDaisy]

2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

The question is still if you want less immigration to the UK than what you are receiving as part of the EU. Since you tellingly refuse to answer this simple question, I have pointed out that you receive about 600k annually and asked if you want less than this. Now you refuse to answer unless you know where they come from *looking it up* Okay, let's say that 400k of them are non-EU and 200k are from the EU countries, which is the more or less what you received last year. So do you want less immigration than this or not? And if you now insist on breaking down these two groups into individual nationalities, indicating that you have a very specific immigration objective in mind, then I suggest you just say what you want.

You are acting as if all types of migration should be lumped into one category, that there are not great differences but just one category. Thus we are supposed to amalgamate a doctor from Australia, with a Syrian refugee escaping war, with somebody from Italy or Germany say excising their right under ''the four freedoms'', with...

With your question there is one big category: ''migrant''!

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

You are acting as if all types of migration should be lumped into one category, that there are not great differences but just one category. Thus we are supposed to amalgamate a doctor from Australia, with a Syrian refugee escaping war, with somebody from Italy or Germany say excising their right under ''the four freedoms'', with...

With your question there is one big category: ''migrant''!

 

8 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

And if you now insist on breaking down these two groups into individual nationalities, indicating that you have a very specific immigration objective in mind, then I suggest you just say what you want.

 

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

22 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

What a fundamentally silly pair you two are. I have listed about 20 reasons why I dislike the EU and desire to withdraw from its supranationalism, and you two, Dazey and Soul, instead prefer to droll on about two aspects which are either absent entirely from my reasoning, or, if they're present, are certainly lower down the pecking order! Not one peep out of you about the EU's democratic-deficit, red-tape, neo-liberalism, corporate sleaze, constitutional confusion, endemic waste, etc etc. Instead, it is Soul's straw man about migrants and Dazey harping-on about whether he'll have an extra fiver in his back pocket.

They just want to call you a racist, man!

[DieselDaisy]

3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

The fact that you obviously want out of the EU partly to lessen immigration to the UK, but choose not to make a point out of this in all your hundreds of indignant posts about the EU, is in itself a good topic for discussion. Is it a conscious decision because you want to hide the fact that you don't like foreigners? It is of course an entirely valid thing to want to reduce immigration, and that alone doesn't make you into a racist - I just speculate why you are not being honest about it. Afraid we will think that the other 20 reasons that you keep harping on about and out of which many are ridiculous, are more of a vicariate nature to disguise your true reasons?

There are quite a few Brexiteers who would give you a good argument on this you know, as certainly the immigration debate was a motive behind withdrawing? But in regards to me, it is the ultimate of all your straw men this one. You are trying to start an argument with a brick wall.

Heck, my original position that it would have been better to withdraw and remain in the ESM, either through the EFTA or bilaterally, is a lot softer than the Australian points system advocated by most Brexiteers. Why the heck are you picking on me?

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

They just want to call you a racist, man!

I think it is his own prejudice that is leading him into this blind alley. Soul, like many of our Brit remainers, thinks all Brexiteers are racist/xenophobic country yokels. The idea of somebody analysing the European Union, which is what I have done, and forming an argument against it for very different reasons as the ones supplied by his prejudices, is I suppose something he cannot fathom. It is his weakness. 

[SoulMonster]

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

 Why the heck are you picking on me?

I suggested you have an ulterior motive for wanting to leave EU: to reduce immigration into the EU. You argue that this is not something you have ever stated. I counter that you don't want to state it because you don't want people to know, and I encourage you to just explicitly say you are fine with the immigration you are having as part of the EU. You refuse to answer and instead insist that I detail the immigration. I point out you receive about 600k of immigrants per year. You say that not all immigrant are the same and wants it broken down into nationalities. I point out that if you have such a specific idea o the ideal type of immigration, you might as well just state it. You claim I am picking on you.

How can anyone not conclude you want to reduce the amount of immigration?

What you should have done, was just be upfront about it but say it is of much less importance to you than the other 20 reasons you have. And even, maybe, point out that you speak foreign food proving that your desire to reduce immigration isn't because of racism or xenophobia.

[Dazey]

27 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

What a fundamentally silly pair you two are. I have listed about 20 reasons why I dislike the EU and desire to withdraw from its supranationalism, and you two, Dazey and Soul, instead prefer to droll on about two aspects which are either absent entirely from my reasoning, or, if they're present, are certainly lower down the pecking order! Not one peep out of you about the EU's democratic-deficit, red-tape, neo-liberalism, corporate sleaze, constitutional confusion, endemic waste, etc etc. Instead, it is Soul's straw man about migrants and Dazey harping-on about whether he'll have an extra fiver in his back pocket.

In all your ramblings on the subject you seem to care the least about the most important factor that will actually impact working people in real terms is very telling. 

"EU's democratic-deficit, red-tape, neo-liberalism, corporate sleaze, constitutional confusion, endemic waste, etc etc" have pretty much no bearing on people's day to day lives. I can guarantee that you will see fuck all difference in your day to day life in relation to any of those things post October 31st yet real working people will certainly see a change in their fortunes from an economic perspective so bizarrely enough that's my main concern.

[SoulMonster]

3 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I think it is his own prejudice that is leading him into this blind alley. Soul, like many of our Brit remainers, thinks all Brexiteers are racist/xenophobic country yokels. 

No. Just some of them.

As I have said numerous times, there are many good reasons to be critical of the EU (you have mentioned many of them) and I wouldn't dare to question a random Brexiter's motives. But you aren't any random Brexiteer. In your case I believe the real reason, or at least one of the strong motives that fuels your passion, is that you are not particularly fond of foreigners.

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, Dazey said:

In all your ramblings on the subject you seem to care the least about the most important factor that will actually impact working people in real terms is very telling. 

"EU's democratic-deficit, red-tape, neo-liberalism, corporate sleaze, constitutional confusion, endemic waste, etc etc" have pretty much no bearing on people's day to day lives. I can guarantee that you will see fuck all difference in your day to day life in relation to any of those things post October 31st yet real working people will certainly see a change in their fortunes from an economic perspective so bizarrely enough that's my main concern.

I completely disagree on every count.

[Dazey]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

I completely disagree on every count.

So giving Boris and his cronies unfettered power free of EU regulation is going to deal with "democratic-deficit, red-tape, neo-liberalism, corporate sleaze, constitutional confusion, endemic waste, etc etc" is it? I call bollocks! 

You've already said that you have no family or financial obligations to speak of so I can get why you don't care about fucking the country over financially. I just think it's profoundly ignorant.

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, Dazey said:

So giving Boris and his cronies unfettered power free of EU regulation is going to deal with "democratic-deficit, red-tape, neo-liberalism, corporate sleaze, constitutional confusion, endemic waste, etc etc" is it? I call bollocks! 

You've already said that you have no family or financial obligations to speak of so I can get why you don't care about fucking the country over financially. I just think it's profoundly ignorant.

You are putting (short term) profit over basically everything else, democracy, sovereignty, law, accountability, identity. 

[Dazey]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

You are putting (short term) profit over basically everything else, democracy, sovereignty, law, accountability, identity. 

I'm putting economic stability and people's livelihoods over your Little Englander fantasy of a return to the British Empire's glory days. 

"democracy, sovereignty, law, accountability, identity" is just waffle. We have all of those things already with slight concessions in some areas to allow us to trade freely with the largest trading entity in the world.

[DieselDaisy]

3 minutes ago, Dazey said:

I'm putting economic stability and people's livelihoods over your Little Englander fantasy of a return to the British Empire's glory days. 

"democracy, sovereignty, law, accountability, identity" is just waffle. We have all of those things already with slight concessions in some areas to allow us to trade freely with the largest trading entity in the world.

I just see life completely different from you - I'm sorry. I thoroughly disagree with all this and naturally could reply to this if you desire, but we are such different people that it is like two different records (LPs) running side by side. 

Edited August 12, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

I just see life completely different from you - I'm sorry. I thoroughly disagree with all this and naturally could reply to this if you desire, but we are such different people that it is like two different records (LPs) running side by side. 

And as has become abundantly clear, you also consider the ability to reduce immigration to the UK important. 

[Dazey]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

I just see life completely different from you - I'm sorry. I thoroughly disagree with all this and naturally could reply to this if you desire, but we are such different people that it is like two different records (LPs) running side by side. 

I'd just like you to give an example of what actual tangible changes you expect to see personally in your life from regaining "democracy, sovereignty, law, accountability, identity" as you put it.

These are all lovely buzz words but very vague on actual detail. What is it about a supposed lack of sovereignty at this time that causes you grief on a daily basis and what fundamental changes in that area do you expect to see from November 1st? 

[DieselDaisy]

7 minutes ago, Dazey said:

I'd just like you to give an example of what actual tangible changes you expect to see personally in your life from regaining "democracy, sovereignty, law, accountability, identity" as you put it.

These are all lovely buzz words but very vague on actual detail. What is it about a supposed lack of sovereignty at this time that causes you grief on a daily basis and what fundamental changes in that area do you expect to see from November 1st? 

How you see things is completely different to how I see things. It is like two people arguing different arguments, neither of them answering the other, because they see things completely different. As a student of history, one who has studied British parliamentary history closely, I'm naturally going to place a rather large emphasis on safeguarding the supremacy of British law and the constitution. It is inherent with me. The historian in me is a vital piece of who I am. You however come from a technical-sciencey (?) background so you see things in a more pragmatic (''how will it benefit me personally, or otherwise?'') way.

Edited August 12, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

51 minutes ago, Dazey said:

In all your ramblings on the subject you seem to care the least about the most important factor that will actually impact working people in real terms is very telling. 

"EU's democratic-deficit, red-tape, neo-liberalism, corporate sleaze, constitutional confusion, endemic waste, etc etc" have pretty much no bearing on people's day to day lives. I can guarantee that you will see fuck all difference in your day to day life in relation to any of those things post October 31st yet real working people will certainly see a change in their fortunes from an economic perspective so bizarrely enough that's my main concern.

You guys are projecting a lot onto DD. The guy hardly brings up immigration, so I'm going to assume it isn't an interest of his. This is an anonymous message board, he has no incentive to lie lol. 

[SoulMonster]

3 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

You guys are projecting a lot onto DD. The guy hardly brings up immigration, so I'm going to assume it isn't an interest of his. This is an anonymous message board, he has no incentive to lie lol. 

The fact that he refuses to answer the question on whether he wants less immigration to the UK, is quite telling.