British Politics

[Padme]

It's official now. May defeated and no Norway. Where do we go? Where do we go now? 

[downzy]

Maybe this thread is a precursor to what life in the UK will be like after Brexit?  Maybe everyone will have to fuck on camera or livestream to make ends meet?

May got her teeth kicked in with that vote.  Unless she comes back with another deal in three days (not going to happen), this government is over.  

Only thing left to do now is rescind Article 50 and withdraw their withdrawal notice.  Or at least, hold another referendum before completely jumping off the cliff.  Because the fantasy bullshit the leave campaign peddled ain't going to pass.  The UK is fucked if they leave without a deal with the EU.  

2016 was definitely an off year for Democracy.  Not sure what was the biggest fuck up, the vote to leave EU under delusions of grandeur or the vote to make America's biggest dick the President.  Guess we'll have to let the game play out on both sides to see who wins loses.

[Dazey]

1 hour ago, downzy said:

Maybe this thread is a precursor to what life in the UK will be like after Brexit?  Maybe everyone will have to fuck on camera or livestream to make ends meet?

May got her teeth kicked in with that vote.  Unless she comes back with another deal in three days (not going to happen), this government is over.  

The problem is that it's not over. May will win the no confidence vote tomorrow and she won't call either a second referendum or a general election. She'll remain in power until after Brexit is settled is my prediction. There isn't sufficient desire within her own party to get rid of her and the opposition are hopeless. It's gonna be a total shitshow and we're leaving with no deal in the absence of a miracle. 

[downzy]

41 minutes ago, Dazey said:

The problem is that it's not over. May will win the no confidence vote tomorrow and she won't call either a second referendum or a general election. She'll remain in power until after Brexit is settled is my prediction. There isn't sufficient desire within her own party to get rid of her and the opposition are hopeless. It's gonna be a total shitshow and we're leaving with no deal in the absence of a miracle. 

Good thing you live in a country where politics makes sense

 

[Dazey]

[Len Cnut]

1 hour ago, downzy said:

 

 

 

[DieselDaisy]

8 hours ago, downzy said:

Maybe this thread is a precursor to what life in the UK will be like after Brexit?  Maybe everyone will have to fuck on camera or livestream to make ends meet?

May got her teeth kicked in with that vote.  Unless she comes back with another deal in three days (not going to happen), this government is over.  

Only thing left to do now is rescind Article 50 and withdraw their withdrawal notice.  Or at least, hold another referendum before completely jumping off the cliff.  Because the fantasy bullshit the leave campaign peddled ain't going to pass.  The UK is fucked if they leave without a deal with the EU.  

2016 was definitely an off year for Democracy.  Not sure what was the biggest fuck up, the vote to leave EU under delusions of grandeur or the vote to make America's biggest dick the President.  Guess we'll have to let the game play out on both sides to see who wins loses.

There is a 52% plebiscitary mandate to leave! Annulling Brexit would be a defeat for democracy and certainly see a proliferation of the far-right. 

[SoulMonster]

With only 52 % in favor in the last referendum and indications that people have changed their opinion, it seems to me it makes sense to go for a new referendum. It would be wrong to continue with the Brexit if people have changed their minds.

[Padme]

2 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

There is a 52% plebiscitary mandate to leave! Annulling Brexit would be a defeat for democracy and certainly see a proliferation of the far-right. 

52% was the number two and a half years ago. We don't know if today that 52% is still there. After the referendum there was a general election. The Tories didn't win by a landslide. The prediction was that Labour was dead. The result showed the main party behind Brexit UKIP was dead. Where is the proliferation of the far right? There is no way to know how big the far right is unless there is another general election, a second referendum or both.

[DieselDaisy]

1 hour ago, Padme said:

52% was the number two and a half years ago. We don't know if today that 52% is still there. After the referendum there was a general election. The Tories didn't win by a landslide. The prediction was that Labour was dead. The result showed the main party behind Brexit UKIP was dead. Where is the proliferation of the far right? There is no way to know how big the far right is unless there is another general election, a second referendum or both.

We don't know if today that 52% is still there.

We don't know if tomorrow that 52% is still there.

We don't know if in ten years' time that 52% is still there.

We don't know if in twenty years' time that 52% is still there.

Hence the declamation that 2016 was an once in a lifetime vote. What part of ''once in a lifetime'' do remainers not understand - they after all advocated it just as much as leavers did?

The far-right are already stirring, https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2019/jan/08/nazi-fascist-pro-brexit-group-targets-mp-and-journalist-outside-parliament-video-report

Rescinding the 52% would certainly be a denial of democracy and hence represent an entire loss of faith in our political system. 

[DieselDaisy]

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

With only 52 % in favor in the last referendum and indications that people have changed their opinion, it seems to me it makes sense to go for a new referendum. It would be wrong to continue with the Brexit if people have changed their minds.

It was billed by both pro-EU and Skeptic alike as a ''once in a lifetime'' vote, not a ''once, but then we'll vote again later just to make sure vote''. And there is contrary evidence that in fact a second referendum would produce a greater ''leave'' vote. Careful what you wish for (as the saying goes).

[Lio]

I am against Brexit, but Diesel's right. You can't hold a referendum every two years and keep on changing your mind. They got the chance to choose, they've chosen. And that's it. And how many have changed their opinion really? Who can tell?

[SoulMonster]

18 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

It was billed by both pro-EU and Skeptic alike as a ''once in a lifetime'' vote, not a ''once, but then we'll vote again later just to make sure vote''. And there is contrary evidence that in fact a second referendum would produce a greater ''leave'' vote. Careful what you wish for (as the saying goes).

I think the idea is to make sure that Brexit actually has the required majority. I have seen some polls indicating it doesn't. It would be unfortunate to go through with a Brexit if people actually don't want it, especially since so much has happened since the first referendum and since I am sure the British people are now more cognizant of the pros and cons and what the alternatives are. It is not very democratic to hold on to a referendum decision that doesn't reflect the current opinion of the people. And if it turns out that the majority still wants to leave the EU, then that is perfect. And if it turns out that the majority doesn't want to now, then that is perfect too. The point is to adhere to what people currently think.

Edited January 16, 2019 by SoulMonster

[Padme]

24 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

We don't know if today that 52% is still there.

We don't know if tomorrow that 52% is still there.

We don't know if in ten years' time that 52% is still there.

We don't know if in twenty years' time that 52% is still there.

Hence the declamation that 2016 was an once in a lifetime vote. What part of ''once in a lifetime'' do remainers not understand - they after all advocated it just as much as leavers did?

The far-right are already stirring, https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2019/jan/08/nazi-fascist-pro-brexit-group-targets-mp-and-journalist-outside-parliament-video-report

Rescinding the 52% would certainly be a denial of democracy and hence represent an entire loss of faith in our political system. 

Where is the act of Parliament saying it has to be a once in a lifetime vote? Even if there is suck a thing. That doesn't show too much respect for democracy either. People can change their minds. It's been more than 2 years since the referendum. A lot of water under the bridge since that day. The deadline is March 29th. Keep all the options open until that day arrives.

There will always be groups of fascist. Are they millions?

[Padme]

24 minutes ago, Lio said:

I am against Brexit, but Diesel's right. You can't hold a referendum every two years and keep on changing your mind. They got the chance to choose, they've chosen. And that's it. And how many have changed their opinion really? Who can tell?

Back in 2016 the population was misinformed with silly slogans like Take Back Control. They believed lies populist politicians told them. People didn't know they were going to have to pay a 40 billion pounds divorce bill. They didn't know about the problem with the N.I. border. They didn't know banks and companies were willing to move to France and Germany. They didn't know about WTO tariffs. They didn't know their currency was going to be almost wothless. On top of that just take a look at the political turmoil. What is the benefit of Brexit? Nobody knows.

[Len Cnut]

1 hour ago, Padme said:

Back in 2016 the population was misinformed with silly slogans like Take Back Control. They believed lies populist politicians told them. People didn't know they were going to have to pay a 40 billion pounds divorce bill. They didn't know about the problem with the N.I. border. They didn't know banks and companies were willing to move to France and Germany. They didn't know about WTO tariffs. They didn't know their currency was going to be almost wothless.

Surely then its the populations fault for voting on shit they didn't know fuck all about.  Because there's always disinformation about, isn't there?  I mean by definition if you have two options to pick from one sides gonna be singing up one option and the other side singing up the other, if you believed the cunts and took the cunt path well thats your look out, should've been more savvy.  These sorts of notions lend themselves more to anti-democratic notions than anything, because the insinuation is that the public are too thick to know whats best for them, as evidenced by the fact that they got blagged into voting for a big nothing with fuck evidence.  I mean there was more than one opposing voice to the idea of Brexit, its not like there was some sort of media blackout on the anti-Brexit position, end of the day you can't point the finger at someone else if you (and by you i mean we, we the people, not you personally) were stupid enough to believe the bullshit and vote for the bullshit option.

[Len Cnut]

Y'know what, it fuckin' serves us right as well.  We're always so superior in this country, reckon we fuckin' know it all and everyone else is all thick, well if this cracks on as it appears it shall then we're gonna have a long ol' while smelling exactly what we've been shovelling all this time.  And y'know what, probably a great many still won't learn. 

[Padme]

2 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

I haven't been following the situation closely, if any of you who have been can be bothered, make a bullet list of pros and/or cons for Brexit. If you're incapable of doing that then it's safe to say you've been swept up into a noisy mess and are blindly picking sides.

What I do know is this; one of the main mission statements/goals of the EU is leading to a one world government. That would be catastrophic. Sounds like a conspiracy thing - it's not, they've openly stated this multiple times. I also know that if someone(in this case the EU) is saying in a negotiation/partnership "TICK TOCK TICK TOCK change your mind to what we want or fuck you we'll watch you drown." - they probably don't have the interests of the British people at heart. That is the stance of someone trying to fuck you over. 

 All members of the EU have their own PMs or Presidents and their own Parliaments. They have plenty of power over their own nations. The EU also has a Parliament. All countries members of the EU send representatives to that Parliament. There is no one guy who comes up with some crazy law. Nobody was forced to be a member. In fact there are countries that are not members. Some countries have the Euro as their currency but other don't just like the UK. 

You can travel from Spain to Germany. And you don't need a visa nor there is customs. If you want to move from Poland to Belgium because you found a good job opportunuity. You can and you're not an illegal immigrant. There are students programs like Erasmus

[Lio]

12 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

I haven't been following the situation closely, if any of you who have been can be bothered, make a bullet list of pros and/or cons for Brexit. If you're incapable of doing that then it's safe to say you've been swept up into a noisy mess and are blindly picking sides.

What I do know is this; one of the main mission statements/goals of the EU is leading to a one world government. That would be catastrophic. Sounds like a paranoid conspiracy thing - it's not, they've openly stated this multiple times. I also know that if someone(in this case the EU) is saying in a negotiation/partnership "TICK TOCK TICK TOCK change your mind to what we want or fuck you we'll watch you drown." - they probably don't have the interests of the British people at heart. That is the stance of someone trying to fuck you over. 

I hope you realize a hard Brexit will not only have consequences for Brits, but also for a lot of people in the EU who depend on trade with the UK. A hard Brexit will be bad news for everyone. Small businesses dealing with the UK will have to jump through a lot of hoops to be able to do their trade. So it's not exactly as if the EU will enjoy watching the UK drown, as you put it. No one will win.

Also, Europe has been crippled by war twice in the previous century. We've had peace now for over 70 years. I know a lot of things go wrong in the EU, but I'm still a strong defender of the principle.

[Lio]

27 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

1. Okay, but why?

2. Again, why? Why is it all or nothing? Why can't you have sound, efficient, good trade deals and be friends/allies without the EU?

3. Peace sells...but who's buyin'?

Consolidation of power is the consolidation of corruption and all the evil humanity has to offer. A global governing bureaucracy would be up there with other catastrophes like A.I. or a meteor wiping us out.

 

It's not all or nothing. The EU doesn't say it's all or nothing. May made a deal with the EU about that. Parliament said no to it. This is hard Brexit versus soft Brexit. If there is no deal, there is no soft Brexit.

Having grandparents that have been in the war and seeing lots of remnants and knowing what the war has done, I know there are a lot of people buying peace. Then again, we've been overrun by our neighbours throughout history. We've been French, Spanish, Dutch, Austrian and the list goes on. Maybe it's easier for me to see the advantages of being in a union than when you live on an island at the other side of the world.

[Lio]

7 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

What's a hard Brexit and what's a soft Brexit? What would doing what I think should be done; leaving the EU staving off rampant bureaucracy but establishing new, good deals and partnerships as sovereign countries be classified as?
 

That would be a soft Brexit. But as there is no deal as of now, chances are it will be a hard Brexit.

[Lio]

19 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

So a hard Brexit is leaving the EU and all trade, diplomatic, strategic etc dealings are abandoned?

That won't happen and if anyone says it will I think they're lying and fearmongering.

Maybe you should read up on it a bit I'm sure this will be more accurate and clearer than me.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/16/eu-nations-no-deal-preparations-may-brexit-defeat

[Dazey]

1 hour ago, Oldest Goat said:

So a hard Brexit is leaving the EU and all trade, diplomatic, strategic etc dealings are abandoned?

That won't happen and if anyone says it will I think they're lying and fearmongering.

That's exactly what will happen.

[downzy]

10 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

There is a 52% plebiscitary mandate to leave! Annulling Brexit would be a defeat for democracy and certainly see a proliferation of the far-right. 

Ever been sky diving?  I have.  And you're asked multiple times whether you want to proceed before you actually jump.

There are risks on both sides, but at this point I think it's prudent to run another referendum and ask whether people want to stay or leave knowing that no deal will be in place before the March deadline.  

Many of the pro-leave side were sad political opportunists who promoted something that was nothing more than a fantasy (all the gains, non of the drawbacks).  Now that most people are waking up to the bullshit that was sold to them, shouldn't they be given the opportunity to change their minds?  Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson pushed this nonsense and when it came time to lead the charge they backed away and left those who favoured staying to clean up the mess.

As @SoulMonster suggested, if a majority still wants to leave, then fine, have at it.  But let's not kid ourselves that the 2016 referendum was decided by a lot that knew what the fuck they were doing.

Further rise of the far-right is a concern, but the immediate concern is the economic tsunami that will most certainly hit Britain should they stumble out of the EU.  That kind of economic calamity would certainly be breeding grounds for sinister forces.  

[downzy]

37 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Betcha it won't.

It might not in the long run, but trade deals take a long time, in most cases years, to negotiate.  The notion that something could be scrapped together in the remaining two months is fantasy.  We don't really know how hard-line EU will be with respect to the contents and timeframe of a new trade deal, but it's a good bet that it will take awhile.  Regardless of how much pain it might cause, the greater concern is giving Britain an easy out of the EU that would set a precedent and could setup the total disintegration of the EU entirely.  

The other major issue is the Ireland border.  A hard exit will likely cause major strain between the North and the South and could very well bring back sectarian violence that economic integration has certainly helped to dissipate over the years.  

If you think a hard Brexit is no big deal, you're not paying attention.