Another US Gun Massacre - 27 Dead in Texas Church

[SoulMonster]

16 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

 I imagine if they made gun retail more stringent it would still be incredibly easy to steal your grandaddy's shotgun, such is the prevalence of firearms. (I do not see how gun control would work in the slightest to be honest).

By making it less easy to buy guns you'd reduce the growth in guns in the US. That would be good. To reduce the number of guns it is common to have periods if amnesty where people can give up their guns, possible for payouts. 

This works. Some people may be less interested in this in the US than elsewhere, others wouldn't. Less guns in society would be the end result. 

[DieselDaisy]

50 minutes ago, Dazey said:

So your argument is basically that nothing will ever work so there's no point even trying?

Yes. You, and in answer to Soul also, are simply unable to bottle-up the guns and gun culture in the United States. Even more stringent retail laws will barely make a dent. 

[Ace Nova]

46 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

By making it less easy to buy guns you'd reduce the growth in guns in the US. That would be good. To reduce the number of guns it is common to have periods if amnesty where people can give up their guns, possible for payouts. 

This works. Some people may be less interested in this in the US than elsewhere, others wouldn't. Less guns in society would be the end result. 

Gun laws in Scandanavian  countries are pretty strict, I assume?

How hard is it to get a gun illegally over there....off of the street, as they say? 

[DieselDaisy]

Scandinavia? Anyone remember Anders Breivik.

[SoulMonster]

3 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Gun laws in Scandanavian  countries are pretty strict, I assume?

How hard is it to get a gun illegally over there....off of the street, as they say? 

It is stricter than US but not too difficult. Our own mass murderer, Breivik, struggled to get his hands on his weapons. At the same time we have a huge hunting culture, and hunting weapons, rifles and shotguns are all over. But military style weapons are not seen. If we had a problem with gun violence we'd probably have to restrict access even further, but as it is, Norway is pretty peaceful. 

[DieselDaisy]

Breivik has first class lodgings I heard. 

[SoulMonster]

37 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Breivik has first class lodgings I heard. 

He has more or less the same as other inmates, except he enjoy it in solitude, for the rest of his life. 

[Len Cnut]

40 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Breivik has first class lodgings I heard. 

He had a moan on recently if I'm not mistaken, about not getting like...some kind of fuckin' freedoms or something, like they was violating his human rights.

[DieselDaisy]

I heard he has playstations and whores.

[Len Cnut]

4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I heard he has playstations and whores.

Well you can't expect him to go the rest of his life on one player, can you?

[Ace Nova]

36 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

He has more or less the same as other inmates, except he enjoy it in solitude, for the rest of his life. 

He was sentenced to 21 years and could be released as soon as 10 years....for slaughtering over 70 people....

And he apparently sued the Norweigian Government and won at least part of his lawsuit....and the judge ordered the Norweigian Government to pay for his legal fees. 

Edited November 7, 2017 by Kasanova King

[DieselDaisy]

Being bummed up the arse and awarding those who have done the bumming in the interests of being thought of as 'progressive' is the Scandinavian way; that is basically the history of the place during the Second World War encapsulated.

[-W.A.R-]

So negligence led to this guy being able to obtain his gun legally and a NRA member with an AR of his own was able stop it from being even worse?

[downzy]

39 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

He was sentenced to 21 years and could be released as soon as 10 years....for slaughtering over 70 people....

And he apparently sued the Norweigian Government and won at least part of his lawsuit....and the judge ordered the Norweigian Government to pay for his legal fees. 

Breivik will never see the light of day when it comes to being released from jail.  Many developed nations do not have lifetime sentencing.  They have maximum sentencing (generally limited to 20 to 25 years) but prisoners can be kept in prison for the rest of their lives if deemed a threat to society.  Here in Canada we have several infamous murderers who were given the maximum punishment of 25 years.  There is very little chance they will ever be released.

As for the arguments that Norway and other Scandinavian countries have it wrong with respect to how it treats its prison population, you might want to look at the data.  If the concern is to reduce overall crime by lowering recidivism, Norway does a far better job than the US.  

I implore people to read this relatively short article that contrasts the Norway approach to handling criminals to the rest of the world: https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/hurt-the-criminal-or-hurt-the-crime/article4210029/

As the title of the article points out, a society can choose between hurting the criminal or hurting the crime.  Coming down hard on criminals has proven not to be an effective means for lowering overall crime rates, unless you're willing to lock up anyone and everyone for certain crimes for the rest of their lives.  Since the US already incarcerates more people per capita than about any other developed nation but sees higher crime rates as a whole, perhaps the tough on criminals approach should be reconsidered.  

[soon]

^^^^ that plus, long periods in a NA jail will make many people more dangerous, not less.  It will make many people less fit for society in general.  I assume thats the case in many Nations.

[downzy]

2 hours ago, Dazey said:

So your argument is basically that nothing will ever work so there's no point even trying?

The Democratic Congressmen that represents Sutherland Springs (who is also funded by the NRA) went on air yesterday and said that people are going to find a way to murder other people, so gun laws are not the answer.  So essentially he echoed the dumbest fucking response to this kind of tragedy one could utter.  Essentially, why bother to do anything on crime.  

And yet you hear the same people calling for a national response to the opioid epidemic that is ravaging middle America.  There are calls to put limitations on the kinds and quantities of opioids  doctors are legally allowed to prescribe; open more addiction centres; provide more funding for recovery and enforcement.  Tens of thousands of Americans die each year as a result of gun violence, just as tens of thousands are dying from opioid addictions.  But because of tribal and identity politics, legislators are allowed to act on opioids but told to stand pat on guns.  

[SoulMonster]

36 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

He was sentenced to 21 years and could be released as soon as 10 years....for slaughtering over 70 people....

Theoretically yes, because 21 years is the maximum, but in practice he is gonna spend the rest of his life in prison because we have something called "forvaring" which means that if you are still considered a threat you will have to serve more, indefinitely, regardless of your first sentence...and no judicial committee would ever release that monster back into society. So no, he will spend the rest of his life in prison.

[Ace Nova]

2 minutes ago, downzy said:

Breivik will never see the light of day when it comes to being released from jail.  Many developed nations do not have lifetime sentencing.  They have maximum sentencing (generally limited to 20 to 25 years) but can be kept in prison for the rest of their lives if deemed a threat to society.  Here in Canada we have several infamous murderers who were given the maximum punishment of 25 years.  There is very little chance they will ever be released.

As for the arguments that Norway and other Scandinavian countries have it wrong with respect to how it treats its prison population, you might want to look at the data.  If the concern is to reduce overall crime by lowering recidivism, Norway does a far better job than the US.  

I implore people to read this relatively short article that contrasts the Norway approach to handling criminals to the rest of the world: https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/hurt-the-criminal-or-hurt-the-crime/article4210029/

As the title of the article points out, a society can choose between hurting the criminal or hurting the crime.  Coming down hard on criminals has proven not to be an effective means for lowering overall crime rates, unless you're willing to lock up anyone and everyone for certain crimes for the rest of their lives.  Since the US already incarcerates more people per capita than about any other developed nation but sees higher crime rates as a whole, perhaps the tough on criminals approach should be reconsidered.  

As for his sentence, we'll see how long they keep him in. 

Are there any cases in Norway (since this type of sentencing has been established) that someone has spent over 21 years incarcerated?   I couldn't find any.

As for the results of prison sentencing....I think it has as much to do with the people and the culture as anything else.  Just because it seems to work elsewhere doesn't necessarily mean in will work in the U.S.

I'm not a fan of prison sentencing in US...especially in conservative states that have mandatory sentencing guidlines...even for milder drug offenses.  I think that other than trafficking...drug offenses should be decriminalized...handled as civil cases...that's one area where I tend to agree with the Scandanavian justice system.

 

What I don't agree with is how they handle the most severe crimes and criminals.  Murderers, rapists and child molesters can be released after serving only a few years. 

 

 

[Dazey]

1 minute ago, downzy said:

The Democratic Congressmen that represents Sutherland Springs (who is also funded by the NRA) went on air yesterday and said that people are going to find a way to murder other people, so gun laws are not the answer.  So essentially he echoed the dumbest fucking response to this kind of tragedy one could utter.  Essentially, why bother to do anything on crime.  

And yet you hear the same people calling for a national response to the opioid epidemic that is ravaging middle America.  There are calls to put limitations on the kinds and quantities of opioids  doctors are legally allowed to prescribe; open more addiction centres; provide more funding for recovery and enforcement.  Tens of thousands of Americans die each year as a result of gun violence, just as tens of thousands are dying from opioid addictions.  But because of tribal and identity politics, legislators are allowed to act on opioids but told to stand pat on guns.  

Makes me wonder why they're all so keen on keeping Iran and North Korea nuke free if weapon control has no effect. 

[downzy]

8 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

As for the results of prison sentencing....I think it has as much to do with the people and the culture as anything else.  Just because it seems to work elsewhere doesn't necessarily mean in will work in the U.S.

 

I think Americans need to travel more because there's this strange perception that you're dramatically different than people who live in Australia, the UK, Canada, or Sweden.  Yes, there are some attitude differences between peoples of various nations, but most polling indicates that on core values most citizens of western democracies share a lot of similarities.  

What I find strange is the attitude that says, well, just because it works there doesn't mean it won't work here.  Why?  Why would it not work in the US?  And why not try?  Is what you have working for your now?  Is it better?  If your answer to either is yes, then fine, ignore the results other nations are experience.  But if not, what do you have to lose?  If the concern is to keep people out of prisons, America is already doing a shit job, there's not much room to go lower.  I just don't get this close-minded attitude to replicating other process and policies that other nations are finding greater success with.

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, Kasanova King said:

As for his sentence, we'll see how long they keep him in. 

Are there any cases in Norway (since this type of sentencing has been established) that someone has spent over 21 years incarcerated?   I couldn't find any.

As for the results of prison sentencing....I think it has as much to do with the people and the culture as anything else.  Just because it seems to work elsewhere doesn't necessarily mean in will work in the U.S.

I'm not a fan of prison sentencing in US...especially in conservative states that have mandatory sentencing guidlines...even for milder drug offenses.  I think that other than trafficking...drug offenses should be decriminalized...handled as civil cases...that's one area where I tend to agree with the Scandanavian justice system.

What I don't agree with is how they handle the most severe crimes and criminals.  Murderers, rapists and child molesters can be released after serving only a few years. 

No, we don't have any comparable cases because Breivik is something else entirely. We have never had anyone doing anything close to what he did. 

Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant to us, we only care about whether it works. 

But Breivik will never be a free man again, and he might have to spend the rest of his life in solitary. He is universally despised and other inmates have already tried to break into his cell.

[downzy]

3 minutes ago, Dazey said:

Makes me wonder why they're all so keen on keeping Iran and North Korea nuke free if weapon control has no effect. 

Finding a straight line in American political discourse is nearly impossible.  It's one thing that is both so fascinating and frustrating to watch from the outside.  One wonders where this nation would be if it didn't have the benefits of two oceans defending it, a continent of resources to plunder, and enough geography to provide enough space for its citizenry.   

[DieselDaisy]

There has always been and will always be people who kill/injure people for various purposes, be it insanity, radicalism, political terrorism, grievance, etc. They will use various methods to do so. You cannot legislate to prevent every such incident happening. Great Britain, with some of the strictest gun controls in the world, has long had a knife crime problem and is currently witnessing a 'fad' of acid attacks (i.e. people chucking acid in people's faces).

[SoulMonster]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

There has always been and will always be people who kill/injure people for various purposes, be it insanity, radicalism, political terrorism, grievance, etc. They will use various methods to do so. You cannot legislate to prevent every such incident happening. Great Britain, with some of the strictest gun controls in the world, has long had a knife crime problem and is currently witnessing a 'fad' of acid attacks (i.e. people chucking acid in people's faces).

Did you have a point?

[Ace Nova]

Just now, downzy said:

I think Americans need to travel more because there's strange perception that you're dramatically different than people who live in Australia, the UK, Canada, or Sweden.  Yes, there are some attitude differences between peoples of various nations, but most polling indicates that on core values most citizens of western democracies share a lot of similarities.  

What I find strange is the attitude that says, well, just because it works there doesn't mean it won't work here.  Why?  Why would it not work in the US?  And why not try?  Is what you have working for your now?  Is it better?  If your answer to either is yes, then fine, ignore the results other nations are experience.  But if not, what do you have to lose?  If the concern is to keep people out of prisons, America is already doing a shit job, there's not much room to go lower.  I just don't get this close-minded attitude to replicating other process and policies that other nations are finding greater success with.

I've probably been to more countries than you have. I'm fairly well traveled.  And the culture in most European countries is vastly different than U.S. culture.  They can see an American walking from a mile away in most European countries.  

 

And did you read the rest of my post?  I said that I didn't agree with a lot of the way the sentencing and prison system works in the U.S.  I definitely think it needs a ton of work.

  But the one area where I don't see needing "reduced" sentencing or better prison conditions or better rehabilitation programs  are with the most severe crimes.  A person who murders innocent people, is 100% sane and does it with intent deserves to rot in prison.

 

.