The Religion/Spirituality Thread

[Len Cnut]

47 minutes ago, action said:

yea yeah, that, I know.

you are the top poster in this thread, and the forum's biggest opiniator against religion. however I do not recall you taking on the subject of beheadings in the name of religion in the same manner. I don't want you to criticise these acts, we all do, no what I want you to explain is how can you go from a religion, to beheading people on the streets, and I want you to compare the issue with the major different religions.

Basically, you want him to say muslims are more cuntier than the rest?

[action]

Just now, Len Cnut said:

Basically, you want him to say muslims are more cuntier than the rest?

this is not the christianity thread, it is the religion thread. beheadings in the name of religion are therefore topical, they are a pertinent and worrying issue, vastly more so than people going to church and believing in jesus, so why not start talking about the things that actually matter?

We're one page shy of the 200th in this topic. If now's not the time, then when is it?

[Len Cnut]

2 minutes ago, action said:

this is not the christianity thread, it is the religion thread. beheadings in the name of religion are therefore topical, they are a pertinent and worrying issue, vastly more so than people going to church and believing in jesus, so why not start talking about the things that actually matter?

We're one page shy of the 200th in this topic. If now's not the time, then when is it?

Right, but you want, specifically with Soul, a conversation about Islam, one that addresses beheadings, that criticizes them...with 'oompf', thats quite a specific request

[SoulMonster]

Dance, monkey, dance!

[action]

Just now, Len Cnut said:

Right, but you want, specifically with Soul, a conversation about Islam, one that addresses beheadings, that criticizes them...with 'oompf', thats quite a specific request

I'm not in this to call people cunts, you know me don't you?

I want to delve deeper, I need to understand.

I'm in no way of the level of soulmonster, who is an absolute authority on religion as evidenced by his input in this thread. How else, could you criticise religion in such a way as to fill up 200 damn pages.... that's a small book.

This thread was never about calling people cunts, it was always about delving deeper, seeking causes, analysing the word.... but thus far only on the subject of christianity.

But, this is the religion thread,  and we just can not ignore the things that happen in france, and have happened before in other european countries, in the name of religion. Brutalities, that  take lives. A woman of 70 years was beheaded today. And what is this wretched thread made up of? Ridiculing people who search for answers with jesus. You'd almost believe that this thread is merely a disgusting vehicle to ridicule totally harmless people, who wouldn't hurt a fly. I refuse to believe that, hence my question to soulmonster

[Len Cnut]

1 minute ago, action said:

I'm not in this to call people cunts, you know me don't you?

I want to delve deeper, I need to understand.

I'm in no way of the level of soulmonster, who is an absolute authority on religion as evidenced by his input in this thread. How else, could you criticise religion in such a way as to fill up 200 damn pages.... that's a small book.

This thread was never about calling people cunts, it was always about delving deeper, seeking causes, analysing the word.... but thus far only on the subject of christianity.

But, this is the religion thread,  and we just can not ignore the things that happen in france, and have happened before in other european countries, in the name of religion. Brutalities, that  take lives. A woman of 70 years was beheaded today. And what is this wretched thread made up of? Ridiculing people who search for answers with jesus. You'd almost believe that this thread is merely a disgusting vehicle to ridicule totally harmless people, who wouldn't hurt a fly. I refuse to believe that, hence my question to soulmonster

Well alright, I'm not Soulmonster but me and you can talk about it if you like?  What part what you like to talk about specifically? 

[action]

1 hour ago, action said:

. I don't want you to criticise these acts, we all do, no what I want you to explain is how can you go from a religion, to beheading people on the streets, and I want you to compare the issue with the major different religions.

 

1 minute ago, Len Cnut said:

Well alright, I'm not Soulmonster but me and you can talk about it if you like?  What part what you like to talk about specifically? 

like I said previously.

I'm a religious person too, but I don't feel the urge to kill people who think differently.

So that's what I'm trying to understand; the workings behind these act. Perhaps, we can identify causes, concrete inspiration to these acts, so that politics can then take focused action to prevent such actions in the future.

[Len Cnut]

1 minute ago, action said:

 

like I said previously.

I'm a religious person too, but I don't feel the urge to kill people who think differently.

So that's what I'm trying to understand; the workings behind these act. Perhaps, we can identify causes, concrete inspiration to these acts, so that politics can then take focused action to prevent such actions in the future.

Well, I can explain it, I'm not sure I can bring it to a point where any right-minded person will understand it.  To my understanding, fundamentalist muslims don't appreciate having their prophet made a cartoon of, like the ten commandments y'know, no graven images, you're not allowed to make pictures of God or Muhammad or Moses or Abraham or...y'know, etc, all of em.  So that would be the inspiration.  As to why that then leads them, in the 21st Century, to an act as extreme as murder, well thats because they believe in their scripture to be 100% perfect and correct and true and to be followed to the letter, which is something you can't really do with any bronze age religious scripture without seriously fucking with the balance of civilised society. 

As for how to prevent such actions, well the first would be to perhaps not needle them by drawing their prophet but then thats an attack on the freedom and rights of a free society.  I guess some people just have their trigger, like in the way if you burn an American flag some Americans will attack you. 

Dealing with the ills of a society or global community and how to prevent things isn't a simple commision.  Life is all cause and effect, its like asking 'how do we stop war?'. or 'how do we stop pedophiles?', how does one rid a society of any evil, its a process isn't it? 

[action]

5 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Well, I can explain it, I'm not sure I can bring it to a point where any right-minded person will understand it.  To my understanding, fundamentalist muslims don't appreciate having their prophet made a cartoon of, like the ten commandments y'know, no graven images, you're not allowed to make pictures of God or Muhammad or Moses or Abraham or...y'know, etc, all of em.  So that would be the inspiration.  As to why that then leads them, in the 21st Century, to an act as extreme as murder, well thats because they believe in their scripture to be 100% perfect and correct and true and to be followed to the letter, which is something you can't really do with any bronze age religious scripture without seriously fucking with the balance of civilised society. 

As for how to prevent such actions, well the first would be to perhaps not needle them by drawing their prophet but then thats an attack on the freedom and rights of a free society.  I guess some people just have their trigger, like in the way if you burn an American flag some Americans will attack you. 

Dealing with the ills of a society or global community and how to prevent things isn't a simple commision.  Life is all cause and effect, its like asking 'how do we stop war?'. or 'how do we stop pedophiles?', how does one rid a society of any evil, its a process isn't it? 

In criminology, that would be called secundary victimisation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victimisation

Like laying the blame of rape, with a woman dressing sexy.

That would not be acceptable, and you've quickly specified so yourself.

But that's the message that I hear all too often: stop making caricatures.

Like I said: it's secundary victimisation

Edited October 29, 2020 by action

[DieselDaisy]

It is ironic as I recently read The God Delusion, which is the one time I have ever approached Soul Monster's bookshelf and core interest area - and in my defence, I read the thing (I could have easily not bothered, or ditched it) - and Soul just happened to be going through a period of ignoring me haha.

Oh well. He missed a window of some quintessential soul v myself arguments there, and I have now moved on to reading tomes about serial killers so the window has now closed.

[Len Cnut]

1 minute ago, action said:

In criminology, that would be called secundary victimisation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victimisation

Like laying the blame of rape, with a woman dressing sexy.

That would not be acceptable, and you've quickly specified so yourself.

But that's the message that I hear all too often: stop making caricatures.

Like I said: it's secundary victimisation

Well, I personally reserve the right to insult anyone I so wish to as well but then there will be consequences and I will have to deal with that.  Why do people avoid the word n!gger?  Cuz of the attendant sensitivites surrounding it, right?  In a free society, I should have the right to make a n!gger joke if I so wish.  But I don't out of...respect, sensitivity, whatever it is. 

What other ways are there around it?  How about banning Islam altogether?  Or ending immigration from muslims?  I mean we're talking about solutions right, these would have some sort of effect I'm sure.  There are consequences to these too but, we're looking for a solution here so why not throw ideas into the hat? 

What do you reckon? 

[action]

9 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Well, I personally reserve the right to insult anyone I so wish to as well but then there will be consequences and I will have to deal with that.  Why do people avoid the word n!gger?  Cuz of the attendant sensitivites surrounding it, right?  In a free society, I should have the right to make a n!gger joke if I so wish.  But I don't out of...respect, sensitivity, whatever it is. 

What other ways are there around it?  How about banning Islam altogether?  Or ending immigration from muslims?  I mean we're talking about solutions right, these would have some sort of effect I'm sure.  There are consequences to these too but, we're looking for a solution here so why not throw ideas into the hat? 

What do you reckon? 

by all means, insult whoever you like. it is good for the benefit of a free society.

it's the killings, that need to worry us, and which are our focus of the day.

what I'd reckon? you can either approach the symptoms, or you can approach the root cause. I'm more in favour of the latter.

We as a free society spare no efforts to censor futile things like series and movies, removing troublesome aspects without much effort. the BBC particularily is well experienced in this field, to censore troublesome content.

So the question really answers itself. Censor the quran, remove the parts that advocate killing, and sell a censored version to the public.

I heard that the scottish are starting to ban having certain books in your house that incite hatred. There you go, it seemingly isn't that hard to do, it's happening as we speak. Though I sure hope that they don't stop with banning comics that show blackface, but also look at more worrying texts.

Edited October 29, 2020 by action

[Len Cnut]

1 minute ago, action said:

by all means, insult whoever you like. it is good for the benefit of a free society.

it's the killings, that need to worry us, and which are our focus of the day.

what I'd reckon? you can either approach the symptoms, or you can approach the root cause. I'm more in favour of the latter.

We as a free society spare no efforts to censor futile things like series and movies, removing troublesome aspects without much effort. the BBC particularily is well experienced in this field, to censore troublesome content.

So the question really answers itself. Censor the quran, remove the parts that advocate killing, and sell a censored version to the public.

I heard that the scottish are starting to ban having certain books in your house that incite hatred. There you go, it seemingly isn't that hard to do, it's happening as we speak. Though I sure hope that they don't stop with banning comics that show blackface, but also look are more worrying texts.

Well, western society is not in charge of the publication of the Qu'ran, is it?  Also, where do you stop with that?  Could you not concievably ban the bible with that?  Or Mein Kampf?  Or Catcher in the Rye?  I mean, we're banning things now right, why not go the whole hog?

[action]

Just now, Len Cnut said:

Well, western society is not in charge of the publication of the Qu'ran, is it?  Also, where do you stop with that?  Could you not concievably ban the bible with that?  Or Mein Kampf?  Or Catcher in the Rye?  I mean, we're banning things now right, why not go the whole hog?

why not go the whole bog? Simple, like I said: it's the killings that must be our focus.

Censorship is always some sort of acceptation of defeat, and must therefore be reserved as a last resort.

it is always a tradeoff between the freedom of expression / religion and on the other side the right to live.

you have a freedom to buy whatever book you like, but I have the right to live. When the freedom to buy a book uncensored comes into direct and demonstrable conflict with the right to live, then you know there are no other options. You need to look at frequency here. Catcher inspired chapman to kill lennon, so that's one instance, it is vastly insufficient to ban the book. The book doesn't tell people to kill other people. Mein kampf is a bit more problematic, as neo nazism is a serious problem and finds its inspiration in the book, but unlike certain passages in the quran that gives instruction to kill, there is not a single passage in mein kampf that tells people to kill. And more importantly, if you buy a copy of mein kampf in store today, it will be an annotated version, putting the text into context and criticising the parts that are problematic. Maybe that could happen with the quran too? As for the bible, again, to my knowledge there are no passages there that advocate the killing of people.

[Len Cnut]

3 minutes ago, action said:

why not go the whole bog? Simple, like I said: it's the killings that must be our focus.

Censorship is always some sort of acceptation of defeat, and must therefore be reserved as a last resort.

it is always a tradeoff between the freedom of expression / religion and on the other side the right to live.

you have a freedom to buy whatever book you like, but I have the right to live. When the freedom to buy a book uncensored comes into direct and demonstrable conflict with the right to live, then you know there are no other options. You need to look at frequency here. Catcher inspired chapman to kill lennon, so that's one instance, it is vastly insufficient to ban the book. The book doesn't tell people to kill other people. Mein kampf is a bit more problematic, as neo nazism is a serious problem and finds its inspiration in the book, but unlike certain passages in the quran that gives instruction to kill, there is not a single passage in mein kampf that tells people to kill. And more importantly, if you buy a copy of mein kampf in store today, it will be an annotated version, putting the text into context and criticising the parts that are problematic. Maybe that could happen with the quran too? As for the bible, again, to my knowledge there are no passages there that advocate the killing of people.

Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live?  And there is a lot that goes on in modern day society that, according to biblical terms, would fit the remit of scorcery.  And as for frequency, didn't George W Bush say that he spoke to God and was on a divine mission and thats what the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were about?  Thats a lot of dead bodies there cochise.

Also, the Qu'ran doesn't tell people to kill people either. 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Len Cnut

[action]

1 minute ago, Len Cnut said:

Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live?  And there is a lot that goes on in modern day society that, according to biblical terms, would fit the remit of scorcery.  And as for frequency, didn't George W Bush say that he spoke to God and was on a divine mission and thats what the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were about?  Thats a lot of dead bodies there cochise.

Also, the Qu'ran doesn't tell people to kill people either. 

too bad for the sorceresses of this world. there's no other option for me than to get my cough syrupe from the local pharmacy then.

george bush had the oil industry behind him and the weapon's lobby.

there's a lot of passages in the quran, that even moderate muslims agree, should not be taken litteral and which on face value do instruct people to kill non-believers. So why not, at the very minimum, incorporate such explanations in the quran that gets sold in the shops?

[Len Cnut]

Just now, action said:

too bad for the sorceresses of this world. there's no other option for me than to get my cough syrupe from the local pharmacy then.

george bush had the oil industry behind him and the weapon's lobby.

there's a lot of passages in the quran, that even moderate muslims agree, should not be taken litteral and which on face value do instruct people to kill non-believers. So why not, at the very minimum, incorporate such explanations in the quran that gets sold in the shops?

The Qu'ran isn't a story like The Bible, its not linear, it doesn't begin with 'in the beginning there was...' etc etc, it is a specific discourse or series of revelations from God to the prophet Muhammad through the Angel Gabriel.  The things that is says is specific to what was going on in Muhammads life at the time, it is not instructing the unborn billions of future generations to do anything, it isn't even really talking to them per se.  In fact, its almost a futile book to read if you don't know the prophets life in great detail, its kinda like listening to a conversation but you don't actually know what the principles are talking about. 

The lines, few that there are, I think its one or maybe two, that talk of killing non-believers are specifically relative to a war that was going on at the time, between muslims and non-believers.  In a time where the entire population of Islamic believers was something like 5 to 8 thousand peoples, and a war was going on, they were instructed to fight back, to weed out traitors in their budding nation, and deal with em before they get dealt with themselves.  It is not speaking to some muslim Morrocan bloke in 2020 and telling them to go behead an old lady in Nice.   

[action]

3 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

The Qu'ran isn't a story like The Bible, its not linear, it doesn't begin with 'in the beginning there was...' etc etc, it is a specific discourse or series of revelations from God to the prophet Muhammad through the Angel Gabriel.  The things that is says is specific to what was going on in Muhammads life at the time, it is not instructing the unborn billions of future generations to do anything, it isn't even really talking to them per se.  In fact, its almost a futile book to read if you don't know the prophets life in great detail, its kinda like listening to a conversation but you don't actually know what the principles are talking about. 

The lines, few that there are, I think its one or maybe two, that talk of killing non-believers are specifically relative to a war that was going on at the time, between muslims and non-believers.  In a time where the entire population of Islamic believers was something like 5 to 8 thousand peoples, and a war was going on, they were instructed to fight back, to weed out traitors in their budding nation, and deal with em before they get dealt with themselves.  It is not speaking to some muslim Morrocan bloke in 2020 and telling them to go behead an old lady in Nice.   

well, why don't we copy paste this clarification, the word of len cnut, in every quran?

clearly and demonstrably, some muslims didn't really get the memo

Edited October 29, 2020 by action

[Dazey]

1 hour ago, Len Cnut said:

Basically, you want him to say muslims are more cuntier than the rest?

To be fair you're not helping their case much.  

[Len Cnut]

Just now, Dazey said:

To be fair you're not helping their case much.  

I'm an atheist mate, I don't believe in shit   I'm not even an atheist, I'm a 'i don't care, its boring'-ist.  Suffice to say I don't think there's a fuckin' all powerful being looming over us up there watching us wank in the shower and marking it on some celestial chalkboard as a point against us in some impending afterlife.  You're born, you live and then you die...and then your phones permanently off the hook, thats my notion.  

[Len Cnut]

10 minutes ago, action said:

well, why don't we copy paste this clarification, the word of len cnut, in every quran?

clearly and demonstrably, some muslims didn't really get the memo

It ain't the word of me, its a fuckin' fact, thats what that book is.  The fact that is its a complex text that requires a great deal of commitment to fully understand (much the same way the bible is really).  Furthermore, a lot of people that read it don't understand it, a great many are taught to read it in a language they do not understand (its original arabic.  For example, I can read it in arabic and I don't speak a word of arabic and never have). 

[action]

3 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

It ain't the word of me, its a fuckin' fact, thats what that book is.  The fact that is its a complex text that requires a great deal of commitment to fully understand (much the same way the bible is really).  Furthermore, a lot of people that read it don't understand it, a great many are taught to read it in a language they do not understand (its original arabic.  For example, I can read it in arabic and I don't speak a word of arabic and never have). 

all the more reason to include the necessary clarifications, for the vast majority of peopel who are just too daft to comprehend this complex text.

So anyway, that's my take on it, that's the solution I propose. And anything along the lines of "we aren't responsible for publicising the quran" is unacceptable and guilt by negligence

[Len Cnut]

18 minutes ago, action said:

all the more reason to include the necessary clarifications, for the vast majority of peopel who are just too daft to comprehend this complex text.

So anyway, that's my take on it, that's the solution I propose. And anything along the lines of "we aren't responsible for publicising the quran" is unacceptable and guilt by negligence

So basically the answer is education?  Education for all.  Learn about things before you form an opinion.  Now, its worth noting, for all the Islamic commentators out there, all the places we get our information on Islam about, why do so few clarify this?  I mean if a fuckin' idiot like me knows it why do more people not know it?  Where do people get their information on this stuff?  Because let me tell you, any halfway educated person on this subject can tell you what I told you.  Many Islamic countries have a very basic quality of education on this kind of stuff.  And western understanding of it is just as basic, having been gleaned from, I dunno, Sean Hannity.  The popular western understanding of Islam has more to do with extremist interpretations than it does the straightforward scholarly approach.  Why is that?  Its not even that the vast majority are too daft to comprehend it, its just that, really, not so many people care to.  @DieselDaisy knows more about it all than umpteen muslims I've met, crazy innit?  And why?  Cuz he's just fuckin' interested I suppose, properly interested, not seeking to justify a lifelong belief that he hasn't actually looked into, or seeking to attack a religion due to contemporary issues but because he actually cares to know some shit about it.  Education for its own sake. 

Thats half the problem with Islam, the vast majority of people who chuck around knowledge of it, especially on social media and the like are from two categories: zealous young muslims who have followed it all their life but only decided to open a book last week and secondly, poundshop Tommy Robinsons looking for Qu'ranic quotes to justify their extreme dislike for anyone with a beard and a turban.

[action]

2 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

So basically the answer is education?  Education for all.  Learn about things before you form an opinion.  Now, its worth noting, for all the Islamic commentators out there, all the places we get our information on Islam about, why do so few clarify this?  I mean if a fuckin' idiot like me knows it why do more people not know it?  Where do people get their information on this stuff?  Because let me tell you, any halfway educated person on this subject can tell you what I told you.  Many Islamic countries have a very basic quality of education on this kind of stuff.  And western understanding of it is just as basic, having been gleaned from, I dunno, Sean Hannity.  The popular western understanding of Islam has more to do with extremist interpretations than it does the straightforward scholarly approach.  Why is that?  Its not even that the vast majority are too daft to comprehend it, its just that, really, not so many people care to.  @DieselDaisy knows more about it all than umpteen muslims I've met, crazy innit?  And why?  Cuz he's just fuckin' interested I suppose, properly interested, not seeking to justify a lifelong belief that he hasn't actually looked into, or seeking to attack a religion due to contemporary issues but because he actually cares to know some shit about it.  Education for its own sake. 

Thats half the problem with Islam, the vast majority of people who chuck around knowledge of it, especially on social media and the like are from two categories: zealous young muslims who have followed it all their life but only decided to open a book last week and secondly, poundshop Tommy Robinsons looking for Qu'ranic quotes to justify their extreme dislike for anyone with a beard and a turban.

the one group, the majority, who doesn't fully understand the text, is pretty harmless. people not understanding difficult stuff: too bad, but that's just human nature. the vast majority, muslim or otherwise, are too stupid. People are stupid. A minority, and we're talking really low numbers here, has the ability to critical thinking.

but that's ok, it is what it is. We shouldn't and we can't solve that.

it's about the small amount that goes around killing people. We need to prevent those, with any means that we can. If a clarification in the quran doesn't help, then I'm just reading this social issue all wrong, then there are other causes, but I have no solution to that. You can't deport these people, they're here. And you also can't make their lives better, most of us lead miserable lives, we're all poor, musunderstood and betrayed. That's not a problem of the muslims alone.

you know what, I don't think we're ever going to solve this. Fuck this shit. The world can go to oblivion for all I care. Why am I even trying? Stupid me. I need to come back to my senses.

[Len Cnut]

1 minute ago, action said:

the one group, the majority, who doesn't fully understand the text, is pretty harmless. people not understanding difficult stuff: too bad, but that's just human nature. the vast majority, muslim or otherwise, are too stupid. People are stupid. A minority, and we're talking really low numbers here, has the ability to critical thinking.

but that's ok, it is what it is. We shouldn't and we can't solve that.

it's about the small amount that goes around killing people. We need to prevent those, with any means that we can. If a clarification in the quran doesn't help, then I'm just reading this social issue all wrong, then there are other causes, but I have no solution to that. You can't deport these people, they're here. And you also can't make their lives better, most of us lead miserable lives, we're all poor, musunderstood and betrayed. That's not a problem of the muslims alone.

you know what, I don't think we're ever going to solve this. Fuck this shit. The world can go to oblivion for all I care. Why am I even trying? Stupid me. I need to come back to my senses.

Well, as long as you feel better luvvie