The Religion/Spirituality Thread

[Padme]

8 hours ago, downzy said:

It doesn’t matter who you ask, the problem remains the same.

If God doesn’t get involved then prayer is pointless.  

Or, if everything is preordained then prayer is also pointless.  

Or, God does listen to prayer but decided to take some time off when 6 million Jews were gassed to death and hence isn’t anyone or anything worth praying to. 

In any case it seems as though prayer is a useless exercise. 

God gets involved. But he is always testing people. For example in the old testement. God asked Abraham to kill his own son Isac. When Abraham is about to obey God's order. Then God showed up to stop him. God sent Moses to free his people from slavery in Egipt.

His son Jesus die to liberate God's people. And there is resurrection.

See, that's how it works for believers.

Is it all bullshit? Possible

 

 

[downzy]

10 hours ago, Padme said:

God gets involved. But he is always testing people

Then by that logic most Jews during WW2 must have failed his absurd "test."

A God that gets involved some of the time but does nothing to stop torture and massacre of innocents is no deity worth praying to.

[soon]

Weird how the Lords Prayer doesnt make any requests for God to directly intervene with the march of history. That fact prolly shouldn't matter as much as ones presuppositions though

[Padme]

30 minutes ago, downzy said:

Then by that logic most Jews during WW2 must have failed his absurd "test."

A God that gets involved some of the time but does nothing to stop torture and massacre of innocents is no deity worth praying to.

There are many episodes in the Bible (old and new Testements) of  great deal of cruelty.  

Many times we heard people saying when some tragic event takes place "why would God allow such thing to happen?"

However right now...the pandemic for example. Is anybody around the world blaming God? Did God get less popular for doing nothing about it? Is anybody saying it's God's will?  See, there is this duality or contradiction or whatever you wanna call it

I believe we humans fuck things up. And we humans eventually clean up the mess one way or another

I don't believe for a moment that Trump losing (or winning) an election is God will. But there are people out there who might believe that 

 

[downzy]

13 minutes ago, Padme said:

There are many episodes in the Bible (old and new Testements) of  great deal of cruelty.  

Many times we heard people saying when some tragic event takes place "why would God allow such thing to happen?"

However right now...the pandemic for example. Is anybody around the world blaming God? Did God get less popular for doing nothing about it? Is anybody saying it's God's will?  See, there is this duality or contradiction or whatever you wanna call it

I believe we humans fuck things up. And we humans eventually clean up the mess one way or another

I don't believe for a moment that Trump losing (or winning) an election is God will. But there are people out there who might believe that 

 

Right.  Which brings me back to the question, if it's all on us to make our own beds, why bother praying?

To your point, why would God get involved in a US election if he/she/it can't bother to tip the scales with respect to human suffering?  It's absurd to think that God cares enough to involve itself in national elections, sports, or anything else people want to assign his/her/its divine providence when one considers all the misery and turmoil throughout the world.  

We can see this dynamic at play with people praying over their sick husbands, wives, parents, etc.  Nick Cordero's wife was posting daily before his death from covid-19 that the power of prayer would bring her husband home to her and their little boy.  When he died, it was nothing but posts about how this was God's plan.  It's irrational then to still hold onto the power of prayer if God was going to take her husband away anyway.  

[Padme]

18 minutes ago, downzy said:

Right.  Which brings me back to the question, if it's all on us to make our own beds, why bother praying?

To your point, why would God get involved in a US election if he/she/it can't bother to tip the scales with respect to human suffering?  It's absurd to think that God cares enough to involve itself in national elections, sports, or anything else people want to assign his/her/its divine providence when one considers all the misery and turmoil throughout the world.  

We can see this dynamic at play with people praying over their sick husbands, wives, parents, etc.  Nick Cordero's wife was posting daily before his death from covid-19 that the power of prayer would bring her husband home to her and their little boy.  When he died, it was nothing but posts about how this was God's plan.  It's irrational then to still hold onto the power of prayer if God was going to take her husband away anyway.  

Well if a lot of people get COVID because they went to mass. Those people better blame themselves and the Supreme Court and not God. Nor they should come up with bullshit like it was God's will.

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

On 11/26/2020 at 12:01 PM, downzy said:

EDIT: Forgot we're not allowed to post youtube links anymore.  My bad.

Ricky Gervais' joke from the video:

A holocaust survivor dies, goes to heaven, and tells God a holocaust joke.

God says that's not funny.

The man responds, "I guess you had to be there."

And yet some think praying to find their keys to a God who couldn't do shit about the holocaust makes sense.

This seems like it should go to the religious thread. Christians believe that Satan was made Prince of the Earth for a specific time (famously tempting Jesus with the Kingdoms of the world if he worshipped him). So if we're bringing spirituality into a political or historical debate, that would change the context of how one would view things like the Mao's cultural revolution, the Holomodor, or WWII.

[downzy]

6 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

This seems like it should go to the religious thread. Christians believe that Satan was made Prince of the Earth for a specific time (famously tempting Jesus with the Kingdoms of the world if he worshipped him). So if we're bringing spirituality into a political or historical debate, that would change the context of how one would view things like the Mao's cultural revolution, the Holomodor, or WWII.

Yeah, I agree that I'm uber guilty of thread derailment here.  I'll likely move these posts to the religion thread soon.

I guess one of the perks of owning the place.  But you're right that these posts should not be happening in this thread.  

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

39 minutes ago, downzy said:

Right.  Which brings me back to the question, if it's all on us to make our own beds, why bother praying?

To your point, why would God get involved in a US election if he/she/it can't bother to tip the scales with respect to human suffering?  It's absurd to think that God cares enough to involve itself in national elections, sports, or anything else people want to assign his/her/its divine providence when one considers all the misery and turmoil throughout the world.  

We can see this dynamic at play with people praying over their sick husbands, wives, parents, etc.  Nick Cordero's wife was posting daily before his death from covid-19 that the power of prayer would bring her husband home to her and their little boy.  When he died, it was nothing but posts about how this was God's plan.  It's irrational then to still hold onto the power of prayer if God was going to take her husband away anyway.  

You're viewing religion from a purely materialist point of view. If you believe in the Christian faith, then you believe God made himself into man to suffer a horrible death for people's sins (penal substitution theory). So God literally did that so humans could live forever. When you step back and take your own ego out of it, there's really no gift that could be greater. If you asked me what I'd rather have, a kick ass 90-100 years on earth (because even if you're lucky that's all you're going to get). Or a kick ass life in eternity. I'll choose eternity thank you very much.

[downzy]

3 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

You're viewing religion from a purely materialist point of view. If you believe in the Christian faith, then you believe God made himself into man to suffer a horrible death for people's sins (penal substitution theory). So God literally did that so humans could live forever. When you step back and take your own ego out of it, there's really no gift that could be greater. If you asked me what I'd rather have, a kick ass 90-100 years on earth (because even if you're lucky that's all you're going to get). Or a kick ass life in eternity. I'll choose eternity thank you very much.

So why do some get both? 

Why do millions or billions get to walk through life relatively unscathed while millions or billions of other suffer unspeakable abuse and trauma.  If most of us show up at the same place, how does one who suffered immensely through their physical lives not feel a tremendous amount of anger, hurt and resentment towards not only God but to others who lived lives of relative ease and comfort?

You could then say this is not up to God.  But then that gets us back to my original question of what is the purpose of prayer if God isn't going to get involved?  And if he does sometimes, then why not when he/she/it is most needed?

Another question: if suffering partly shapes who we are, does that suffering and its effects on our identity dissolve away when we die?  And if so, who are we then?  Does everyone's personality and identity become null and void?  Adversity can be beneficial for some; it shapes them into a better person.  But not for everyone.  So do some people get to have the slate cleaned while others do not? 

 

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, Padme said:

Well if a lot of people get COVID because they went to mass. Those people better blame themselves and the Supreme Court and not God. Nor they should come up with bullshit like it was God's will.

If they believe in a god who could have stopped them from making stupid mistakes, then surely they can blame this god from creating them in such a way that they attended mass and got infected.

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

You're viewing religion from a purely materialist point of view. If you believe in the Christian faith, then you believe God made himself into man to suffer a horrible death for people's sins (penal substitution theory). So God literally did that so humans could live forever. 

That's an interesting perspective and I am not asking you but anyone with knowledge to christian beliefs: does this mean that people before AD 33 could not get to heaven? Was it only after god killed his son that people were somehow allowed to heaven to live forever? Why was this particular time in history chosen at the point were god would sacrifice his son to open the gates to heaven again, and mustn't it be real shitty to die in AD 32 and hence be barred from heaven out of pure unluck? And what the fuck was the idea of crucifying his own son to atone for stuff Adam and eve did? Which brings me to the insanity of original sin and how the acts of Eve would be punished on her offspring for thousands of years. Just plain madness or the act of a cruel, unfair deity and really not worth worshipping unless you are cruel and unfair, too.

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

1 hour ago, downzy said:

So why do some get both? 

Why do millions or billions get to walk through life relatively unscathed while millions or billions of other suffer unspeakable abuse and trauma.  If most of us show up at the same place, how does one who suffered immensely through their physical lives not feel a tremendous amount of anger, hurt and resentment towards not only God but to others who lived lives of relative ease and comfort?

You could then say this is not up to God.  But then that gets us back to my original question of what is the purpose of prayer if God isn't going to get involved?  And if he does sometimes, then why not when he/she/it is most needed?

Another question: if suffering partly shapes who we are, does that suffering and its effects on our identity dissolve away when we die?  And if so, who are we then?  Does everyone's personality and identity become null and void?  Adversity can be beneficial for some; it shapes them into a better person.  But not for everyone.  So do some people get to have the slate cleaned while others do not? 

 

What do you mean get both? I think there are a lot of rich and powerful people who seemed to run roughshod over everyone on earth who are now paying for it in the afterlife. I don't make that decision, but I'd assume that is what happens to them. Catholics in particular believe that salvation comes from both faith in Christ and good works on earth. And I would gander that faith in Christ is graded on a curve (judgement will be harder on someone who grew up in a Christian society vs someone who grew up in a Buddhist society or something). And then there's the whole concept of purgatory for souls to go through before being clean enough to go to heaven. 

Let me answer a question with a question. How do you know what a world would look like with no God and just Satan (or a figure like that) with complete free reign. That would be an earth that is even worse than we can imagine plus no hope for an afterlife.

In the afterlife, we believe that if we make it to heaven we are supposed to be perfected versions of who we are. So we believe we don't lose all personality, but we will shed the human weaknesses of greed and nastiness.

[Padme]

1 hour ago, downzy said:

So why do some get both? 

Why do millions or billions get to walk through life relatively unscathed while millions or billions of other suffer unspeakable abuse and trauma.  If most of us show up at the same place, how does one who suffered immensely through their physical lives not feel a tremendous amount of anger, hurt and resentment towards not only God but to others who lived lives of relative ease and comfort?

You could then say this is not up to God.  But then that gets us back to my original question of what is the purpose of prayer if God isn't going to get involved?  And if he does sometimes, then why not when he/she/it is most needed?

Another question: if suffering partly shapes who we are, does that suffering and its effects on our identity dissolve away when we die?  And if so, who are we then?  Does everyone's personality and identity become null and void?  Adversity can be beneficial for some; it shapes them into a better person.  But not for everyone.  So do some people get to have the slate cleaned while others do not? 

 

This thing has been around for ages. I don't know where it came from or when. 

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

8 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

That's an interesting perspective and I am not asking you but anyone with knowledge to christian beliefs: does this mean that people before AD 33 could not get to heaven? Was it only after god killed his son that people were somehow allowed to heaven to live forever? Why was this particular time in history chosen at the point were god would sacrifice his son to open the gates to heaven again, and mustn't it be real shitty to die in AD 32 and hence be barred from heaven out of pure unluck? And what the fuck was the idea of crucifying his own son to atone for stuff Adam and eve did? Which brings me to the insanity of original sin and how the acts of Eve would be punished on her offspring for thousands of years. Just plain madness or the act of a cruel, unfair deity and really not worth worshipping unless you are cruel and unfair, too.

As a Catholic, we believe in the concept of purgatory. So someone that was a good person who died before 33 AD would be there. After Christ's death, he spent the next 2 days in purgatory preaching to those souls to give them the opportunity to hear the good news and be able to accept it and enter heaven.

But some of these questions, even the most learned scholars (if they're being honest) would hit you with a simple "I don't know or I'm not totally sure but we believe that because of this or that."

[Padme]

33 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

That's an interesting perspective and I am not asking you but anyone with knowledge to christian beliefs: does this mean that people before AD 33 could not get to heaven? Was it only after god killed his son that people were somehow allowed to heaven to live forever? Why was this particular time in history chosen at the point were god would sacrifice his son to open the gates to heaven again, and mustn't it be real shitty to die in AD 32 and hence be barred from heaven out of pure unluck? And what the fuck was the idea of crucifying his own son to atone for stuff Adam and eve did? Which brings me to the insanity of original sin and how the acts of Eve would be punished on her offspring for thousands of years. Just plain madness or the act of a cruel, unfair deity and really not worth worshipping unless you are cruel and unfair, too.

Calendars were made by whoever was Pope at the time. As far as I know it was changed at least once, more months were added. That's where April's Fools came from. Some people didn't know or forgot that January 1st was changed. So don't worry about AD 33

[SoulMonster]

41 minutes ago, Padme said:

Calendars were made by whoever was Pope at the time. As far as I know it was changed at least once, more months were added. That's where April's Fools came from. Some people didn't know or forgot that January 1st was changed. So don't worry about AD 33

I wasn't trying to make a point of AD 33 as such, but that there is a specific timepoint when god decided to kill off him son to give all humans eternal life. Why that specific time in history? Why did god then decide that from now on people should be allowed to live forever while everybody who happened to have lived their lives before this seemingly arbitrary year were doomed to not get to live forever.

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

As a Catholic, we believe in the concept of purgatory. So someone that was a good person who died before 33 AD would be there. After Christ's death, he spent the next 2 days in purgatory preaching to those souls to give them the opportunity to hear the good news and be able to accept it and enter heaven.

So a person dying in the year 4000 BC would have had to spend 4000 years in purgatory? 

Are there any catholic explanations as to why god suddenly decided to sacrifice his son to grant eternal life to everybody? And why torment his son as part of the process?

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

57 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

So a person dying in the year 4000 BC would have had to spend 4000 years in purgatory? 

Are there any catholic explanations as to why god suddenly decided to sacrifice his son to grant eternal life to everybody? And why torment his son as part of the process?

Well to the first question, I would just say I don't know what 4,000 years feels like to the soul detached from the body. Time could feel as it does for us, or it could go by in a blink, I don't know.

The term Christians use for the need for the sacrifice of Christ is Penal Substitution. The theory being that God will forgive sin, but he won't do it without some type of atonement. For example, Catholics bring this tradition into the sacrament of reconciliation. Where a sinner can have their sins forgiven via a legitimate authority, an ordained priest. But those sins are forgiven on the condition that the person has a set of prayers to say and if the priest is good and on top of things, a set of works to do as well. And Christs' sacrifice doesn't guaranty eternal life in heaven for everyone, but it opens the door and gives people the opportunity for such (ultimately being saved by faith in Christ and in doing good works on Earth).

Edited November 27, 2020 by Basic_GnR_Fan

[spunko12345]

If there are conjoined twins and one is a pacifist and the other one goes around spitting at people and biting them how does that work out when it comes to heaven and hell?

[Dazey]

6 minutes ago, spunko12345 said:

If there are conjoined twins and one is a pacifist and the other one goes around spitting at people and biting them how does that work out when it comes to heaven and hell?

How about if one's gay, one's straight and they share an arse?  

[Padme]

8 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

I wasn't trying to make a point of AD 33 as such, but that there is a specific timepoint when god decided to kill off him son to give all humans eternal life. Why that specific time in history? Why did god then decide that from now on people should be allowed to live forever while everybody who happened to have lived their lives before this seemingly arbitrary year were doomed to not get to live forever.

 Why at that time and place I don't know. God didn't decide from now on this and that. Nothing was established in one day. It was Peter (the first Pope) the apostles. They started the whole thing. But the crucial before and after moment was Emperor Constantine and Council of Nicea who established pretty much everything we know today, including things like AD or BC

[spunko12345]

7 hours ago, Dazey said:

How about if one's gay, one's straight and they share an arse?  

Good point.

[action]

if there wasn't bad stuff on earth, there wouldn't be good stuff either.

good becomes good, when compared to the bad. Without the bad, there is no reference point.

on earth, people show "what they're worth", how they use "their talents". Not everyone will go to heaven. The scumbags, the liars, the backstabbers, the bullies: they won't be there. In heaven, only the few righteous are allowed.

The victims of the holocaust, will no doubt have earned their heaven with all the suffering they endured.

Jesus suffered too. Suffering is linked to god somehow. We can not understand suffering, but it has its purpose nonetheless, because the suffering of jesus is one of the most important aspects of his life.

Jesus lead a good life, taking care of the sick and the poor, and then he died horribly. I believe that is a template for a life that deserves heaven. Do good in life, and don't get your reward in life but in heaven instead. That's why good people die first, and why doing good does not get you rewards on earth.

Don't be fooled by succes: it is not a reward, but a test of god, to see if you would get conceited. If you remain modest, then this will be noticed.

All of the above amounts to a good life on earth. Even if the afterlife does not exist, one can not dismiss the benefits of leading a good life. Therefore I believe the bible is a good guide for life. It also provides something of a promise, that all the scumbags of the earth, all the unjust, the dictators, the liars etc, will rot in hell.

[SoulMonster]

9 hours ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Well to the first question, I would just say I don't know what 4,000 years feels like to the soul detached from the body. Time could feel as it does for us, or it could go by in a blink, I don't know.

It seems a bit arbitrary, doesn't it? Or very human. To suddenly decide that, "nah, let's allow them back into paradise," after X number of years since Eve sinned. 

But of course, if you lived around AD 33 and you thought the end times were imminent, it seemed more plausible that the end times would be precluded by god sacrificing his son. Then it wasn't something god did at a specific time without any apparent reason, but a part of the end times process. So to people living back then it made more sense, and early christians were expecting something to happen imminently - they were like a doomsday cult. When it became obvious the apocalypse wasn't in a rush, they changed their beliefs to Jesus returning and christians keep waiting for that . Now, in hindsight, and seen through secular eyes, it all seems so man-made. A man-made myth about god opening up the gates of heaven before the apocalypse, created around AD 33 and making some sense then if you believed Jesus was god's son, but less and less sense, and more and more arbitrary, as years go by. 

Edited November 28, 2020 by SoulMonster