Are you a nostalgic person?

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, Oldest Goat said:

I agree @SoulMonster their class system is disgraceful.

Shame on you, Leonard. 

What do folks in Albion think of kiwis and aussies, generally? Or do you just not? 

Funny how it lingers on, right? From Medieval times and feudal systems and all that, to 2018. In Norway we sort of had two classes, the very poor and the nobility, and then we just abolished nobility so we would all be miserable together. In England they still have the nobility and then all those other classes based on wealth or ancestry or where you live or how you talk or how you live and all that. At times it seems almost as limiting as the caste system in India, "Don't you go mingle with Rupert, son! His parents behave as they belong to the £ 50-70k demographic while they are really in the £ 40-50 group! With their clean plates and contrived accents! Tossers the lot of them!" I mean, I can see how there might be resentment between the poor and the rich, you have that everywhere. But here we are talking more about, like, the minutiae of social differences. Why this obsession with these things? Vanity? Ingrained group thinking? Jealousy? I have no idea but it is interesting.

And I am not saying we here in Norway are in any way better. We would act the same if we were inheriting a society where social classes were so important. And our homogeneity poses its own set of problems, like people coming here and standing out just because they dare to be different. So it's not about that. It's just I didn't know from before how much of a thing this is in Britain, and I kind of marvel over it now that I start to understand it. Not because I think it is good, not at all, but more like finding a previously undescribed to science insect that is rather ugly and foul-smelling.

[Len Cnut]

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Coming from Norway, I have never seen the patterns you describe. That people who strive to become "upper middle class", or whatever, are more cunts than people in the working class or the properly rich. Then again we don't really have an upper middle class here, or at least not consider our population to be so stratified as to use that expression. Nor do we talk about a "working class". We are pretty much a classless society. (in both meanings of the word). Of course we would react with disdain on anyone who flaunts newly acquired wealth, like the "yaps" in the 80s, and anyone who brags about their money just to brag about their money. And since we Norwegians have such a humble (read: piss poor) origin, it doesn't take much for people to think you are flaunting your wealth. Any vulgar display of wealth, or really any display of wealth, is likely to be considered unbecoming bragging. Similarly, we don't like people who behave like something they are not, but since we don't really have classes there are no, say, upper middle class behaviors that lower middle class people can adopt to come off "better" than they are.

So basically, you get what I'm talking about.  Its not even a case of vulgar displays of wealth, the people I'm talking about don't walk around with five finger rings and  name plates lookin' like Big Daddy Kane, its a general manner and demeanour and a way of looking at the world/people.  Snobby.  Snobby but for no good reason.  Uptight.  Repressed. 

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But you are describing a whole segment of demography, the entire "middle upper class", or whatever it was, as per your experience, being awful, and that is pretty interesting. At most here, we would have a few pretentious individuals who desperately try to appear as something they aren't.

I could go into great detail about it, not just personal experience but what I get exposed to in terms of such social demographics in the course of my employment but I don't want to bore you.  Point being, the range of experience is not just limited to having the misfortune to having lived next door to a few arseholes.  Despite this though I understand that its not a rule or anything.

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Then again, it doesn't take very much in England, does it? I mean, just go out and buy a common convenience like a dishwasher and wham! you are now acting above your station  Yeah, I still haven't gotten over it.

Or apparently seen the humour in it.  Tip, when I say things like 'i don't trust people with perfect teeth' or 'cricket is for gays' etc etc, weird hyperbolic outlandish generalisations, assume its a joke

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Again, you Brits are too obsessed with classes.

We have a Queen, what the fuck do you expect?   And also, its perhaps worth noting that people that highlight it so often perhaps are highlighting the injustices of said system and are coming from a position of extreme dislike for it, or ridiculing it, laughing at themselves to a point even, though I understand the idea that by being so involved in it you run the risk of becoming a victim of it.

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We would act the same if we were inheriting a society where social classes were so important. And our homogeneity poses its own set of problems, like people coming here and standing out just because they dare to be different. So it's not about that. It's just I didn't know from before how much of a thing this is in Britain, and I kind of marvel over it now that I start to understand it. Not because I think it is good, not at all, but more like finding a previously undescribed to science insect that is rather ugly and foul-smelling.

Honestly, no one gives a shit   A lot of the shit I espouse on here is not common consensus...at all.  But I will say this.  England is less afraid of its ugly side than the rest of Europe...and England is still pretty afraid of it, what that says about the rest of Europe I'll leave up to you to work out.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Len Cnut

[Len Cnut]

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Funny how it lingers on, right? From Medieval times and feudal systems and all that, to 2018. In Norway we sort of had two classes, the very poor and the nobility, and then we just abolished nobility so we would all be miserable together. In England they still have the nobility and then all those other classes based on wealth or ancestry or where you live or how you talk or how you live and all that. At times it seems almost as limiting as the caste system in India, "Don't you go mingle with Rupert, son! His parents behave as they belong to the £ 50-70k demographic while they are really in the £ 40-50 group! With their clean plates and contrived accents! Tossers the lot of them!" I mean, I can see how there might be resentment between the poor and the rich, you have that everywhere. But here we are talking more about, like, the minutiae of social differences. Why this obsession with these things? Vanity? Ingrained group thinking? Jealousy? I have no idea but it is interesting.

And I am not saying we here in Norway are in any way better. We would act the same if we were inheriting a society where social classes were so important. And our homogeneity poses its own set of problems, like people coming here and standing out just because they dare to be different. So it's not about that. It's just I didn't know from before how much of a thing this is in Britain, and I kind of marvel over it now that I start to understand it. Not because I think it is good, not at all, but more like finding a previously undescribed to science insect that is rather ugly and foul-smelling.

We're a mean, rude and nasty people, yes, we don't go around stroking each others bollocks, everyone knows where everyone stands in England, fear and loathing, mutual contempt, its wonderful  

[SoulMonster]

Just now, Len Cnut said:

We're a mean, rude and nasty people, yes, we don't go around stroking each others bollocks, everyone knows where everyone stands in England, fear and loathing, mutual contempt, its wonderful  

Well, I can't say I don't like you Brits  Warts and all.

[Len Cnut]

6 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Well, I can't say I don't like you Brits  Warts and all.

Class, race, gender, nationality, sexuality, ginger hair, any reason we can't find to seperate someone off from the pack and point and laugh we will do it.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Len Cnut

[Len Cnut]

2 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

I agree @SoulMonster their class system is disgraceful.

Shame on you, Leonard. 

What do folks in Albion think of kiwis and aussies, generally? Or do you just not? 

Convicts

 

This short video gives a broad overview

Edited May 25, 2018 by Len Cnut

[Len Cnut]

1 minute ago, Oldest Goat said:

So broad in fact you include NZ in your insult aimed at Australia. As if we don't even deserve our own hate!

That part of the world isn’t worth differentiating   Her Majestys Penal Colonies, nothing more!

[Len Cnut]

Love Rodney Dangerfield!

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

11 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Again, you Brits are too obsessed with classes. It seems to be a straitjacket on social mobility which limits the most innocent of acts, like getting a dishwasher. You seem to be full of disdain for your fellow men, simply because they are something you aren't. I remember when that poor fellow was mauled by a polar bear and Brits would just laugh of it because he had a posh name, so it was all okay. Joking? Of course they were, but it highlights an aspect of your society, this us vs them as defined by social classes handed down from previous times. 

Incredibly fascinating topic and one that I have been observing from the inside for the best part of 20 years now.  So outsider's opinion incoming.   It's a long ass post though:

Spoiler

 

Are the English obsessed with class?  Well, no, obsession is too simplistic.  The problem (and it is a huge problem) is far more complex, nuanced and difficult to define than that.  It's deeply engrained in ways people often aren't consciously aware of.  Class doesn't just permeate the system; it IS the system.  And it's not something so tangible that it can 'linger on', as you put it further down.  It's a way of thinking and behaving that's in the blood, part of the DNA.   Very difficult to try and change or eradicate centuries of attitude and behaviour.  

You are right though, class is a type of national straitjacket and it does limit people and communities in all sorts of ways, although the buying of a dishwasher?  If only that was all!  One of the most deeply rooted ways in which class is reinforced and sustained here is through the education system. 

Ideally, everyone in the local area is supposed to send their children to the local government school (called a comprehensive) so that your posh, middle class and working class children should be mixing.  Then you have diversity, and a range of abilities, which leads to higher standards in schools, which leads to far better life opportunities and far less financial and emotional burdens within families.  But this does not happen.  Why?  Because the upper class and the social climbers won't have their children mixing with working class children. 

The working class have no choice, they've got to send their children to the local school. The upper class choose to send their children to boarding schools such as Eaton, or Harrow, or to an 'elite' school in some far flung corner of the countryside.  The middle class choose to send theirs to any independent school that their children can possibly get into via a rigorous entrance examination process, plus an interview, either one of which the child might 'fail' (lots of damage done in this way).

Added to this is the tendency for English parents to want single sex education and/or faith based education, which further restricts choices for those parents who just want a free, half-way decent, co-ed school for their children, now rare as hen's teeth.  So what you have is a huge amount of segregation within education.  I know most countries have their state and private schools and their single sex and faith based schools, but it's extreme here, especially in London.

If only everyone from all the different backgrounds would send their children to the local school, it would make SUCH a difference to society in all sorts of ways.  But how do you make people change their minds?  How do you make upper class people not send their children to boarding school, how do you make middle class social climbers not...well, social climb? 

It's tricky.  All people want is to exercise their right to choose, but the people doing the choosing aren't the ones that suffer the consequences.  I can't speak for Len, but I wonder if when he talks of people social climbing for more sinister reasons, this might be part of what he means.  There are societal consequences to people's choices i.e. their social mobility.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't have social mobility, only that it comes with its own set of problems that aren't easily solved. 

 

10 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

I agree @SoulMonster their class system is disgraceful.

Shame on you, Leonard. 

What do folks in Albion think of kiwis and aussies, generally? Or do you just not? 

It is disgraceful, but it's such a complicated matter that affects absolutely every aspect of English society.  It's all too easy for an outsider to judge and say shame on you Len, for example, but it's not a simple matter of 'support social mobility' or 'don't support social mobility' especially when the only people who benefit from social mobility are the ones who already have a degree of privilege in the first place. 

Things are very, very slowly changing however.  For instance, the last 10 years or so, has seen a swing away from private education at primary school level.  Many people from all walks of life do send their children to the local primary school and guess what?  Standards have been raised.  It's a completely different matter for secondary though.  It's just going to take a long time for things to be different.

As for what they think of Aussies and Kiwis, well, there is an older generation who still regard us as the 'colonies' and that we're backward and can't read or write, but they're dying out now.   Otherwise, foreigners generally get a free pass and they don't hold us to the same class standards that they hold each other to.

8 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

We're a mean, rude and nasty people, yes, we don't go around stroking each others bollocks, everyone knows where everyone stands in England, fear and loathing, mutual contempt, its wonderful  

Aw, you do yourself and your fellow people a disservice, even if you are joking.   I've seen my fair share of the world and can honestly say, hand over heart, that British, particularly English people, are among the nicest, most polite, not to mention funny humans I know.  I can't really say that of my own people! LOL

[Kwick1]

@SoulMonster, fascinating that those living in Norway don't identify as being in a particular class. This has to be due to the fact that all anyone does is XC ski. 😄 

[Eric Cantona]

1 hour ago, Kwick1 said:

@SoulMonster, fascinating that those living in Norway don't identify as being in a particular class. This has to be due to the fact that all anyone does is XC ski. 😄 

Well there's the high supreme pure blood class, Norwegians, and the inbred dirty low class, Sámis  

[SoulMonster]

3 minutes ago, AslatIE said:

Well there's the high supreme pure blood class, Norwegians, and the inbred dirty low class, Sámis  

Hey! Don't talk like that about my wife. She is not inbred. Kinda dirty, though.

[Eric Cantona]

29 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Hey! Don't talk like that about my wife. She is not inbred. Kinda dirty, though.

The ''inbred'' was just there to spice it up, although I have found a Norwegian lady to cleanse my blood line with  

[DieselDaisy]

I'd go as far to regard Britain as one of the most (class) mobile societies in the world. 

[DieselDaisy]

Poor Ronin's thread is buggered up again!!

You people do realise it is a rather good subject? Sinatra had his phrase in front of the war time Bobby Soxsers. Then he had the Capitol era, simply sublime, genius, not enough superlatives. Then he had the oldie goldie era which had its merits. 

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

38 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Poor Ronin's thread is buggered up again!!

You people do realise it is a rather good subject? Sinatra had his phrase in front of the war time Bobby Soxsers. Then he had the Capitol era, simply sublime, genius, not enough superlatives. Then he had the oldie goldie era which had its merits. 

Sorry about that... There are too many interesting topics in this one thread!

[janrichmond]

I think @Len Cnut is in his own class as is @DieselDaisy. I am from the same area as Len but sadly i have a dishwasher so he has disowned me 

[ChineseDemocracy2004]

I'm a nostalgic person.

[Andy14]

This discussion just reminds me of this - for all of us non-native English speakers. 

[soon]

In regards to the article in the OP, this quote came to mind:

"Art is a selective re-creation of reality according to an artist’s metaphysical value-judgments. Man’s profound need of art lies in the fact that his cognitive faculty is conceptual, i.e., that he acquires knowledge by means of abstractions, and needs the power to bring his widest metaphysical abstractions into his immediate, perceptual awareness. Art fulfills this need: by means of a selective re-creation, it concretizes man’s fundamental view of himself and of existence. It tells man, in effect, which aspects of his experience are to be regarded as essential, significant, important. In this sense, art teaches man how to use his consciousness. It conditions or stylizes man’s consciousness by conveying to him a certain way of looking at existence"  - Ayn Rand, The Romantic Manifesto

If there is truth in this statement I guess that would really lend itself to why teenagers, who are looking for/building their identity and outlook would have a deep connection to art. Or as the article puts it "The years highlighted by the reminiscence bump coincide with “the emergence of a stable and enduring self.” The period between 12 and 22, in other words, is the time when you become you. It makes sense, then, that the memories that contribute to this process become uncommonly important throughout the rest of your life."

It strikes me that the young self is using the conclusions and suggestions of the art to form identity, but also is mimicking the process of the works creation. The art-life cycle of imitation.

The article also mentioned the effect music has on various parts of the brain and this brought to mind the development of the infant brain, where rhythm and melody help to build motor skills and speech also by activating parts of the brain. From Psychology Today:

Spoiler

 ....Additionally, a dynamic dance and movement routine may help babies learning to walk because it serves as a form of movement practice, allowing them to gain greater stability and balance. In relation to movement practice and increasing one’s movement repertoire, Doherty refers to the purported role of mirror neurons in our motor system. Mirror neurons are neurons that fire both when an individual acts and when observing the action of another (Iacoboni et al, 2005). Research has suggested a role for mirror neurons in imitation, understanding the actions of others, Theory of Mind skills and even language development. For example, Iacoboni and colleagues conducted a study using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) to investigate functional mechanisms underlying our ability to understand the intentions of others. When participants were tasked with determining the intentions of an actor in a context-rich situation, there was a significant increase in activity in areas of the brain typically active during the execution and observation of an action. These brain areas included the posterior part of the inferior frontal gyrus and the adjacent sector of the ventral premotor cortex, referred to as premotor mirror neuron areas. One might argue that the engagement in and observation of movement by a baby engaged in an interactive dance, would not only lead to activation of these brain areas but could also facilitate the understanding of intentionality. In other words, interactive dance, along with other, similar forms of movement experience may facilitate both motor development and the cultivation of our sociocognitive abilities.

In another relevant fMRI study it was found that in seven-month old babies in the process of acquiring language, those with the most abundant grey and white matter in the cerebellum and the hippocampus demonstrated better language ability at age one (Can et al., 2013). Interesting, these same brain areas are implicated in motor ability and memory consolidation, respectively. When learning to speak, complex movements need to be coordinated and we need to remember words and grammar. This is why at around six to twelve months of age, babies increasingly direct their gaze on the speaker’s mouth, not eyes.  Doherty suggests that holding your baby closely and dancing or moving with them, particularly in poses such as, “Over the Heart Embrace”, which is good for eye contact and close scanning of the face, allows them to focus their attention on your mouth and facial muscles and imitate those actions.

Another key aspect of interactive dance is music and rhythm.  The first rhythm we are exposed to is our mother’s heartbeat. In fact, a baby synchronizes its own pulse and breathing rate with its mother’s heartbeat while in utero (Ivanov et al., 2009). After birth, it seems that we continue to seek rhythmicity in our lives, as music is ubiquitous across cultures and throughout history...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-one-lifespan/201409/dancing-your-baby

So if Rands theory of art is applicable to the teenage identity-forming stage in the developing young mind, it would perhaps make sense that the art form of music would remain the undeveloped brain's tool of choice?

Edited May 26, 2018 by soon

[SoulMonster]

18 hours ago, Kwick1 said:

@SoulMonster, fascinating that those living in Norway don't identify as being in a particular class. This has to be due to the fact that all anyone does is XC ski. 😄 

Ah, but there we have those that are extremely good, really good, quite good, good, and awful. 

[Kwick1]

42 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Ah, but there we have those that are extremely good, really good, quite good, good, and awful. 

Lol! It's always fun to drop those that are of a lower speed class as it happens to all but one. 

[Paper plate]

Sam Kinison for the win.

[wasted]

I have my moments but I think to really be alive you have to live in the present. Most of our culture is based on hope in the future and looking back at the past. Entertainment kind of blocks your present to. It's pretty hard to focus on the present in an age of information overload. It's always about getting wrecked right now. 

Edited June 7, 2018 by wasted

[angriestwhopper]

Jesus fucking Christ

What Cork sniffing bullshit is on this post.

I'm a nostalgic person. I like red dwarf an robot wars.

Is that OK?