Perhaps - August 18. UPDATE IV: A New Hope (Radio Premiere Tomorrow?)

[Zeppelin]

Good thing the band is releasing music so we wouldn't get this inane TB/Beta/Fernando chit chat that is clearly not needed in a thread about a new song.

[default_]

1 hour ago, Voodoochild said:

Except it does. First and foremost, Beta was an immigrant. I can't find any background info, but it's very common for people with degree here having to work with low-income jobs in the US. Nonetheless, she would never been seing as "housekeeper/nanny" for the eternity if she wasn't from Latin America. It would be a success case, for her to become a manager after having to restart her life after a divorce.

Hey man, Im also Brazillian and of course I can see some issues regarding Betas nationality, but I dont think its the real issue here. Beta and her sons have threated  GNR fans like shit for 20 years now. Plus we have the whole weird situation the band is and there we are.

I dont think the “hate” would be any different have the managers been american or english and the situation was the same. 

Edited August 15, 2023 by default_

[SoulMonster]

Just now, GoodOlJohnnyK said:

Well I can’t speak for what happened years ago on another forum. But I haven’t seen any Brazilian racism here. There was mention of a Latino maid meme, which would obviously be racist. But I haven’t seen that here in the time I’ve been visiting, since 2016 or so.

Your right - racism is pervasive in the human condition. I’ve noticed a lot of criticism of Slash’s guitar playing lately that I disagree with. But I wouldn’t go so far as to say it’s because Slash is half black while Robin Finck is white.

It just seems like the conversation is moving towards “you can’t criticize Beta and Fernando or you are promoting anti-Brazilian sentiment” which is just absolutely ridiculous.

I don’t even really criticize them. Check my post history, I’m the first to point out that they’re just doing what their boss, Axl, tells them to.

But I have to call it like I see it, and it seems like resorting to accusations of racism is just a way for our more optimistic forum members to shut down any criticism of the band and management.

Not at all. As I said, I haven't seen anything that could be interpreted as racism against them on this forum in many years. 

The point in bringing it up isn't to shut down criticism but present context for why Team Brazil are not very fond of the fanbase. People have stated they detest us, and there is something to that. 

[GoodOlJohnnyK]

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

Not at all. As I said, I haven't seen anything that could be interpreted as racism against them on this forum in many years. 

The point in bringing it up isn't to shut down criticism but present context for why Team Brazil are not very fond of the fanbase. People have stated they detest us, and there is something to that. 

Understood. I used “your” instead of “you’re” anyway, so my point is null and void.

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, default_ said:

Beta and her sons have threated  GNR fans like shit for 20 years now. 

I am a GN'R fan, how have they treated me like shit for 20 years? 

[Voodoochild]

I knew as soon as I commented on that, I would get some flack for that.

I mean, I'm giving my perspective as a Brazilian. Obviously I have some language barriers, but I've been part of this community for a really long time, and I know how things work. 

 

49 minutes ago, GnR Chris said:

Bro, come on. It’s not a success case so much as a friendship she struck up with Axl. I am sure he considers them his family now, trusts them, so they manage him. It’s not a classic American success story. It’s nepotism. LOL

Even still, if they didn’t behave so unprofessionally toward fans on social media, then they wouldn’t be disparaged as much. There is a certain level of arrogance to them when discussing anything with us “peasants.”

I agree about their lack of professionalism, but in the current case, there's absolutely nothing to do with that. Still, who gets the blame? 

Even though their communication is unpleasant at best, they are doing their jobs in the tour and everything else that Axl wants.

Also: is it nepotism when is a family business? 

45 minutes ago, Martin Riggs said:

According to you it does. I would disagree. Stephanie Seymour’s nanny could have been Brenda from Biloxi/Birmingham/Baton Rouge or wherethefuckever and her/her family would still have gotten a lot of shit because their rescue singer happened to be Axl Rose. I agree with what you said earlier:

“And like you said, it's all about Axl. He's the one in charge. He's the reason why TB does not work as they should, not the other way around.”

Sure, according to me. You can disagree, but IMO you're not seeing the underlining message. 

BTW, not so underlining when you have to call her "housekeeper/nanny". 

35 minutes ago, GoodOlJohnnyK said:

I respect your perspective but, respectfully, I think that you’re maybe a bit sensitive on this topic because you too are Brazilian.

I myself am a first generation American, child to Greek immigrants. I get it. But that’s not what’s going on here. It might feel different to you, but Axl and the Guns management team have been laughable since long before Beta was running things.

Surely I am sensitive, and that's why I can say how some of the stuff can be disrespectful. I wouldn't expect anyone to point at this because I know it can get under the radar when it's not hurtful. 

20 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Yes, I have. Can't give you examples, years ago and different forum, I can't even remember the specifics. Also, of course racism can be an underlying component when it is so pervasive in humans, it would almost be strange if it weren't. Racism, mysoginy, jealousy, etc, but of course mostly legitimate criticism. 

On a related note, one of the funniest aspects of the barrage of criticism and insults hurled at Fernando and Beta is the double standard in that they don't typically get praised for good stuff that happen and where they likely were involved and influenced the outcome (like touring), but they do get critizised for the single one thing where they likely have absolute zero control (music) 

Indeed. And of course I'm not calling everyone racist. I'm just looking at the overall picture about how things can go sour when there's even a small hint of blame (even if unjustified) to TB. 

 

3 minutes ago, Slaveleft said:

I mean, I really think that is wrong to call (mostly justified)criticism of TB racist, because if in this world exist one great nation that is made of all races on the planet - its Brazil.

So if anyone uses "Latin maid" stereotype - that is classism.

Learn to nuance things a little, stamping a racism tag on everything kinda insults people that really suffered under it (see Congo, South Africa, etc...)

It's a lack of better word. I didn't even call it racism at first, mind you. But the prejudice towards latin american people is not just classism, in my opinion.

One thing I can say: it's very annoying to have to justify why this need to bring the nationality or the name calling bothers me. 

To be clear: I'm not defending Beta, Fernando, Vanessa or whoever. I don't know them, I don't care about them and I'm not trying to have any kind of special treatment with them. I don't like how they treated some of the online fans. But the response of the fanbase is not proportional. 

[ChristianGNR]

People (myself included) tend to overestimate Beta and TB´s influence over Axl.
Axl does whatever he wants.

 

[CaioAKR]

1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

I revisited the 2019 thread about the Perhaps leak. It was hailed as if it was the second coming of Jesus, as were some of the other leaks. "One of the best GN'R songs ever", "one of the best songs ever". With that rave response, it's logical that GN'R might have thought that it was one of the tracks to be prioritized for release.

Maybe the response was the result of a collective delusion caused by the euphoria of hearing previously unheard songs after a long time, but it's interesting to observe the partial shift in regards to the song from then to now.

 

I'm also team "still love it". My favorite leak with vocals. It 100% could fit in the Illusions and in my opinion it's better than more than half of the songs on those albums (and I love them). From what I gather, most fans like/really like/love the song, but those who don't, really don't. Which is completely fine. People will agree to disagree. I much prefer this song to Absurd and even Hard Skool and I'm very happy it's finally getting its moment.

[Blackstar]

9 minutes ago, Slaveleft said:

I mean, I really think that is wrong to call (mostly justified)criticism of TB racist, because if in this world exist one great nation that is made of all races on the planet - its Brazil.

So if anyone uses "Latin maid" stereotype - that is classism.

Learn to nuance things a little, stamping a racism tag on everything kinda insults people that really suffered under it (see Congo, South Africa, etc...)

I don't agree. In the last decades, the term racism, both in academia and in every day usage, does not refer to discrimination based only on race in the narrow sense, but also to discrimination against ethnic minorities in general.

I also personally don't consider the term classism as valid. It's an invented -ism according to the characteristics of racism but with social class being the object of discrimination instead of race/ethnicity, but it's paradoxical, considering that social class, as a category, already entails inequality.

[Georgina Arriaga]

Really we need to chat about this? I'm from latin América and always feel welcome here. Beta/Nando? They deserved all of the vitriol. They are grifters.

[Slaveleft]

3 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I don't agree. In the last decades, the term racism, both in academia and in every day usage, does not refer to discrimination based only on race in the narrow sense, but also to discrimination against ethnic minorities in general.

I also personally don't consider the term classism as valid. It's an invented -ism according to the characteristics of racism but with social class being the object of discrimination instead of race/ethnicity, but it's paradoxical, considering that social class, as a category, already entails inequality.

So tell me (I see that you are from Greece), When communists fought the junta, was that classism or racism(amongst the same people)?

Classism is stronger than modern definition of racism today. Rich black guy and rich white guy are more brothers than their piss poor counterparts.

[GoodOlJohnnyK]

8 minutes ago, Voodoochild said:

BTW, not so underlining when you have to call her "housekeeper/nanny". 

I think he’s referring to her actual stint at Stephanie Seymour’s nanny. Those are Beta’s own words, not just his.

[Voodoochild]

9 minutes ago, default_ said:

Hey man, Im also Brazillian and of course I can see some issues regarding Betas nationality, but I dont think its the real issue here. Beta and her sons have threated  GNR fans like shit for 20 years now. Plus we have the whole weird situation the band is and there we are.

I dont think the “hate” would be any different have the managers been american or english and the situation was the same. 

I think so. And i don't think Beta and whoever treated GNR fans like shit as much. Everyone who actually met them, especially Beta, said nice things about them. I met Fernando and he wasn't really that great, but that's besides the point.

2 minutes ago, Georgina Arriaga said:

Really we need to chat about this? I'm from latin América and always feel welcome here. Beta/Nando? They deserved all of the vitriol. They are grifters.

There's no other place to talk about this, really. But I agree that this won't get nowhere. At first, I was just pointing out how people were being overly negative about something that really isn't that much. We have plenty of signs that the song will come out. The release should've been sooner, yes, but that's really not a big deal.

[axljungle]

It’s very difficult to find something in this threat, in some hours there are hundreds of new posts.

People could hear a clear version of the jukebox song? Or people are talking about the first that leaked?

[SoulMonster]

7 minutes ago, Georgina Arriaga said:

Really we need to chat about this? I'm from latin América and always feel welcome here. Beta/Nando? They deserved all of the vitriol. They are grifters.

Grifters? Who have they swindled? Sounds to me you are projecting on people who have had more luck in their lives than you. 

[Voodoochild]

1 minute ago, GoodOlJohnnyK said:

I think he’s referring to her actual stint at Stephanie Seymour’s nanny. Those are Beta’s own words, not just his.

It's a job title that she had 30 years ago. 

[timoteo]

Imagine defending Guns N’ Roses management after this long lol seek help whoever you are 

[CaioAKR]

7 minutes ago, Voodoochild said:

I knew as soon as I commented on that, I would get some flack for that.

I mean, I'm giving my perspective as a Brazilian. Obviously I have some language barriers, but I've been part of this community for a really long time, and I know how things work. 

 

I agree about their lack of professionalism, but in the current case, there's absolutely nothing to do with that. Still, who gets the blame? 

Even though their communication is unpleasant at best, they are doing their jobs in the tour and everything else that Axl wants.

Also: is it nepotism when is a family business? 

Sure, according to me. You can disagree, but IMO you're not seeing the underlining message. 

BTW, not so underlining when you have to call her "housekeeper/nanny". 

Surely I am sensitive, and that's why I can say how some of the stuff can be disrespectful. I wouldn't expect anyone to point at this because I know it can get under the radar when it's not hurtful. 

Indeed. And of course I'm not calling everyone racist. I'm just looking at the overall picture about how things can go sour when there's even a small hint of blame (even if unjustified) to TB. 

 

It's a lack of better word. I didn't even call it racism at first, mind you. But the prejudice towards latin american people is not just classism, in my opinion.

One thing I can say: it's very annoying to have to justify why this need to bring the nationality or the name calling bothers me. 

To be clear: I'm not defending Beta, Fernando, Vanessa or whoever. I don't know them, I don't care about them and I'm not trying to have any kind of special treatment with them. I don't like how they treated some of the online fans. But the response of the fanbase is not proportional. 

THANK YOU. I too am brazilian and have a similar feel on this topic. Also, I know you from the Perfect Crime forums (was active there as ckspider) and you always had good, level-headed takes.

Of course, everyone can criticize TB for their work, but it often feels as there's something underneath it. Calling them cons and grifters, for example, is totally uncalled for. They're there because Axl wants them to be there and they're certainly not the reason Axl so rarely releases new music. 

[GoodOlJohnnyK]

1 minute ago, Voodoochild said:

It's a job title that she had 30 years ago. 

Right, and the discussion is about her and her son’s merits as managers of a rock band. In the same article that she recounts her time as Stephanie Seymour’s nanny, she calls herself Axl’s personal assistant. That’s relevant because the underlying theme of the discussion is “these people aren’t doing their jobs properly, and that’s probably because they should have never gotten them in the first place - they’re unqualified.”

Is that my opinion? Not necessarily. Their client seems satisfied with their work and, ultimately, I believe the buck has to stop with him.

I’m just saying that I don’t believe the criticisms leveled at Beta and Fernando around here, justified or not, are racially motivated.

[SoulMonster]

2 minutes ago, GoodOlJohnnyK said:

I think he’s referring to her actual stint at Stephanie Seymour’s nanny. Those are Beta’s own words, not just his.

It's accurate to refer to Beta as a previous nanny. But it is usually used derogatory to imply she is not capable to do the job she does, especially when the same people will never mention or acknowledge that she also worked as an executive assistant for a large company in Brazil and also has many years prior experience working for Axl as a personal assistant where she did varied work, preparing her for taking over as manager. Basically, people refer to her as simply a nanny to belittle her. 

And back to the topic of racism: I see no legitimate reason why people should focus on her nationality when referring to her. "That Brazilian family," "Brazilian grifters," etc. Obviously, her past nationality doesn't matter at all, but equally obvious, to some it does. 

[Its Tino]

Thread is off the rails 

[GoodOlJohnnyK]

5 minutes ago, axljungle said:

People could hear a clear version of the jukebox song? Or people are talking about the first that leaked?

I was fortunate enough to go to an empty bar late at night on Sunday and get a pretty good listen to a “clear” version on TouchTunes before it was taken down.

Still, even at the bar I was reliant on their sound system and I was sat closer to the left channel speaker, so I may have missed whatever Slash was doing during the verses and choruses.

but the vocals, bass, rhythm guitar, and solo were loud and clear to me, if you have any questions.

[Blackstar]

2 minutes ago, Slaveleft said:

So tell me (I see that you are from Greece), When communists fought the junta, was that classism or racism(amongst the same people)?

Classism is stronger than modern definition of racism today. Rich black guy and rich white guy are more brothers than their piss poor counterparts.

I think you're confusing classism (which is a questionable term referring to discrimination and prejudice based on someone's social class, e.g. prejudice against someone because they're poor) with the general concept of class and class struggle, which means that in every society (except of course, a utopian communist society or "primitive" societies where there was no personal property) there are classes with different interests.

So, the answer to your question is, of course, neither.You could say that it was a manifestation of class struggle in Greek society at the time, but not limited to that.

[Georgina Arriaga]

7 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Grifters? Who have they swindled? Sounds to me you are projecting on people who have had more luck in their lives than you. 

Stop. Just stop. 

[SoulMonster]

6 minutes ago, timoteo said:

Imagine defending Guns N’ Roses management after this long lol seek help whoever you are 

Imagine levying criticism on the managers for Axl's decision to not release music lol seek help whoever you are