"The General" is officially delayed... but "The General" AND "Monsters" is (unofficially) out of the bag

[Blackstar]

14 minutes ago, Voodoochild said:

And how much of that actually leaked?

If this was all true, MSL would be in jail. 

I think he would have been at least in some trouble, because he would have had to explain how he obtained these and provide proof that they were randomly sent to him.

What doesn't make sense to me about at least some of these emails is why Axl's "autobiography", his "thoughts on VR" etc. would be on Beta's email. Why would Axl send that stuff to Beta? Same with the supposed "enemy list".

[Voodoochild]

2 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I think he would have been at least in some trouble, because he would have had to explain how he obtained these and provide proof that they were randomly sent to him.

What doesn't make sense to me about at least some of these emails is why Axl's "autobiography", his "thoughts on VR" etc. would be on Beta's email. Why would Axl send that stuff to Beta? Same with the supposed "enemy list".

Yeah, and all conventionally dated around that same time, as if it was something that came up only back in that timeframe from 2009-2011.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Voodoochild

[bumbleslash69]

It likely cost the GNR camp a lot less and didn't risk putting the contents of those emails on to the record to simply pay off MSL. If any of that is true. Which maybe a little of it is. It was always hard to tell when exactly MSL was working the crowd and when he actually had material of interest.

I always laughed thinking that there was some sort of sick social experiment at play where someone sent a dozen or so hardcore GnR fans songs off the Village sessions and watched how they interacted with themselves and the forums for years on end lol. 

[Martin Riggs]

This was probably a trap:

January 2008 Shanghai and Beijing festival offers

[Sweersa]

21 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I think he would have been at least in some trouble, because he would have had to explain how he obtained these and provide proof that they were randomly sent to him.

What doesn't make sense to me about at least some of these emails is why Axl's "autobiography", his "thoughts on VR" etc. would be on Beta's email. Why would Axl send that stuff to Beta? Same with the supposed "enemy list".

In the US, the burden of proof is on the government. So in other words, the government needs to prove the accused is guilty, and not have them prove they are innocent. 

[Blackstar]

1 minute ago, Sweersa said:

In the US, the burden of proof is on the government. So in other words, the government needs to prove the accused is guilty, and not have them prove they are innocent. 

Yes, but they would also have to find who the "real" guilty party was, meaning the person who hacked those emails. So the person who had obtained them by whatever means would have to cooperate.

[Sweersa]

1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

Yes, but they would also have to find who the "real" guilty party was, meaning the person who hacked those emails. So the person who had obtained them by whatever means would have to cooperate.

Why? In America, suspects/targets of investigations don't need to cooperate. They can simply tell the police to fuck off, and they may or may not get a warrant (if they can convince a judge) to seize their items relevant to the case. But they can't force anyone to talk/cooperate, and this is assuming the hacker or guilty party was in the US, if not in the US, it's a whole other set of rules and the US feds would need to work with a partner foreign agency. 

Edit: I don't mean to come off as an ass, I just have some personal experience (unfortunately) when it comes to telling feds to fuck off (nicely, usually)  

Edited August 23, 2023 by Sweersa

[janrichmond]

I've always considered that email list to be fake

[colonizedmind]

Just listen to 4 minutes of TG background on YT from one of the 2006 shows....sounds like about to fight Ganondorf! EPIC 

[Blackstar]

2 minutes ago, Sweersa said:

Why? In America, suspects/targets of investigations don't need to cooperate. They can simply tell the police to fuck off, and they may or may not get a warrant (if they can convince a judge) to seize their items relevant to the case. But they can't force anyone to talk/cooperate, and this is assuming the hacker or guilty party was in the US, if not in the US, it's a whole other set of rules and the US feds would need to work with a partner foreign agency. 

Okay, I'm not too familiar with US law. However, I doubt that someone who is in possession of stolen goods (and the emails are personal property/data) can tell the police to "fuck off".  I've also heard about journalists (in the Clinton - Lewinsky case, for example), who were ordered by court to reveal their sources and they had consequences (obstruction of justice charges) if they didn't. Of course I'm not comparing Axl's emails with a political scandal, but it's something that happens.

[colonizedmind]

1 minute ago, janrichmond said:

I've always considered that email list to be fake

It's more fun if we play along! The imagination of the needy and bored to create such monstrosity...

[Sweersa]

1 minute ago, Blackstar said:

Okay, I'm not too familiar with US law. However, I doubt that someone who is in possession of stolen goods (and the emails are personal property/data) can tell the police to "fuck off".  I've also heard about journalists (in the Clinton - Lewinsky case, for example), who were ordered by court to reveal their sources and they had consequences (obstruction of justice charges) if they didn't. Of course I'm not comparing Axl's emails with a political scandal, but it's something that happens.

People absolutely can invoke their 5th amendment rights to protect themselves from self-incrimination in the US, if they are subpoenaed to provide information that can get themselves in trouble. 

You have to think from the perspective of the police, if they have a tip/suspect someone has illegal property, they can't just break down their door and take it. They either need to try to get the suspect to admit to having it through conversation (called a "knock and talk") and possibly surrender it willfully, or obtain a search warrant from a judge to take it by force, if necessary if the suspect refuses to comply with a warrant (which they can't in the US individuals must abide by search warrants or they can get in trouble) But if police don't have a warrant, and just want to talk with a suspect, the suspect has every right to not tell them anything, get a lawyer, not answer the door, etc. Then, the police may or may not seek out a warrant, depending on the case. Usually if the police visit a suspect or "target" of an investigation's home, and want to talk, they are looking for additional evidence or incriminating statements by the target, to build their case against them, leading up to a warrant.

[Voodoochild]

7 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Okay, I'm not too familiar with US law. However, I doubt that someone who is in possession of stolen goods (and the emails are personal property/data) can tell the police to "fuck off".  I've also heard about journalists (in the Clinton - Lewinsky case, for example), who were ordered by court to reveal their sources and they had consequences (obstruction of justice charges) if they didn't. Of course I'm not comparing Axl's emails with a political scandal, but it's something that happens.

In the Clinton-Lewinsky case, it raised some issues with the 1st amendment, as far as I remember. 

But the thing is that MSL produced proof against himself once he leaked both lists- email subjects and/or CD2 titles. And I know that some people back then claimed to have read more stuff, like Robin's resignation letter. He didn't need to cooperate, the proof was already there, IF it was indeed true.

[rumandraisin]

The email list is fake I've always thought. It's just all too convenient. All the click bait titles, they all scream of "looks Guns fans, Beta's thoughts on who should be credited for Sweet Child", 'Tommy was gonna be sacked and replaced by Duff', 'essay from Axl on why he hates Slash'. 

It's just too obvious. 

[Blackstar]

7 minutes ago, Sweersa said:

People absolutely can invoke their 5th amendment rights to protect themselves from self-incrimination in the US, if they are subpoenaed to provide information that can get themselves in trouble. 

You have to think from the perspective of the police, if they have a tip/suspect someone has illegal property, they can't just break down their door and take it. They either need to try to get the suspect to admit to having it through conversation (called a "knock and talk") and possibly surrender it willfully, or obtain a search warrant from a judge to take it by force, if necessary if the suspect refuses to comply with a warrant (which they can't in the US individuals must abide by search warrants or they can get in trouble) But if police don't have a warrant, and just want to talk with a suspect, the suspect has every right to not tell them anything, get a lawyer, not answer the door, etc. Then, the police may or may not seek out a warrant, depending on the case. Usually if the police visit a suspect or "target" of an investigation's home, and want to talk, they are looking for additional evidence or incriminating statements by the target, to build their case against them, leading up to a warrant.

It's basically the same in my country, and every country with a liberal constitution, police has to have a warrant signed by a judge or a public prosecutor, etc. But having the police knocking on your door is "some trouble", isn't it? And if you, for example, bragged on the internet that you were in possession of a package of stolen goods that you randomly received by an unknown sender the other, wouldn't that be enough for the police to get a warrant? 

15 minutes ago, Voodoochild said:

In the Clinton-Lewinsky case, it raised some issues with the 1st amendment, as far as I remember. 

But the thing is that MSL produced proof against himself once he leaked both lists- email subjects and/or CD2 titles. And I know that some people back then claimed to have read more stuff, like Robin's resignation letter. He didn't need to cooperate, the proof was already there, IF it was indeed true.

Yeah, but Sweersa is saying that even with all that MSL wouldn't have to explain anything and could tell the police to fuck off.

[Blackstar]

33 minutes ago, janrichmond said:

I've always considered that email list to be fake

10 minutes ago, rumandraisin said:

The email list is fake I've always thought. It's just all too convenient. All the click bait titles, they all scream of "looks Guns fans, Beta's thoughts on who should be credited for Sweet Child", 'Tommy was gonna be sacked and replaced by Duff', 'essay from Axl on why he hates Slash'. 

It's just too obvious. 

I think some or most of it is indeed fake, or at least the titles had little to do with the actual content but were just made up as a bait to hoarders for trading. I also think that a "list of Axl's enemies" that circulated and was supposed to be from these emails was fabricated.

Some of it may have been real though, because I think that there was indeed a legit "Better video treatment" that circulated.

 

[Sweersa]

14 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

It's basically the same in my country, and every country with a liberal constitution, police has to have a warrant signed by a judge or a public prosecutor, etc. But having the police knocking on your door is "some trouble", isn't it? And if you, for example, bragged on the internet that you were in possession of a package of stolen goods that you randomly received by an unknown sender the other, wouldn't that be enough for the police to get a warrant? 

Yeah, but Sweersa is saying that even with all that MSL wouldn't have to explain anything and could tell the police to fuck off.

For the warrant, depends on the judge. The police are really not going to give a shit about this anyways, as there's no political motivation, no one is in danger, they would have to be pressured by GN'R or UMG lawyers to do anything, and even so, the former would probably want to settle it civilly, like they tried to do with the Village incident, which they did, though it went wrong when stuff leaked regardless. 

Like when that kid hacked Sarah Palin's email, that was blown way out of proportion because there was political motivation to crucify the poor kid. Where as if he hacked someone not well known to the public (for example, a significant other suspected of cheating or whatever) it may never be pursued by the police, even if reported because that a lot of effort spent on something insignificant. 

[Martin Riggs]

27 minutes ago, rumandraisin said:

The email list is fake I've always thought. It's just all too convenient. All the click bait titles, they all scream of "looks Guns fans, Beta's thoughts on who should be credited for Sweet Child", 'Tommy was gonna be sacked and replaced by Duff', 'essay from Axl on why he hates Slash'. 

It's just too obvious. 

I don’t think those are actual subject lines of the emails. He’s summarizing the contents of the email with his own caption. 

[Sweersa]

Back on topic... I've long wondered if the lead guitar we can hear on the 2010 cell phone recording of The General is Robin or Bucket. I initially felt it was Robin, but, if The General is a song Brain came up with, I feel like he would have been jamming with Bucket then they were having chicken, or does Bucket not eat chicken?

[ZODIAC]

Well... MSL was also responsible for the Better_gone and Going Down leaks back then... 

[suckerpunched03]

There was a fan made mix on YouTube a while back. Does any one have any idea how that had vocals on it ? Or just the the back story on how that was developed? 

[evader]

5 hours ago, Sweersa said:

Back on topic... I've long wondered if the lead guitar we can hear on the 2010 cell phone recording of The General is Robin or Bucket. I initially felt it was Robin, but, if The General is a song Brain came up with, I feel like he would have been jamming with Bucket then they were having chicken, or does Bucket not eat chicken?

This isn't to say Bucket didn't have some presence on the recording, but I'd bet a bucket of chicken that the solo on the cellphone clip was Robin.

[evader]

5 hours ago, suckerpunched03 said:

There was a fan made mix on YouTube a while back. Does any one have any idea how that had vocals on it ? Or just the the back story on how that was developed? 

Some old dude with too much time on his hands spent countless hours determining every vocal syllable sound on the cellphone clip, then spliced together re-tuned Axl vocals primarily from the CD stems to make it seem like Axl was singing it. The instrumental was done much the same way, except the orchestra, which included old concert intro soundbytes overlayed with recreations from various other sound generators like FL Studio. Then, he replaced the Finck solo from the clip with some sweet Buckethead wankery (Track 3 of 2007's Cyborg Slunks).

[ShadowOfTheWave]

6 hours ago, Blackstar said:

I think some or most of it is indeed fake, or at least the titles had little to do with the actual content but were just made up as a bait to hoarders for trading. I also think that a "list of Axl's enemies" that circulated and was supposed to be from these emails was fabricated.

Some of it may have been real though, because I think that there was indeed a legit "Better video treatment" that circulated.

 

Yeah, I think the Better video was to star puppets and the main character was a bird man.

[quikspade]

17 minutes ago, evader said:

Some old dude with too much time on his hands spent countless hours determining every vocal syllable sound on the cellphone clip, then spliced together re-tuned Axl vocals primarily from the CD stems to make it seem like Axl was singing it. The instrumental was done much the same way, except the orchestra, which included old concert intro soundbytes overlayed with recreations from various other sound generators like FL Studio. Then, he replaced the Finck solo from the clip with some sweet Buckethead wankery (Track 3 of 2007's Cyborg Slunks).

Don’t let the cat out of the bag. Now everybody’s going to want to do it.