THE GENERAL - MONSTERS - Official Discussion Thread. NO LINKS OR ASKING FOR LINKS

[D..]

Marco Beltrami was kind enough to answer me a second time, can't believe he's so kind and took the time, what a great guy! Sadly he doesn't remember Monsters former name. He does remember a song being quite long but unsure if it was The General or another one. But if it was, it's not The General we have, as apparently there was a longer song he worked on (but he's unsure whether that long song was The General back then, maybe it's Seven or another one we haven't heard).

Just to be clear, he did listen to the leaks, I wanted to make sure he understood and could compare with what he remembers, and what we have has been modified from when he worked on those, so I guess it's hard for him to properly remember specific former names. But he does recognize those two songs & his work, and they weren't a single song back then (just like we have a hard time understanding how they could form a single song, as it is). The instrumental part isn't meant to form a continuity between this version of The General, and this version of Monsters, both instrumental were specific creations of his. Each 8 songs he's worked on/arranged had a specific arrangement meant for a particular song.

So it almost confirms for me that Monsters is indeed Soul Monster. And 100% confirms that those "The General" and "Monsters" we have are different songs.

I hope this clarifies things for everyone, now I can only hope Axl will someday clarify more things for us, and 100% confirm this is Soul Monster.

Can't wait for December 8th. Considering the credits things stating "The General and Monsters" as a single song, not everyone agreeing it's Slash & Duff on both songs, we might be in for more surprises! In "worst case scenario", we'll have a better mix/audio quality.

[colonizedmind]

1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

Yeah, some people can't cope with the idea that CD era songs have guitar work that they like and it's Slash, so it can't be, it must be Bucket or Robin

It's quite ridiculously funny, actually....I am a fan of Robin and Bucket....the first time I saw GNR live was NU-GNR and the shows were great...I can appreciate that time, while still knowing that Slash is the O.G of this band and there is no GNR without Duff and Slash in the first place...(or at least what it became) he is all time great, still making the top lists, go check out the newest Rolling Stone top 250 guitarists...where is Robin? Where is Bucket? Being a great iconic player is lot more than technical ability....if that's all it was, most teachers and sessions players would wipe the floor with the classic rock dudes!  Slash playing on these tracks and folk thinking it's bucket is rather hilarious and kinda the best way of outing those that have opinions based on stigma and where they've parked their allegiance, rather than reality....it is the best thing to come out of this usual release mess! 

Like a blind test of audio experts that can't tell the difference between 320 and FLAC! 

Edited October 30, 2023 by colonizedmind

[Blackstar]

17 minutes ago, kanecrescente said:

Yep and they're all too short... very un-GNR, they all feel rushed and pieced together without any soul to them. hopefully that changes with the official release.

Why un-GN'R? The majority of GN'R songs are 3-5 minutes long.

[WhazUp]

22 minutes ago, kanecrescente said:

Yep and they're all too short... very un-GNR, they all feel rushed and pieced together without any soul to them.

That's because the soul was stolen by the devil's romances, its all a part of them theme man!

[colonizedmind]

Would love it if Slash shares some more moments with Richard on future material....the guy is so clean and smooth, he's earned some more solo spots on new material! Too talented...

🎸🔥🔥🔥

[Twinaleblood]

12 minutes ago, D.. said:

Marco Beltrami was kind enough to answer me a second time, can't believe he's so kind and took the time, what a great guy! Sadly he doesn't remember Monsters former name. He does remember a song being quite long but unsure if it was The General or another one. But if it was, it's not The General we have, as apparently there was a longer song he worked on (but he's unsure whether that long song was The General back then, maybe it's Seven or another one we haven't heard).

Just to be clear, he did listen to the leaks, I wanted to make sure he understood and could compare with what he remembers, and what we have has been modified from when he worked on those, so I guess it's hard for him to properly remember specific former names. But he does recognize those two songs & his work, and they weren't a single song back then (just like we have a hard time understanding how they could form a single song, as it is). The instrumental part isn't meant to form a continuity between this version of The General, and this version of Monsters, both instrumental were specific creations of his. Each 8 songs he's worked on/arranged had a specific arrangement meant for a particular song.

So it almost confirms for me that Monsters is indeed Soul Monster. And 100% confirms that those "The General" and "Monsters" we have are different songs.

I hope this clarifies things for everyone, now I can only hope Axl will someday clarify more things for us, and 100% confirm this is Soul Monster.

Can't wait for December 8th. Considering the credits things stating "The General and Monsters" as a single song, not everyone agreeing it's Slash & Duff on both songs, we might be in for more surprises! In "worst case scenario", we'll have a better mix/audio quality.

I can't add more reactions for today so I can't like your post, but thank you for contacting Beltrami and sharing the info!

[Flayer]

24 minutes ago, kanecrescente said:

'Absurd! Absurd!' was literally the chorus.

Perhaps has the exact same verse and chorus over again before the solo... Hard Skool was the most passable 'GNR-esque' release and even that was short.

if you take them as one song together, the General and Monsters do stand out as the exception. First epic length piece since UYI. Coma’s deranged younger brother.

[Flayer]

19 minutes ago, colonizedmind said:

It's quite ridiculously funny, actually....I am a fan of Robin and Bucket....the first time I saw GNR live was NU-GNR and the shows were great...I can appreciate that time, while still knowing that Slash is the O.G of this band and there is no GNR without Duff and Slash in the first place...(or at least what it became) he is all time great, still making the top lists, go check out the newest Rolling Stone top 250 guitarists...where is Robin? Where is Bucket? Being a great iconic player is lot more than technical ability....if that's all it was, most teachers and sessions players would wipe the floor with the classic rock dudes!  Slash playing on these tracks and folk thinking it's bucket is rather hilarious and kinda the best way of outing those that have opinions based on stigma and where they've parked their allegiance, rather than reality....it is the best thing to come out of this usual release mess! 

Like a blind test of audio experts that can't tell the difference between 320 and FLAC! 

Agree with your general point, but Buckethead always earns a place in those top guitarist lists (on the basis of his own solo work though, not playing for Guns).

[Blackstar]

11 minutes ago, D.. said:

Marco Beltrami was kind enough to answer me a second time, can't believe he's so kind and took the time, what a great guy! Sadly he doesn't remember Monsters former name. He does remember a song being quite long but unsure if it was The General or another one. But if it was, it's not The General we have, as apparently there was a longer song he worked on (but he's unsure whether that long song was The General back then, maybe it's Seven or another one we haven't heard).

Just to be clear, he did listen to the leaks, I wanted to make sure he understood and could compare with what he remembers, and what we have has been modified from when he worked on those, so I guess it's hard for him to properly remember specific former names. But he does recognize those two songs & his work, and they weren't a single song back then (just like we have a hard time understanding how they could form a single song, as it is). The instrumental part isn't meant to form a continuity between this version of The General, and this version of Monsters, both instrumental were specific creations of his. Each 8 songs he's worked on/arranged had a specific arrangement meant for a particular song.

So it almost confirms for me that Monsters is indeed Soul Monster. And 100% confirms that those "The General" and "Monsters" we have are different songs.

I hope this clarifies things for everyone, now I can only hope Axl will someday clarify more things for us, and 100% confirm this is Soul Monster.

Can't wait for December 8th. Considering the credits things stating "The General and Monsters" as a single song, not everyone agreeing it's Slash & Duff on both songs, we might be in for more surprises! In "worst case scenario", we'll have a better mix/audio quality.

Awesome, thank you!

Besides the four unreleased songs (The General, Leave Me Alone/Soul Monster, Seven and Thyme), Marco Beltrami is credited on CD for orchestral arrangement on Street Of Dreams, TWAT, Madagascar, This I Love and Prostitute (on four of them in addition to Paul Buckmaster). I assume he worked on the songs that made CD at a later time, since from his 2003 interview is evident that the four unreleased songs were his first work with Axl.

So maybe the long song he remembers could be just TWAT or Prostitute?

[Sweersa]

A 6 song EP with Perhaps, Monsters, The General, State Of Grace, Oh My God and Atlas Shrugged would be amazing. I'd buy ten copies, a few for me and others for friends and family. 

[estrangedtwat]

I don't know why everyone is so insistent that these two songs are somehow one song.

Each song has a beginning, a middle, and an end.  They are separate.   There's no segue.  There's no connection.  This isn't a "9 minute epic."  It's two 4 minute songs.

 

Just listen to them and enjoy them.  Stop trying to force your opinion into existence when it's clearly wrong.

 

If the record comes out and these songs flow seamlessly together as one track, then I'll change my tune.  But until then, all we have is two songs.

Edited October 30, 2023 by estrangedtwat

[D..]

2 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Awesome, thank you!

Besides the four unreleased songs (The General, Leave Me Alone/Soul Monster, Seven and Thyme), Marco Beltrami is credited on CD for orchestral arrangement on Street Of Dreams, TWAT, Madagascar, This I Love and Prostitute (on four of them in addition to Paul Buckmaster). I assume he worked on the songs that made CD at a later time, since from his 2003 interview is evident that the four unreleased songs were his first work with Axl.

So maybe the long song he remembers could be just TWAT or Prostitute?

You're welcome. The longer song he remembers must be one of the unreleased ones as I asked specific questions regarding The General & Monsters, how they changed/evolved, and if Monsters was Soul Monster ; ) He did acknowledge the album Chinese Democracy in his first mail so I think he isn't thinking of any song on that album we all know in his second answer. He's more like wondering if The General was the longest one, or another unreleased one. So I think it's either Seven, or an older version of The General. But who knows maybe he was thinking TWAT or Prostitute, this guy composed so much stuff in his career and is still composing for a lot of movies, it's already a miracle he remembers some stuff from 20 years ago : )

[Rindmelon]

31 minutes ago, D.. said:

Marco Beltrami was kind enough to answer me a second time, can't believe he's so kind and took the time, what a great guy! Sadly he doesn't remember Monsters former name. He does remember a song being quite long but unsure if it was The General or another one. But if it was, it's not The General we have, as apparently there was a longer song he worked on (but he's unsure whether that long song was The General back then, maybe it's Seven or another one we haven't heard).

Just to be clear, he did listen to the leaks, I wanted to make sure he understood and could compare with what he remembers, and what we have has been modified from when he worked on those, so I guess it's hard for him to properly remember specific former names. But he does recognize those two songs & his work, and they weren't a single song back then (just like we have a hard time understanding how they could form a single song, as it is). The instrumental part isn't meant to form a continuity between this version of The General, and this version of Monsters, both instrumental were specific creations of his. Each 8 songs he's worked on/arranged had a specific arrangement meant for a particular song.

So it almost confirms for me that Monsters is indeed Soul Monster. And 100% confirms that those "The General" and "Monsters" we have are different songs.

I hope this clarifies things for everyone, now I can only hope Axl will someday clarify more things for us, and 100% confirm this is Soul Monster.

Can't wait for December 8th. Considering the credits things stating "The General and Monsters" as a single song, not everyone agreeing it's Slash & Duff on both songs, we might be in for more surprises! In "worst case scenario", we'll have a better mix/audio quality.

Good man sir, well done for showing the initiative to get the info from the horses mouth

[Coma16]

9 minutes ago, estrangedtwat said:

I don't know why everyone is so insistent that these two songs are somehow one song.

Each song has a beginning, a middle, and an end.  They are separate.   There's no segue.  There's no connection.  This isn't a "9 minute epic."  It's two 4 minute songs.

 

Just listen to them and enjoy them.  Stop trying to force your opinion into existence when it's clearly wrong.

 

If the record comes out and these songs flow seamlessly together as one track, then I'll change my tune.  But until then, all we have is two songs.

Not only are they 2 songs, but one is current and the other isn't

[kitstuai]

1 minute ago, Coma16 said:

Not only are they 2 songs, but one is current and the other isn't

What do you mean? 

[DK6]

26 minutes ago, colonizedmind said:

Would love it if Slash shares some more moments with Richard on future material....the guy is so clean and smooth, he's earned some more solo spots on new material! Too talented...

🎸🔥🔥🔥

There was nothing in that solo that I ever want to hear again  - just give me Slash.

[DSTK]

11 minutes ago, estrangedtwat said:

Each song has a beginning, a middle, and an end.  They are separate.   There's no segue.  There's no connection.  This isn't a "9 minute epic."  It's two 4 minute songs.

 

My main worry is that you think 4x2=9 

 

[Coma16]

1 minute ago, kitstuai said:

What do you mean? 

I'm in the camp that believes The General is an older demo, while Monsters seems to be current (possibly final?) Version with Slash and Duff.

[kitstuai]

Just now, Coma16 said:

I'm in the camp that believes The General is an older demo, while Monsters seems to be current (possibly final?) Version with Slash and Duff.

It can't be true I checked yesterday by splitting all the tracks from both songs, Drums (when the real acoustic drums are playing) are the exact same on both songs, as well as bass tone/transient

[Coma16]

3 minutes ago, kitstuai said:

It can't be true I checked yesterday by splitting all the tracks from both songs, Drums (when the real acoustic drums are playing) are the exact same on both songs, as well as bass tone/transient

Time will tell then I guess. December is just around the corner but hopefully this drops (officially) even sooner!

[D..]

15 minutes ago, estrangedtwat said:

I don't know why everyone is so insistent that these two songs are somehow one song.

Each song has a beginning, a middle, and an end.  They are separate.   There's no segue.  There's no connection.  This isn't a "9 minute epic."  It's two 4 minute songs.

 

Just listen to them and enjoy them.  Stop trying to force your opinion into existence when it's clearly wrong.

 

If the record comes out and these songs flow seamlessly together as one track, then I'll change my tune.  But until then, all we have is two songs.

Well now we have direct confirmation from Marco Beltrami himself that these were two different songs 20 years ago, his orchestrations are meant for two different songs. And as it is (the leaks), it's two different songs. Unless like you say they add a transition and that they flow together on the vinyl's release, it's two songs.

That's why I'm very curious about the vinyl release. Did we understand the credits wrong? Will the vinyl feature exactly the leaks we have or something different? Will both The General & Monsters be on the vinyl despite the vinyl just indicating "The General"? Do Slash & Duff really play on those leaks? December 8th can't come soon enough.

[kitstuai]

3 minutes ago, Coma16 said:

Time will tell then I guess. December is just around the corner but hopefully this drops (officially) even sooner!

Yes really looking forward for the official release

[Blackstar]

The main takeaway from what Marco Beltrami said is that it's now 100% confirmed that Monsters is Soul Monster.

As far as the two Vs. one song debate, in addition to what Marco Beltrami confirmed, the two songs were clearly still separated at least at the time of Axl's chats in 2008, as Axl seemed to refer to them as two different songs.

The confusion arises 1) from the fact that they have been registered as one song in credits databases and moreover the takedown notices for Monsters said that it was due to illegally uploading The General and 2) from the fact that parts of the orchestral intro can be heard on both songs.

Regarding the orchestral piece that was used as intro at concerts, I think it's possible that it was its own thing and a mashup of Beltrami's work on both The General and Leave Me Alone/Soul Monster.

And then maybe, at some point after 2008, the two songs were paired together, not necessarily to be made into one song in the form of Rocket Queen, but more like a "suite" of two songs that are linked thematically. I think @WhazUpis on to something about Axl's original idea being to have them back to back on an album. Bach said that Axl told him that The General would be on a post-CD album because it was connected lyrically to other songs that would be on that future album as well. So now, since these songs are not being released as part of an album, Axl probably decided to release them as a song that has a Pt. 1 and Pt. 2.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Blackstar

[22frets]

51 minutes ago, colonizedmind said:

It's quite ridiculously funny, actually....I am a fan of Robin and Bucket....the first time I saw GNR live was NU-GNR and the shows were great...I can appreciate that time, while still knowing that Slash is the O.G of this band and there is no GNR without Duff and Slash in the first place...(or at least what it became) he is all time great, still making the top lists, go check out the newest Rolling Stone top 250 guitarists...where is Robin? Where is Bucket? Being a great iconic player is lot more than technical ability....if that's all it was, most teachers and sessions players would wipe the floor with the classic rock dudes!  Slash playing on these tracks and folk thinking it's bucket is rather hilarious and kinda the best way of outing those that have opinions based on stigma and where they've parked their allegiance, rather than reality....it is the best thing to come out of this usual release mess! 

Like a blind test of audio experts that can't tell the difference between 320 and FLAC! 

That Rolling Stone list is a joke! 

[Nick85]

Wow so Monsters = Soul Monster! 😮