discuss Catcher in the Rye lyrics

[wasted]

http://songmeanings.com/songs/view/3530822107858577615/

There's definitely a lot to explore with this song. And people have different experiences of the song.

Edited November 5, 2013 by wasted

[wasted]

do you think most people take the song at face value?

[Rovim]

do you think most people take the song at face value?

I think most people take most songs at face value.

[wasted]

do you think most people take the song at face value?

I think most people take most songs at face value.

Similar thing with Hey jude. Isnt it something about Julian Lennon, a kind word from McCartney?

So the way Catcher is taken is more like "Axl identifies with Holden Caulfield" but then pays his tribute to Lennon?

It's kind of weird bcos Axl comes over very rationale in his interviews, explanations but his public person is this crazy guy. So when people hear Axl is doing a song called Catcher in the Rye they must come with preconceived ideas.

I've seen some people think it's how he hates the fans (young folks) and the media/label (the old folks).

[Black Sabbath]

Didn't Axl give some insight on the song during the chats here? Can't fully remember.

[SoulMonster]

Didn't Axl give some insight on the song during the chats here? Can't fully remember.

Axl, explaining why Brian May's contributions didn't end up on the song: There's a few reasons and none of them all that big and definitely not in spite or to slight anyone. 1st off obviously I knew people liked the song but the Brian appreciation really only showed up in force publicly after we had moved on in Guns. In fact Not many seemed to care and most comments were aimed at why Slash in their opinions should be here. Brians solo itself is a personal fave of mine and I really couldn't understand as he's such a rock legend why it wasn't openly appreciated more at the time. In actuality all that feel and emotion referred to now had a lot to do with Sean and I and the parts I chose out of Brian's different runs, versions, practice runs etc to make sure we had those elements in one version. It's entirely constructed from edits based around one specific note Brian hit in a throw away take. And though Brian seems to have warmed a bit to it at least publicly he was unfortunately none to pleased at the time with our handiwork. I remember looking at Brian standing to my left and him staring at the big studio speakers a bit aghast saying "But that's not what I played." Sean Beavan and I were not in any way tring to mess with Brian we just did what we do and then try and do our best to stand up for our decisions [htgth.com, December 12, 2008].

Axl: For me the song is inspired by what's referred to sometimes as Holden Caulfield syndrome. I feel there's a possibility that how the writing is structured with the thinking of the main character could somehow reprogram for lack of a better word some who may be a bit more vulnerable, with a skewed way of thinking and tried to allow myself to go what may be there or somewhat close during the verses. I'd think for most those lines are enjoyed as just venting, blowing off steam, humor or some type of entertainment where it may be how others seriously live in their minds. The bridge b4 the solo is an artistic interpretation of a institutionalized mind. The outro is a tribute to Lennon and an indictment of the author for writing what i feel is utter garbage and I agree whole heartedly that it should be discontinued as required reading in schools. That's my take, I could be completely wrong, I do realize that the song and title could have the next poor soul reading the book and feeling inspired to make an unfortunate statement. So there's the catch I guess. When I came up with the focus, I got a call from the director of Imagine wanting a bunch of money to make a documentary, had a guy sending me strange packages about Lennon and serial killers etc and the web started calling me Salinger w/no one knowing what I was writing. I figured I was on the right track at least for a song [chinesedemocracy.com, December 13, 2008].

Axl: I've never actually tried to put this into words this way before and this'll probably get me in trouble with someone but here goes...The piano started while watching a documentary or A&E type show on Chapman and wanting to write something for Lennon and his family. W/the book it started as fascination and curiosity with Holden Caufield Syndrome and what was or could possibly be in the book that obviously certain vulnerable people have seemed to become so passionate about and resort to outrageous public attempts or acts of violence. That and the question most have in regard to Lennon's death...why? Can't say I have those answers but I feel our song pays the emotional tribute to John Lennon in the end that I'd wanted to write since the night he was killed and also since first listening to Elton and Bernie's Empty Garden. I read the book. I fell into a deep dark sleep. Went to the studio and sang as a joke what I refer to as the Holden parts off the top of my head and felt at the time at least imo I had stumbled on a way of thinking that had a pattern and a flow but was broken up like a television station going out and coming back slightly off course intermittently and not making sense with it's earlier portion. Where this unease helped to justify or even demand taking action and feeling the power of taking that action against whoever your mind felt was somehow involved or the root of this unease and alienation. Accompanied by a calming surreal almost religious (but totally insane) vibe I think that if some were to experience having limited capabilities, insecurities or are mentally and emotionally challenged in some way could find a false sense of solace and take comfort in like being on some type of drugs or meds but with an added completely false sense of an imagined calling or purpose. It certainly could and very well often would feel better than some individuals real world or having to experience or live with a clearer perspective of their true reality...All of which of course could be imagined and hooked together by events like Lennon's murder, reading the book, wanting to write a song about someone being insane, John Lennon, Chapman, people shooting people and watching Mel Gibson's Conspiracy! And when I got home not in any dramatic way but more like cleaning off the dinner table I threw my book away. Don't know if any of that's really what any of that's about but that's how it hit me and just like an instant cake we got the basis for a song [chinesedemocracy.com, December 13, 2008].

Bumblefoot: Brian May had done a whole lot of tracking for the album that unfortunately wasn’t used. Brian had recorded a solo for the Catcher In The Rye years ago, and I had done some takes later on. And I guess they chose to go with the stuff I put down, which actually I feel a little guilty about: you know Brian May is definitely someone who is of ‘we are not worthy!’ status. Brian, if you read this, you’re welcome to play anything you want on one of my records. In fact, I won’t play any guitar at all and you can play all the guitars – that would be fine with me [bumble in the jungle, Guitarist, March 2009 issue].

Bumblefoot: I see them singing along to all the new songs. And that's good. I like that certain ones stand out for people. Like Catcher In The Rye, for instance. There's so much going on, and it's a beautiful song with so many nice melodies in there. And speaking of Yes, one of my favorite Yes albums is Going For The One, and the things going on at the end of Catcher In The Rye remind a lot of me of the title track on that album. It just keeps going and coming around again and building and saying more. There's improvising on it, and the guitars and vocals sort of dance around with each other. And that's fucking cool! [HTGTH, September 2010].

[Padme]

The way I see in his explantions Axl is mixing many things. When Salinger wrote the book he just meant to adreess adolences behavior. At that time teens were still considered kids by society. Salinger basically says that teens where facing challenges growing up. Holden was a typical teen. He hated his parents, his class mates, he hated the whole world and nothing pleased him or made him happy.

What that has to do with Lennon? Nothing. Chapman is a crazy dumbass who killed Lennon because he blamed Lennon for The Beatles break up. But Chapman that night was carrying the book CITR. Did the book play a role? I don´t think so. But investigators familiar with the case and with all the details about it could find a connection.

Axl mentioned the movie Conspiracy Theory, good movie. But it´s just that. A movie. The theory was that the C.I.A. had a list of people they wanted to kill. And they developed a programm where individuals pick at ramdom were brainwashed and turned into killers. And they were sent to kill those people in the C.I.A. list. One of them was Lennon. And Chapman was the guy trained to carry that job. The idea was to confused society and make everyone believe that a crazy guy acted alone when in fact it was a C.I.A. plan. The movie is not about Chapman. But they mention him

I think it was great from Axl´s part to make a song to pay tribute to Lennon. But I´m not sure that mixing all these things was the right way. Or maybe it´s that I was expecting other kind of song

[wasted]

There's element of One in a Million, Liberal baiting to Catcher. I think it plays that role on CD. It's kind of like a dark psychedelic song that was never on Exile. It has a Mansonesque feel.

Have to remember The Catcher in the Rye was a counter-culture favorite, loved by rebels. although Salinger was just satirizing adolescence, maybe even his own, it was taken on by people who took Holden as a hero, he told the truth about the world kind of thing. And a lot of people never lose that maybe and that's why it's a favorite, it sort of becomes amusing. But the they use it in schools to get kids interested or educate them about being an adult, it's a weird choice. But in terms of symbolism the book is dense with imagery about Holden's mental state.

But I think someone like Chapman took the hero element as confirmation of his idea that people were phonies. But Lennon was someone who wasn't a phony, maybe a bit like Axl, he told the truth when he should shut up maybe. People like Chapman, who can't find a way to live in the adult world, look for heroes to win for them, represent them. My guess is that Chapman was a big fan of Lennon in The Beatles but he turned into a "phony" for his later negative comments. Plus his comments about Beatles being bigger than God, maybe also made Chapman hate him. To the point where Chapman thought he was the real Lennon and must kill Lennon. Chapman's said he thought he'd become someone by killing Lennon. Basically Holden becomes like your friend who says it ok to think what you are thinking, you're right the adult world sucks, that's the truth. So to me that's how the book encourages this. It's meant to be taken as amusing or empathetic, but people say "that's me, I like Holden, I am not the only one, the world is shit". This justifies what they do. maybe.

Why Axl wanted to be the Holden syndrome character in the song, I don't know? It's more like him playing the role to benefit the song.

I guess it's a way of placing the Syndrome sufferer in the song, then "The catcher in the rye won't let you get away from him", so that Syndrome character is under the influence of the Catcher, and maybe that is Axl's point. First he hates old people under the influence of the book and ends up in a mental hospital, then he hates young people and kills Lennon. Then Axl blames Salinger in the outro. I don't see the tribute to Lennon so much in the song, the outdo just says Salinger took away the person who was always there for us (i.e. Lennon)

The part where he says "what used to be is not there for me, and it ought to be for someone who belongs insane" - that's like Chapman saying Lennon used to be there for me, but he's gone, he's a phony…Axl is kind of putting words in his mouth there to explain how he thinks the character is, saying he'd think bcos I'm insane you can't change. That's a messed up way to think!

I think the song flows a lot better than I thought it did. I don't think he directly ever talks about Lennon, more about what Lennon meant to him and what Salinger took away which is shown how in the song.

[wasted]

what I like about axls lyrics is that you can apply them to an endless variety of senarios

I think they are obscure enough to be taken to mean different things. But it does make some sort of sense as it's meant. It's pretty simple. But I can almost see people singing along to the lines like "we're not the only ones who think like this" If you get the idea that Catcher is making you sing the verses, then there's only one way to take it. If you don't then what are you thinking or how do you take the Oh the Catcher in the rye won't let me get away from him" There's only one way to take it. Something is holding you back.

Loosely, you want to get a gun and kill the old and young folk, you can't get away from the Catcher (the idea of killing people) - then you're in the hospital, and you're asking the Catcher to decide what you should do. Then you accept that you belong insane, which frees you up to do anything. The key point s of the lyrics aren't really open to interpretation really.

[DownUnderScott]

what I like about axls lyrics is that you can apply them to an endless variety of senarios

Great comment dude! I think this sentiment applies to a great many number of the most brilliant songs out there - that they can be applied and interpreted in many ways depending on the individual listening to it. So true.

[wasted]

I don't really know the meanings of a lot of classic songs, like I read what We Will Rock You is about the other day. Oasis basically said their lyrics didn't have meanings really. It just sounded good.

Catcher has always sounded like the one almost anyone would like.

Edited November 5, 2013 by wasted

[axlsalinger]

I think this section is the tribute to Lennon, the brilliant songwriter who could no longer play or create music for friends and fans who took so much comfort in his music, thanks to the actions of one deranged lunatic. The Lennon who cared about people and his message, and was a unique soul unlike anybody else.

On an ordinary day
Not in an ordinary way
All at once the song I heard
No longer would it play
For anybody
Or anyone
That needed comfort from somebody
Needed comfort from someone
Who cared
To be
Not like you
And unlike me

Edited November 5, 2013 by axlsalinger

[Coma16]

I think this section is the tribute to Lennon, the brilliant songwriter who could no longer play or create music for friends and fans who took so much comfort in his music, thanks to the actions of one deranged lunatic.

On an ordinary day

Not in an ordinary way

All at once the song I heard

No longer would it play

For anybody

Or anyone

That needed comfort from somebody

Needed comfort from someone

Who cared

To be

Not like you

And unlike me

One of the best verses in GNR's entire catalog.

[CoolRanchDressing]

For anybody or anyone. Lol

Who is the 'you' in the song? And who is the 'I'?

[Estranged Reality]

http://songmeanings.com/songs/view/3530822107858577615/

There's definitely a lot to explore with this song. And people have different experiences of the song.

I actually liked the lyrics a lot more before Axl explained where he was coming from with them. I find it, I dunno, ironic? - that a guy who wrote (and defended) songs with pretty dirty lyrics (at least for their time) would read Catcher in the Rye fifty years after the fact and find it distasteful and feel compelled to write a song criticizing Salinger. I mean, that was the basic gist of his explanation behind the track, and I admire him for taking time to explain where he was coming from, but I still sort of disagree with his stance and that affects my appreciation of the lyrics a bit.

That said I think it's a great fucking song! One of my favourites off ChiDem.

[Cosmo]

I think this section is the tribute to Lennon, the brilliant songwriter who could no longer play or create music for friends and fans who took so much comfort in his music, thanks to the actions of one deranged lunatic.

On an ordinary day

Not in an ordinary way

All at once the song I heard

No longer would it play

For anybody

Or anyone

That needed comfort from somebody

Needed comfort from someone

Who cared

To be

Not like you

And unlike me

One of the best verses in GNR's entire catalog.

+1 this verse right here elevates Catcher In The Rye into one of Guns N' Roses's top songs of all time, IMO. One of those songs that could bring me to tears in a sad day.

[liers]

The lyrics in the first half of the song are average, nothing too special, but the ending part makes the song great.

One of the first times I listened to CITR, It was during the ending part "On an ordinary way, not on an ordinary day, all at once the song I heard, no longer would it play", I got the call that my uncle died. That part of the song was very meaningful since then.

Edited November 5, 2013 by liers

[Rovim]

Always thought one of the main themes in Catcher was control, and the lack of it.

Also that 'normal' people or the majority of people need someone with a free mind to put into words, music or anything that is felt and recognized in an artistic way to ease the pains of life.

Kinda ironic cause you can't be normal if you want to be that person who can do that. Too much control will make you less human and no control will make you crazy, and maybe even dangerous to yourself and others.

It's a fucked up song and I always find another meaning or a new way to explain it.

[Apollo]

The Lennon who cared about people and his message, and was a unique soul unlike anybody else.

You mean the guy who was a junkie, who was caught in several lies, was a terrible father to his children and who not only cheated on his wives, but also beat them up? No, he wasn't a "unique soul unlike anybody else"............he was a troubled man who created some great pop music. He wasn't a great musician and he wrote some pretty cheesy lyrics. But he also wrote some great songs and he had an amazing voice. He has a couple songs in my top 25 favorite songs of all time list.

Not quite as saintly as you are making him out to be.

Oh, and I think Catcher is the best overall song on CD.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Groghan

[wasted]

Always thought one of the main themes in Catcher was control, and the lack of it.

Also that 'normal' people or the majority of people need someone with a free mind to put into words, music or anything that is felt and recognized in an artistic way to ease the pains of life.

Kinda ironic cause you can't be normal if you want to be that person who can do that. Too much control will make you less human and no control will make you crazy, and maybe even dangerous to yourself and others.

It's a fucked up song and I always find another meaning or a new way to explain it.

And that makes me think sometimes Axl is identifying with Chapman or Holden in a way. Then the line "Not like you, unlike me" makes sense. Maybe Axl doesn't blame Chapman but Salinger who was in position of responsibility and misused it somehow. Whereas Lennon used it well.

It is more the image of Lennon that Chapman had in his mind of Lennon, not really growing up and understanding people are bastards really etc. Maybe what we find with Slash and Axl, nobody is perfect.

It goes back to UYI, a bit like Eminem does, he's always telling I'm just another guy. Don't idolize the ink.

Catcher is kind of about the fans. chapman or Axl's stalker are extreme examples. If I ever find myself boarding a plane to Malibu with a copy of Atlas Shrugged I'll let you know. Take me down with extreme force. Robocop style.

[Rovim]

Of all the songs on Chinese, I think it was Catcher and it's themes that pushed Axl to explore different directions, or at least go deeper in that thought process of just...

What's it like to be really insane, switching views in the middle of the song so it's almost like a different subject but not really. Connect it all together. That's interesting.

I hope in that aspect, there are more songs like Catcher. The topics that troubled Axl on Illusions were explored on Chinese too, the new thing was mostly Axl's outlook as an older human being that made it cool, and you could see the progress. Like in Madagascar and Prostitute.

Catcher is really the song that made me believe Axl is capable of writing about other subjects, beyond what he covered on the Illusions.

Sometimes when you think so much about just one thing, it limits you. Axl felt prosecuted and in that 'out ta get me' position most of his life. I.R.S is basically Out Ta Get Me: part 2. Free of that, I wonder what kind of direction he could have taken without songs (lyrically speaking) like Sorry, Streets Of Dreams, Or Better.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Rovim

[wasted]

http://songmeanings.com/songs/view/3530822107858577615/

There's definitely a lot to explore with this song. And people have different experiences of the song.

I actually liked the lyrics a lot more before Axl explained where he was coming from with them. I find it, I dunno, ironic? - that a guy who wrote (and defended) songs with pretty dirty lyrics (at least for their time) would read Catcher in the Rye fifty years after the fact and find it distasteful and feel compelled to write a song criticizing Salinger. I mean, that was the basic gist of his explanation behind the track, and I admire him for taking time to explain where he was coming from, but I still sort of disagree with his stance and that affects my appreciation of the lyrics a bit.

That said I think it's a great fucking song! One of my favourites off ChiDem.

That's true, I did enjoy my interpretations of the song. I thought it was more Axl isolated in his mansion wrestling with growing up, still having those feelings but then recognizing them as the Catcher in the Rye. Then looking at when it was written, Kurt Cobain's suicide, I thought it might be song about Kurt. But I just enjoyed the demo driving around San Andreas in the woods and mountains.

It took me a while to get to grips with what he said, and enjoy the song at the same time. It becomes more like a movie. You aren't relating to it on a personal level as much. But I kind of think it's well put together now, And I think you can sing the verses, identify with Holden and still blame Salinger. That's the genius part of the song. You can get what Holden is saying and feel that malaise in the afternoon, And still feel Catcher trying to hold you back. It's just in Chapman's case he couldn't get past the Catcher, ended up in the hospital asking the catcher to decide for him. Catcher told him to kill Lennon, he's a phony, you're right. Outro blame Salinger.

The listener can be a identifying voyeur (not really but you know) for the verses and feel the struggle to get away from the catcher and then save himself by blaming Salinger in the outdo. That's where it could get more of an epic victory feel to it. You know if the crowd were on board and got it and "you took our innocence beyond our stares".

I don't think he read the book before he was interested in the Holden Caulfield Syndrome, so he read it to see what was in the book to make Chapman do this. Basically if you read it, it's like Holden is the ultimate hater and then Salinger has that part about the Catcher which is like don't grow up, stay like Holden hating everything, it's pure and true.

But it's meant as a satire, almost to be funny. And the Catcher part is meant as a love letter to lost innocence. Or it's not, some say Salinger did write it as a manifesto against the world and did hate the real world. So...

In a way we are all Holden's but we need a Lennon to help us see the light, not a Salinger to bury us in hate. And Salinger killed Lennon. Fascinated by good, destroyed by evil. It's like a good vs. evil world series of love.

Edited November 6, 2013 by wasted

[wasted]

For anybody or anyone. Lol

Who is the 'you' in the song? And who is the 'I'?

depends on the part of the song.

[axlsalinger]

The Lennon who cared about people and his message, and was a unique soul unlike anybody else.

You mean the guy who was a junkie, who was caught in several lies, was a terrible father to his children and who not only cheated on his wives, but also beat them up? No, he wasn't a "unique soul unlike anybody else"............he was a troubled man who created some great pop music. He wasn't a great musician and he wrote some pretty cheesy lyrics. But he also wrote some great songs and he had an amazing voice. He has a couple songs in my top 25 favorite songs of all time list.

Not quite as saintly as you are making him out to be.

Oh, and I think Catcher is the best overall song on CD.

What lines in the song refer to his parenting skills? In case you didn't notice, I was analyzing the song lyrics as they relate to Lennon.

I am a huge Lennon fan and am well aware of his shortcomings. "Junkie" is quite a stretch and he was a good father to Sean (not to Julian, though), but he definitely had issues. But if there's one person I have EVER encountered on this planet who can be called unique, it is John Lennon.

[axlsalinger]

As for these other comments, it is quite an interesting topic. I think Catcher in the Rye is an amazing book, so do most people but unfortunately there have been a few psychopaths who are strangely affected by it for whatever reason. Seems fairly clear that Axl was intrigued by this and wanted to explore the reasons why.

In my view, Salinger does identify greatly with Holden's innocence and the way he feels about things but you will notice he ends up in a mental hospital at the end. Almost like Salinger was saying there is a fine line between reality and insanity. Just because you believe something doesn't make you right.