The concept of Jesus

[Dazey]

MyGnR has some really angry atheists. Actually, the internet is full of 'em now. It's like we'll be answering door to "Sir, have you heard the good news about atheism?"

Yeah good luck with that; none of us are daft enough to be up at that time on a Sunday morning.

[dalsh327]

So.

In the beginning God decided to create the universe, I guess he got lonely and felt he needed to create some beings to worship him. Adam and Eve were created and for some reason he decided to make one tree that they couldn't eat from: The tree of knowledge of good and evil. So I'm to understand that Adam and Eve had no concept of good... or maybe it's stressed mostly evil... before eating from this tree? Minor point. Anyway, a talking snake that was actually Satan, an evil being who gets pleasure out of torturing God's creations for all time whom God for some reason doesn't abolish and therefore is totally cool with, decides to convince them to eat from this one tree. God is aware of this but doesn't stop it... which is weird because obviously Adam and Eve don't understand that eating the apple is bad since they don't have a concept of good from evil so they don't know listening to a snake is bad and listening to God is good.

God, who knew this would happen and designed it to happen (allowed Satan to come to Earth, created the tree, allowed Adam to eat from it), then decides that because ignorant Adam ate from a specific tree the human race was forever cursed. Until Jesus.

Many years later (only a few thousand apparently) God decides "hey, I'll forgive these guys now". So the creator of the universe sees the following as the best, or only way, to forgive those that he in the first place condemned: To send himself who is also his son down to Earth to die in an underdeveloped part of the world in a fashion similar to other made up stories before him (virgin birth, etc, not confusing at all eh God?). If he condemned us and had the power to forgive us why would he need to go through this bizarre procedure of having himself get killed? Jesus didn't die for our sins, Jesus died because God couldn't forgive us for eating from the wrong tree that he allowed/designed for us to eat from, us without knowledge eating from that tree was wrong, so he had to send himself to Earth and kill himself to make it okay for himself to forgive us? That's quite a lot of bullshit for God to go through to get back to a pre-eating-of-a-bad-apple period that was only bad because he deemed it so. That makes sense to billions of people, somehow.

So the whole point of Jesus is some bizarre attempt by God to convince himself it's okay to forgive us, so long as we imagine he exists. Can anyone make the genesis/jesus story more logical? To me it's absolutely crazy. Aside from how crazy it is on it's own if you accept evolution as fact, which it obviously is, Adam and Eve never existed. If Adam never existed he never ate from the evil tree, if he never ate from the evil tree creating original sin than it doesn't matter if Jesus was a real dude or anything else because the very concept/need for Jesus never happened.

Evolution single handedly destroys Judaism, Christianity, and Islam by proving Genesis wrong... but that's another topic. I want to know specifically the Genesis/Jesus story. How is any of it logical?

The problem is trying to look at the Bible as a factual document when it's 95 percent storytelling, 5 percent rules and regulations. To me, it just seems like the harshness of the desert life is all over the Old Testament, and some Greek influence made its way into the New. And as far as Revelation goes, most people think it's John the Baptist, not John of Patmos.

Point is, a lot of people put their faith in a book they never read, one that's not by divine hand, but by many men (and possibly women). As Penn Jillette said, reading the entire Bible is likely to make an athiest out of you.

We're not going to find the answers to the universe (and there's something to be said for the powers of faith to help heal people), but we're going to keep trying.

[Guest Len B'stard]

The thing i like about Dazey is that he makes sense of what has always just been a feeling for me (i.e. there not being a God). I can't honestly say i know shit-fuck-all about like, science and all that stuff but i've always been a non-believer in God, not cuz Science made sense of the world for me (which it does and continues to do when i touch upon it but i've never gotten right up in it's arse and sussed it out like Dazey seems to've) but because i don't feel, in a human sense, that the world as i know it is in anyway reflective of the existence of a God.

I mean, for a God that spent most of the Old Testament very annoyed, he doesn't seem to rise to challenges much. Watch:

Oi God, you're a fuckin' mug. I could spark you the fuck out and all your mates Jesus and Abraham and all that. And what was the point of doing all them bummers over in Soddom and Gommorah, that was bang out of order, proper fancy yourself, don't you? Well i've got your number slag, any time you want it.

See, look, i'm still alive and everything

(Meet Len, hands down the worst advertisement for athiests being intelligent in the world )

Ahhh the joy of idiocy. Bible says God loves a fool so i'm doing alright either way

Edited July 12, 2012 by sugaraylen

[MEXzilla]

I don't follow any church. And I honestly don't by into any church. But as long as people are being peaceful about their "god" who am I to say?

Agreed. I see no point in constantly bashing religious people over and over again. As long as they don't do any harm, let them do whatever they want.

I agree with u guys completely. Although I'm a god believer I never understood why people who believe in god bashed those who don't or vise versa. As for the main post I really don't know how to explain genesis lol. I believe in science yeah I know weird god n science lol but like science explains nothing exist out of nothing and as of now science can't explain the exact beginning of the universe so I choose to believe God made it. I don't know why but I felt I had to say that, anyways real great post dude.

But if God created it, then he must have created it from nothing too, so we have the same situation here. And then you also have the question, where did God come from? He couldn't have created himself, because to do that he would have to exist, and if he already existed he wouldn't create himself just to destroy himself so the new himself could stay as the God.

Good point but isn't god almighty therefore nothing came before him/it I know it's half ass lol but I really have no idea on how to explain that in a paragraph; I think I might write that on my graduation paper lol. Still nice points there.

[jekylhyde]

For me it used to be easy to say I believe in God, but now I'm having doubts... I'm still sure that someone created us. I just can't figure out who.... Science tells us how things happened and religion tells us why things happened. They don't exclude each other.

[The Wicked Hand]

Jesus is very real I azure u.

You will find yourself in big trouble if you don't comply

[DirtyDeeds]

I was cool with the first 4709027 atheist threads, but enough is enough. Haven't read any posts, and I'm done with these threads for a while because when I post in them, I just help to perpetuate them.

[Dazey]

I'm done with these threads for a while because when I post in them, I just help to perpetuate them.

Anybody spot the deliberate mistake there?

[arnold layne]

I LOVE YOU JEBUS. FORGIVE THY SINS AND THOU CLEANSE ME SPIRIT FREE.

[The Wicked Hand]

Praise G O D !!!

[TeeJay410]

Basically three jumps need to be made to be a theist. First from atheist to deist, then from deist to theist, then the third jump is into which theology. It's difficult to outright disprove the deist position, that there was a non personal prime mover of some sort, however you can say it is unlikely. Basically the first question to make the jump from atheist to deist is ask how did the universe come into being? Science has answered with the big bang theory. However it is entirely possible that there was a prime mover to that bang. However, it further begs the question of where did this prime mover get its materials and what created the prime mover. This question leads to an infinite regression asking the same question over and over. Why is that important? The philosophical principal of Occam's razor states basically that any hypothesis ought to be a concise as possible. Adding in a prime mover adds an unnecessary element to the hypothesis of the big bang, the prime mover element doesn't just lead to but in itself is an infinite regression therefore adding nothing.

Simply put, the hypothesis functions without the assumption. So. Personally making the jump from atheist to deist is extremely difficult for me, so any theology fails at the outset for me.

[Towelie]

I believe in a God, in a creator.

Even taking Christianity/Jesus out of the equation - if some of you would be more comfortable with that - I believe that this universe was created. This world is so fine-tuned for life, everything so amazingly specific in order for the world to even exist and allow life, that I think it takes more faith to think this was a random accident.

Whether it was a Genesis 6 day creation, or the big-bang, or whatever theory you subscribe to, I think this world is created. Not accidental junk thrown together.

Many people would be comfortable with that idea, at the least - that you can't create something from nothing, that this universive is created: I happen to call the creator God. The bigger force, the intelligence behind it all.

As for the OP of this topic, talking about Jesus Christ - I know a bit about Christinianity, and while I am not Christian and am unsure about what I believe regarding Jesus, I DO understand the whole "Jesus dying for our forgiveness" idea: Basically, God is just. A just God. This world is so jacked up and wrecked, (the bible calls it sin, but if you're more comfortable saying that we humans make a mess of things, that's cool), and according to the bible, sin leads to death. We are all capabale of sin, we all do it. Now if sin leads us to death because of the mess we make of things, we need to pay for that. Jesus basically came to say, "As God's son, I will pay your debt for you, to free you from the debt you would have to pay yourself."

In terms of Christianity, that's what Jesus' sacrafice is about - His paying a debt for something we could have paid for ourselves (I.E Death, hell, judgement etc).

Jesus willingly did that, according to the bible, and we are free to choose - either accept the gift of having our "debt" paid, or pay it ourselves.

For those who would say "Why wouldn't God just forgive if he is that great and moral, instead of letting Jesus die that way?" Well, like I said earlier, God is supposed to be a just God: Would you want a God who was not just? Put it this way, if you went to court after being beaten and tortured, would you want the judge to say, "Well, the perp seems pretty sorry, let's just let this criminal go home and enjoy his life"?

Or would you want justice? Fair justice? To see that crime doesn't pay, or that it's wrong to treat others like crap.

Apparantly God wants justice for our wrongdoing. Any of us would if we were wronged - Jesus willingly offered to pay, as the only one capabable of offering a perfect sacrafice.

Nobody HAS to accept that gift, it's just out there. That's what the basic idea of Christianity is about. Like I said, I am not Christian, I just happen to know a lot about it all because my family are.

(Also, that old pearler: Who created God then? is old. It's not a trump card, it doesn't answer anything. One would presume a creator such as God doesn't need to be created - and if a being such as God DID create the world, He would exist outside of space and time anyway in order to be the one who created the beginning of time and space and matter)

Edited July 12, 2012 by Towelie

[TeeJay410]

What or who created God is a very important question mainly because the trump card theists like to pull is "how can something come from nothing?"

Well, isn't God something? If god is something, and if something can't come from nothing, god cannot come from nothing. So it must be asked where did god come from?

However this falls apart because of an infinite regression. Oh and how something comes from nothing has been basically answered. Find a spare hour, go to YouTube and google Lawrence Krauss a universe from nothing.

[Georgy Zhukov]

The teachings of Christianity basically comes to this. God gave humanity a choice. Adam and Eve blew that by eating the fruit they were told not to eat so they have to live by God so they will be forgiven. Jesus is seen as humanity's second chance. All forgiven if you accept Christ as your savior. You have to mean it though. No fakes.

[shades]

Yeah, before he dropped an absolute fucking bollock and got laughed out of the thread!

If I get laughed out of anywhere by the likes of you, cyber punk, I'll resign from everything.

? what is that, some girly facebook thing, wheres the roflmao?

you take your little google graph and move any of that orbit a mile closer in and your toast, comprende?

and thats not rocket science, people from the stone age know you move your cave toward the equator it gets hotter.

the "point" besides the one on top of your liitle pin head,

was that this perfect little set up we have on earth here, water evaporating, clouds sending more rain, oxygen from the trees and plant life, summer,fall, winter, spring all making these various life support systems keep us alive being a result of a random explosion millions of years ago is just maybe as hard to swallow as the thought of a supreme power that made all this possible. to some of us.

I no more wanted a religous argument than the next guy, the thread title was "concept of Jesus", not Dazey Dukes wonderfull world of google graphs.

I offered my opinion, sorry I didnt spell out my analogy so that even you would get it.

Edited July 12, 2012 by shades

[TeeJay410]

The teachings of Christianity basically comes to this. God gave humanity a choice. Adam and Eve blew that by eating the fruit they were told not to eat so they have to live by God so they will be forgiven. Jesus is seen as humanity's second chance. All forgiven if you accept Christ as your savior. You have to mean it though. No fakes.

Well god seems like a bit of a jerk doesn't he? Condemning us for things we didn't do? Or forgiving us for things someone else did. I'd rather not be spoken to in that tone of voice.

[Sweersa]

While you may have been an accident, I don't believe this universe was.

Intelligent design.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Sweersa

[TeeJay410]

so why dont you shoot us an example of when Christianity "affected" you, or "effects" government policy with something other than making you feel uncomfortable that you dont believe

Oooo I wanna play! I live in north Carolina where recently an amendment banning gay marriage was passed. However in the bill were several provisions defining what a family was, and basically it defined a family as a nuclear family. Mom, dad, and their biological children. This basically fucks single parents or unmarried couples with children as far as taxes are concerned, both decidedly unchristian lifestyles. Also, it a couple has a child and they separate and were on the fathers health insurance, insurance companies can now remove the child from coverage.

How it affects me? I've been dating a girl for two years who has a child from a previous relationship. The state does not define us as a family though we all live together. If we get married and I adopt her son, we are still not a family because I'm not the biological father. Furthermore, her son was kicked off his father's health insurance because of this. The father even tried to fight to keep it. Now to insure him, considering we're not a family, it costs a ridiculous amount more. All because we aren't a typical Christian family, with children out of wedlock and no marriages.

That's how religion has affected me personally. Shit, and I wasn't even a believer before all that happened. This didn't confirm my disbelief, but it did enforce my notion that religion does large amounts of harm to innocent people, even the religious themselves.

[Dazey]

you take your little google graph and move any of that orbit a mile closer in and your toast, comprende?

and thats not rocket science, people from the stone age know you move your cave toward the equator it gets hotter.

Move that orbit a mile closer and the extremities of that orbit would move a mile closer you dullard! We vary in distance from the sun by THREE MILLION MILES throughout the course of the year! One mile is going to make utterly fuck all difference! It's well inside the margin of error for measurent for starters! Please honestly show me where you read this utter utter load of bollocks cos I really would love to see it! What you're effectively saying is that the we can move closer to the sun by three million miles from the farthest point in our orbit but woe betide us all if we got to three million and one!

[Graeme]

you take your little google graph and move any of that orbit a mile closer in and your toast, comprende?

and thats not rocket science, people from the stone age know you move your cave toward the equator it gets hotter.

Move that orbit a mile closer and the extremities of that orbit would move a mile closer you dullard! We vary in distance from the sun by THREE MILLION MILES throughout the course of the year! One mile is going to make utterly fuck all difference! It's well inside the margin of error for measurent for starters! Please honestly show me where you read this utter utter load of bollocks cos I really would love to see it! What you're effectively saying is that the we can move closer to the sun by three million miles from the farthest point in our orbit but woe betide us all if we got to three million and one!

Game, set and match.

[Dazey]

you take your little google graph and move any of that orbit a mile closer in and your toast, comprende?

and thats not rocket science, people from the stone age know you move your cave toward the equator it gets hotter.

Move that orbit a mile closer and the extremities of that orbit would move a mile closer you dullard! We vary in distance from the sun by THREE MILLION MILES throughout the course of the year! One mile is going to make utterly fuck all difference! It's well inside the margin of error for measurent for starters! Please honestly show me where you read this utter utter load of bollocks cos I really would love to see it! What you're effectively saying is that the we can move closer to the sun by three million miles from the farthest point in our orbit but woe betide us all if we got to three million and one!

Game, set and match.

Also to move "just any" part of that orbit would contravene the law of gravity. Just sayin'

Edited July 12, 2012 by Dazey

[MEXzilla]

What or who created God is a very important question mainly because the trump card theists like to pull is "how can something come from nothing?"

Well, isn't God something? If god is something, and if something can't come from nothing, god cannot come from nothing. So it must be asked where did god come from?

However this falls apart because of an infinite regression. Oh and how something comes from nothing has been basically answered. Find a spare hour, go to YouTube and google Lawrence Krauss a universe from nothing.

I read his book, very interesting stuff but its not a proof tho. Good stuff tho n that very question will be ask for ever I think.

[Desperado]

I think I want to marry Dazy

But damn right-wing christians wouldn't let us

[shades]

Game, set and match.

and the cupcakes come out

look,

those that choose to think that there was this big explosion, a bunch of rocks scattered across the universe, and one of those rocks settled into this perfect elipticle orbit circling around a

life sustaining fireball that helped make organizisms evolve into species of all different shapes and sizes, some even complete with intellegence to advance us to our present state of space travel and typing arguments to cupcakes over cyberspace,

and all the beautiful wonders that are this amazing gift we call earth and life, without the help of a supreme "God" for lack of a better word.

thats your choice.

for those of us who believe in God, and only with him all this is possible,

thats our choice.

Jesus is faith, not a concept

[Dazey]

look,

those that choose to think that there was this big explosion, a bunch of rocks scattered across the universe, and one of those rocks settled into this perfect elipticle orbit circling around a

life sustaining fireball that helped make organizisms evolve into species of all different shapes and sizes, some even complete with intellegence to advance us to our present state of space travel and typing arguments to cupcakes over cyberspace,

and all the beautiful wonders that are this amazing gift we call earth and life, without the help of a supreme "God" for lack of a better word.

thats your choice.

for those of us who believe in God, and only with him all this is possible,

thats our choice.

Jesus is faith, not a concept

Again you've not done your research! The big bang didn't throw any rocks into space at all and nobody said it did. Not sure what you mean by that cos as far as I was aware there were no rocks or even solid materials in the universe for millions or even billions of years? This elliptical orbit is perfectly explained by gravitational theory and there are billions of other rocks and planets in orbit around billions of other stars and planets in the universe that bizarrely enough don't seem to support life. Also that shift in orbit you were so sure would end all life on this planet has been going on since the birth of the planet. It's been happening for billions of years, it's happening now and it will continue to happen yet we're still here. Strange huh?

Edited July 12, 2012 by Dazey